45-70 for dangerous game?

[RickB]

Ok, I am not a reloader or a ph. I did some searches to see if this question has been asked before and didn't see any. So here is my question. My sad and I where discussing DG rifles the other day. He has a newer model marlin lever action in 45-70. Could you make up a dangerous game load for it? I know you can get the bullets from Hornady and the like. With modern powders I feel you could get the velocity needed. The current hornady leverevolution in 45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy. That is close to a .416 ruger.(2400 fps 5000 ft lbs with a 400 gr bullet) I would not use a factory load because of the bullet. This would be hand load only. So thoughts? Is it even legal to use?

 

[nsok]

http://www.africahunting.com/firearms-ammunition-general/3177-strong-action-45-70-buffalo.html

RickB, I hope it helps

 

[RickB]

I did a bunch of searches for .45-70 and nothing came up. Thanks for making me look dumb! Lol

Thanks......That was the thread I was trying to find.

 

[James.Grage]

Rick

Please look at the data again.
"45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy"
.416 ruger. with a 400 gr bullet @ (2400 fps 5000 ft lbs of energy)

You can look at this through what ever color glasses you chose, however,This is not even close...

The current hornady leverevolution in 45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy. That is close to a .416 ruger.(2400 fps 5000 ft lbs with a 400 gr bullet)
So thoughts? Is it even legal to use?

 

[enysse]

Minimum Equipment Requirements for Rifle Hunting in Zimbabwe
Class A Game
5300 Joule = 3909 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 9.2mm about .366 in diameter
(Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)
Class B Game
4300 Joule = 3171 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 7.0mm about .284 in diameter
(Lion, Giraffe, Eland)
Class C Game
3000 Joule = 2212 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 7.0mm .284 in diameter
(Leopard, Crocodile, Kudu, Oryx / Gemsbok, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Zebra, Nyala, Sable Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
Class D Game
850 Joule = 627 ft. lbs
Minimum caliber 5.56mm .223 in diameter
(Warthog, Impala, Reedbuck, Sitatunga, Duiker, Steenbok, Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)

The current hornady leverevolution in 45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy.

Is it legal? nope, not for dangerous game.

.416 ruger.(2400 fps 5000 ft lbs with a 400 gr bullet)

It's legal for everything.

 

[RickB]

Rick

Please look at the data again.
"45-70 is a 325gr bullet @ 2050 fps and 3032 lbs of energy"
.416 ruger. with a 400 gr bullet @ (2400 fps 5000 ft lbs of energy)

You can look at this through what ever color glasses you chose, however,This is not even close...

I know they are not apples to apples. But my thinking is what you lack in one area (fps) you make up in another (energy). 45-70 is usually loaded light. Hornady only makes dangerous game bullets .458 @ 500gr. If you propel that at 2000 fps+....that's arround 4400 ft lbs of energy. That is more equal. I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not a reloader so this may not even be possible!. I read in another forum of 2200 fps and a 500 gr bullet from a 45-70. That's equal to 5400 ft lbs. That will kill your shoulder as well as a buffalo. Again this could all be fantasy because I don't know how true or even if that is possible?

 

[RickB]

Ok I am wrong. I looked up the post again and it was a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fps. That is about 4200 ft lbs. So can you actually put a 500 grain bullet into a 45-70 and make it go 2200+ fps? I am thinking no way?

 

[huntingbigun]

I hand load for a 45-70 in a Pistol (encore) and old rolling block, no way to get that slow sucker up anywhere close to 2200 with 500 grain unless you put pistol powder in it and then tie a string around the trigger and watch it go BOOM. I not a PH or been to Africa (yet) but I do reload a bunch them books do not tell the complete story more to it than FPS, BUY ya a 375HH and slap im

 

[ikeda]

Buffalo Bore ammo loads several snot slinger loads for 45-70. But the best they can do is about 3600fp of energy. (405gr SP @ 2000 fps)
Will this kill a Buffalo...undoubtedly, if the bullet is tough enough to hold together. But is it legal...not quite.

 

[Diamondhitch]

The 45-70 was the choice of NA buffalo hunters and renouned for being able to go end for end on a Buffalo at 1000 paces. True or not the near extinction of once uncountable numbers of animals is tribute to the 45-70s ability to get the job done on big tough game.

 

[sestoppelman]

I love these theoretical discussions! The .45-70 can and has in fact killed African buffalo. Does it make the minimum specs? Depends on the country. Can it drive a 500 gr bullet over 2000 fps? No way. Often the .458 Win mag has trouble making the grade. Can it drive a 400 gr bullet over 2000 fps? Depends on the gun, load etc but yes its possible. Is that enough for buffalo? Absolutely if legal and or the PH allows it. Much would depend on as always the bullet quality and shot placement. Where have we heard that before!? In the good old days of safari the combination of 400 grs @ 2000 fps was considered a good minimum for dangerous game, meaning it should still work today.

 

[ikeda]

I love these theoretical discussions! The .45-70 can and has in fact killed African buffalo. Does it make the minimum specs? Depends on the country. Can it drive a 500 gr bullet over 2000 fps? No way. Often the .458 Win mag has trouble making the grade. Can it drive a 400 gr bullet over 2000 fps? Depends on the gun, load etc but yes its possible. Is that enough for buffalo? Absolutely if legal and or the PH allows it. Much would depend on as always the bullet quality and shot placement. Where have we heard that before!? In the good old days of safari the combination of 400 grs @ 2000 fps was considered a good minimum for dangerous game, meaning it should still work today.

In which country is it legal to take Dangerous Games with a cartridge that produces 3600 fp of muzzle energy?
I'm not being sarcastic...I am just curious.
I agree that it should be legal, but is it?

 

[sestoppelman]

I cannot tell you that. Its just my opinion that at least one African country would allow it. Some countries have different specs for different animals, even DG. As in leopard and lion. They often dont require the same energy levels as buff and ele, correct? So right there the .45-70 in its hotter form would be legal for "dangerous game".

 

[nsok]

Same doubt for me but with 9,3x62 (366) from my knowledge it does not reach 4000 fp but I think in some countries allow you to use it in a Buff hunt, legally or not? South Africa, Zimbabwe?

 

[daggaboyblog]

I had a mate asking about how viable it would be to take a Baikal double rifle chambered for the .45/70 as a dangerous game rifle on a trip he is panning. My advice was don't do it! And I can't imagine a PH that would let you in camp with that combination.

Another friend who shot hundreds of buffalo in Australa n the 1980's went from the .375H&H to .458 Win and then the .458 Ackley Magnum; and that's where he stopped. Happy with his buffalo gun. So I shoot with the same and it's a brilliantly powerful cartridge.

There's plenty of info around that purports the .45/70 to be at least adequate:
45-70 in Africa?
Garrett Cartridges Inc.
Rifles & Guns for African Game

 

[sestoppelman]

The 9.3x62 is sometimes quoted as having some factory loads that develop over 4k energy. Personally having spent some time developing loads for this round; I dont buy it. In the later editions of Cartridges of the World the editor made note of this, writing (optimistic) after loads that made such claims. It is after all only slightly larger of a case than the '06. And even though there are those who make similar claims for the .35 Whelen (not larger than the '06 case) and say its no big deal to get nearly 4k energy with it too.. Well? Years ago when Kenya and probably Tanzania as well decreed the .375 H&H as minimum for DG, they allowed the 9.3 to continue to be used in the hands of the locals. I dont know if that still stands today or in what other countries it may also be true.

 

[nsok]

Thank you Sestoppelman, average factory I can see are around 3600fp but I have asked some PH about this and they told me that they prefer a guy who can manage well a 9,3x62 better than a flinch with a 375H&H or bigger...I suppose that as always...goog placement and good bullet, but legal?

 

[sestoppelman]

In the interest of accuracy; My Speer book which I ususally consider about the most realistic in given velocities lists for the 9.3x62 several loads that approach 2600 fps with their 270 gr bullet for nearly 4000 pounds of muzzle energy. Test rifle has a 26" barrel. I figured I was doing well to get 2600 fps with a 250 gr bullet! I know of one member here who also states he gets this kind of power out of his 9.3 as well and I have no reason to not believe him so perhaps its more do-able than I led you to believe. Just that I have not done it. But I often tend to underestimate what others are willing to try.

 

[ikeda]

A little bit of looking and I came up with an RWS 9.3x62 factory load that comes within 73fp of the 3903fp of energy (5300 J) required by Zimbabwe regulations.

 

[sestoppelman]

There ya go. I would bet money however that if you ran those over a chrony it would say otherwise. What was the specific load and bullet weight?