45-70 for dangerous game?

[ikeda]

This would be the RWS item number 2119242 which is a 293gr. UNI (TUG?) @ 2427fps from a 23.6" barrel.
I'm betting the RWS numbers are pretty darn close to actual performance.

A look at "Real Guns.com" load data shows 19 out of 36 loads that meet or exceed the 3900fp energy requirements, with bullets ranging from 270gr to 325gr, using a Ruger M77 with 23" barrel. The most common powders used were H414, Re-17, and IMR 4895.
A check of 45-70 loads showed 3500/3600fp of energy as the maximum attainable.

I'm sure most have heard of Kevin Robertson's 9.3x62 that he said had taken over 650 buffalo in its time, and how he actually preferred it for his clients because they usually shot it better than a bigger rifle.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well it may. Tell ya what. You buy some and try it out and report back to the forum with results, LOL! Thats pricey stuff.

 

[Diamondhitch]

I may be totally wrong here but I have a copy of the Norms and standards for hunting methods in South Africa released in May 27, 2011 by the dept of environmental affairs. It does not state a minimum caliber or energy for any game simply minimum bullet weights. Cape Buffalo is listed as 250gr and all thick skin game (including buffalo) must be of monolithic solid or full metal jacket construction.

Archery gear has both arrow weight and energy requirements of an 750gr arrow with 80ft/lb of energy.

 

[ikeda]

Well I would be happy to.... but according to the RWS web site, the nearest distributor is in Ireland, yikes!

I did luck up on to about 500 RWS 9.3mm 258gr H Mantel bullets about a year ago. The best bullet out there for Kudu and smaller game. Acts like a small bomb in the chest cavity. That will do me, my son and nephew for a looong time.

 

[ikeda]

I may be totally wrong here but I have a copy of the Norms and standards for hunting methods in South Africa released in May 27, 2011 by the dept of environmental affairs. It does not state a minimum caliber or energy for any game simply minimum bullet weights. Cape Buffalo is listed as 250gr and all thick skin game (including buffalo) must be of monolithic solid or full metal jacket construction.

Archery gear has both arrow weight and energy requirements of an 750gr arrow with 80ft/lb of energy.

Interesting....that is one thing I have noticed about Africa....sometimes finding out exactly what is OK can sometimes be a challenge.

 

[sestoppelman]

Isnt it also interesting that most countries establish minimum energy levels for suitable ammunition but as stated above if using archery equipment which has less energy than a .22 short.., no worries! Energy? We dont need no stinking energy!!

 

[Diamondhitch]

Isnt it also interesting that most countries establish minimum energy levels for suitable ammunition but as stated above if using archery equipment which has less energy than a .22 short.., no worries! Energy? We dont need no stinking energy!!

I cant explain it but its hard to argue with actual pentration. I have shot Caribou at 25yds and gone end to end shattering the femur using a 418gr arrow with 76ft/lb of energy. I equate a 50yd bow shot with a 500yd rifle shot and using that ratio and assuming no big bone hits and a well tuned arrow I would say on average an arrow out penetrates a bullet most of the time and is equally as effective at killing an animal, KE or not.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I think the 45-70 will work well on Buffalo if you use the bullets from CEB.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=8458
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=9458

 

[William Sandlin]

The 45/70 Works in Africa

Please allow me to differ, Mr. Vincent Lupo has killed the African Dangerous game, I.E. Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Hippo, Rhino, Lion & Leopard with Randy Garrets 45/70 "Hammerhead" Ammunition.

However as always the projectile must be placed properly!

 

[North Wind]

It could work with perfect shot placement, but I don't think I'd recommend it. Especially not out of the old rolling block I load for. I swear sometimes I think I can see the bullet exiting the bore of that old smoke wagon.

 

[Bobpuckett]

In which country is it legal to take Dangerous Games with a cartridge that produces 3600 fp of muzzle energy?
I'm not being sarcastic...I am just curious.
I agree that it should be legal, but is it?

South Africa if my memory serves me right.

 

[Bobpuckett]

I may be totally wrong here but I have a copy of the Norms and standards for hunting methods in South Africa released in May 27, 2011 by the dept of environmental affairs. It does not state a minimum caliber or energy for any game simply minimum bullet weights. Cape Buffalo is listed as 250gr and all thick skin game (including buffalo) must be of monolithic solid or full metal jacket construction.

Archery gear has both arrow weight and energy requirements of an 750gr arrow with 80ft/lb of energy.

You are correct, what I have researched on South Africa they have no minimum calibers for DG and as for 45/70 falling block or bolt action and using modern loads they meet the requirements for all countrys if using energy levels, and when I say modern it does not include lever acion or trapdoor rifles.

 

[RickB]

Ok...we have now come full circle. We started with its not possible to use the 45-70 to we can use it? I know some countries have no min for DG and some do. I am short on time right now so I can't search for a thread. But is there a thread here on AH that has the rules for DG for each country? I thought I saw one a while back? Not sure though.

 

[Mike70560]

Rick,

Zimbabwe requirements

Minimum Equipment Requirements for Rifle Hunting in Zimbabwe
Class A Game
5300 Joule = 3909 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 9.2mm about .366 in diameter
(Elephant, Hippo, Buffalo)
Class B Game
4300 Joule = 3171 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 7.0mm about .284 in diameter
(Lion, Giraffe, Eland)
Class C Game
3000 Joule = 2212 ft. lbs.
Minimum caliber 7.0mm .284 in diameter
(Leopard, Crocodile, Kudu, Oryx / Gemsbok, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Zebra, Nyala, Sable Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
Class D Game
850 Joule = 627 ft. lbs
Minimum caliber 5.56mm .223 in diameter
(Warthog, Impala, Reedbuck, Sitatunga, Duiker, Steenbok, Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)

The 45-70 can barely make the requirement in Zim. It is stretching its capabilities.

Will it work in the real world? Yes/maybe. There are so many better choices than shooting a round stretched far beyond what it was designed to do.

In regards to Mr. Garrett, none of his ammo makes the grade for energy in Zim. Again, I am not saying it will not work, there just much better legal choices. No game scout will check your FPE.

Also in regards to Mr. Garrett's test, my results have been much different. With quality solids such as North Fork, Cutting Edge Bullets, and Barnes (Flat Nose) the more velocity the better they penetrated. My tests were also conducted with saturated newspaper. A 458 Lott at 2220 FPS would shoot through 72" of wet newspaper, the 2 By 6 in the back of the box, and continue on it merry way. I had to add lumber to keep the bullet in the box. Lower velocities produced less penetration.

Here is a video of a 470 test at around 2100 FPS.

 

[norfolk shooter]

I've been thinking the same could it be used against DG? I have found a load that will push a 300grn bullet at 2424fps developing 3914 ft lbs at the muzzle dropping to 2092 ft lbs at 100 yards. Would that be sufficient??

 

[sestoppelman]

A 45-70 load does better with a heavier bullet, a 300gr .458 bullet is lacking in ballistic properties. Its nearly round! Go with 400 grs at around 2000-2100, then you have a load that is adequate for anything. Not a first choice round perhaps, but it should do the job. Nothing magic about a 45-70, but its certainly no pantywaist either.

 

[enysse]

I agree with sestoppelman and there was a interesting article or story from Pete Swanepoel on the 45-70. Pete is a member of AH, I wish he would share his information. Spike t might know him as well as others on here.

 

[spike.t]

i have only met him a couple of times, but you can sometimes bump into him at the bar in rhapsodys restaurant in lusaka, :beer:

 

[enysse]

I figured you knew him :beer:. He has done a lot of experimental loading with 45-70, including bullet design to make it a dangerous game caliber. Not that I'm sticking up for 45-70, just saying people never stop improving the caliber.

 

[Spudattack]

I think it is all very well technically and legally being able to kill DG with a 45/70, but it all turns to nothing when your PH tells you to stick your 45/70 up your arse and use the safari companies' .375!