458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott

[Forrest Halley]

Wow! Who's upset now? Touched a nerve?

The comment he made wasn't lip service, as you assume, as it was directed towards a group of other PHs we were with. It's cheap for you to call a comment as anecdotal, but nevertheless it was made in no connection to him fishing for a future salary, or, by me "pot stirring" as you seem to believe. When I got my 458 Win Mag, the Lott was still very much a wildcat which faced abortion if no company cared take it on. In the decades since, I've done quite a bit of hunting with it, and love it because the 458 Win Mag is very capable in doing the job I want. Period, and that's the point I made. But IMO your thinking and attitude, in your responses, reveals much more about your character than anything else.

In kind, it makes me happy, too, that every time you "touch one off", you'll never forget the fact that you're perpetuating the culmination of one man's error of judgement - compounded by his refusal to later admit to it - so all I can say is: enjoy your touching!!

In kind, too, please don't forget, too, that there are far better calibres than either the 458 Win Mag or the Lott - 500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs (which does work in a bolt action) etc. With much better calibres around why not get a 577 Tyranosaur? Then you could enjoy "pot stirring" with everybody else here - if indeed that's your game.

To clarify: My comment was purely pot stirring and I am not upset in the least nor programmed to register you whilst shooting. I personally don't take any satisfaction from being complimented on my skills or abilities with firearms. It's a given requirement for the hunt and a checked box when fulfilled and a lamentation when unrealized.

I enjoy the utility of the chambering in accommodation of two case lengths and a myriad of bullets available for practice and hunting. If I had known about a .375 Weatherby before my .375 H&H's I would have likely gone that route.

I appreciate your wit in reply. It made me smile.

I am aware that there are far better calibres than the .458's both above and below. Some are historically limited from realizing their full potential. I think the .416 Rigby is an all around better cartridge, but suffers in availability of economic practice projectiles. I am quite content with being excluded from the great tier of .50 and above stopping rifles. I have fired a .505 Gibbs and it was a rewarding experience, but I do not have a desire to load for one. As far as the horsepower behemoths go why not just load a .50 BMG and realize ultimate power while retaining some economy and brass availability?

 

[Timbo]

To clarify: My comment was purely pot stirring and I am not upset in the least nor programmed to register you whilst shooting. I personally don't take any satisfaction from being complimented on my skills or abilities with firearms. It's a given requirement for the hunt and a checked box when fulfilled and a lamentation when unrealized.

I enjoy the utility of the chambering in accommodation of two case lengths and a myriad of bullets available for practice and hunting. If I had known about a .375 Weatherby before my .375 H&H's I would have likely gone that route.

I appreciate your wit in reply. It made me smile.

I am aware that there are far better calibres than the .458's both above and below. Some are historically limited from realizing their full potential. I think the .416 Rigby is an all around better cartridge, but suffers in availability of economic practice projectiles. I am quite content with being excluded from the great tier of .50 and above stopping rifles. I have fired a .505 Gibbs and it was a rewarding experience, but I do not have a desire to load for one. As far as the horsepower behemoths go why not just load a .50 BMG and realize ultimate power while retaining some economy and brass availability?

Neither do I, but on the subject of pot stirring, I've read some of your posts where you've done the same (deliberate) thing. FYI I'm all for some good natured ribbing, but remember too, that some people here have had to work damn hard to license and/or meet strict calibre/energy restrictions in their home country to obtain their pride and joy. So taking a gentle ribbing any further than that, is quite obtuse, disrespectful, and somewhat adolescent in my view. As for shooting ability being a given, PHs still lament guys who go on safaris where they expect to learn to shoot, fit the scope and sight in their rifle, upon arrival: either that or they've brought a rifle without getting some range time with, or too powerful for them to handle. This sort of thing, though hopefully on the decline, may never be eradicated. (And before you say it: anecdotal, yes, but I know of some incidents of truly horrible shooting capability and ability!)

I'm not bothered if you remember me or not when shooting - but you'll never forget the fact that the Lott was created solely because of one man's stupid error and obstinancy. Thus in fact the legacy of that event is the Lott.

I'm glad you enjoyed my comments - as it confirms you do have a degree of cognition after all.

As for getting a 50 BMG - I've never had the desire to find something bigger or better as the 458 Win Mag suits my needs - and does the job beautifully! - without fuss from a standard length action.

 

[Major Khan]

I have been following this debate for the past few days and l see many knowledgeable gentlemen give their well thought out opinions on this matter. Therefore , l thought l might as well give mine .
I am not saying that the .458 Winchester magnum is a BAD calibre . That would be authoritative of me and somewhat arrogant . I will merely say that based on my personal experiences as a professional shikaree in Nagpur , India from 1961 to 1970 , l do not like the .458 Winchester magnum calibre 1 bit . A little bit of background is requisite . During the time of my career , ICI Kynoch had officially ceased production of ALL their centre fire rifle cartridges ( for example : .450/400 Nitro Express , .476 Westley Richards , etc . ) in 1963 ( unofficially , they had ceased production at least 1 or 2 years before . ) . Therefore , during this time the only 2 large bore rifle calibres which my foreign clients used to bring to India for shikar used to be the :
1) .375 Holland & Holland magnum .
2) .458 Winchester magnum
More over , there was a rule enacted in 13 States of the 30 states of India that you cannot use anything smaller than a .375 Nitro Express calibre rifle for hunting royal Bengal tigers ( the animal which l used to guide foreign clients the most for ) , water buffaloes or gaur bison .
It goes without saying that l have seen dozens of .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles in use during their hey day ( as well as firing them . ) during those 10 years .
I have personally had no less than 12 bad experiences with clients who attempted to use this calibre on dangerous game .

In those days , the 2 options for factory loaded ammunition for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre were :
1) Winchester
2) Remington Peters ( from 1961 onwards )
Hornady bullets were available as a hand loading component .
Solid bullets were a 500 grain " full metal jacket " solid metal covered bullet .
Soft point bullets were a 510 grain expanding bullet.

My very main problem with the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge is that it is conceptually wrong in my book .
Let us use the world's most perfect cartridge as an example : The time honoured .375 Holland & Holland magnum . It uses a 3 inch case and fires a 300 grain bullet at extremely optimal velocities .
The .458 Winchester magnum uses a 500 grain bullet ( that is 200 grains heavier than the .375 Holland & Holland magnum ) , yet it uses a case which is 0.5 inches less. Ergo , a smaller powder charge.
Just by design alone , this is a bad idea.
In the 1960s , the Winchester and Remington ammunition was loaded to achieve a velocity of 2150 feet per second. Now , yes. When it accomplished what it was advertised to do , the calibre worked like a charm . However , the problem lies here :
The .458 Winchester magnum did not always deliver what it promised to. .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition from both Remington and Winchester had a relatively short shelf life compared to other calibres ( such as the .375 Holland & Holland magnum ) . People who stock piled .458 Winchester magnum ammunition for a few years before bringing it to India for shikar , always had ammunition which developed very erratic velocities ( and thus , penetration was poor on thick skinned game such as gaur or water buffalo . ) . FRESH ammunition more often than not DID achieve the advertised velocity of 2150 feet per second. However , factory loaded ammunition lying unused for a few years , developed a reduction of potency of the powder propellant . Velocities often dropped below 2000 feet per second .
Compare this to the .375 Holland & Holland magnum cartridge . I have personally seen massive stocks of old ICI Kynoch .375 calibre ammunition ( all of which were left behind in India , prior to 1947 ) , which performed satisfactorily on Indian dangerous game .
Also , as the propellant powder aged , it would slowly force the bullets out of the cartridge cases . This caused jams on Fabrique Nationale Mauser /Browning Safari Hi Power bolt rifles which was a short action .
There was another problem related to the .458 Winchester magnum calibre ( albeit this 1 had nothing to do with the calibre ) . The 500 grain solid metal covered bullets produced by Winchester in the late 1960s ( I noticed it in 1967 ) had flimsily constructed " jackets " which would deform when fired into the rib bones or shoulder bones of gaur bison or water buffalo.

My shikar partner , an American gentleman named Tobin Stakkatz in fact lost a kidney and almost lost his life in 1969 in an incident involving a gaur bison which was wounded by a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle . I have provided a report of that incident on these forums . He had to retire from guiding shikars for dangerous game after that incident .
Even after l retired from being a professional shikaree in 1971 , l closely followed the developments in .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition for many years . In around 1980 , Winchester and Remington both down loaded the powder charge in their .458 Winchester magnum calibre ammunition and made it 2040 feet per second , in an attempt to improve shelf life . This improved shelf life , but another problem now arose .
I refer you all to a book named " Ballistics in Perspective " written by 1 Mr. LaGrange ; an elephant culler who has slain upwards of 6000 elephants in Zimbabwe until he retired in 1990 . His department was issued .458 Winchester magnum calibre Fabrique Nationale Mauser bolt rifles .

The down loaded velocity of 2040 feet per second proved inadequate for frontal brain shots on big bull elephants .
From 1984 onwards , The Zimbabwe Department of National Parks and Wild Life Management , were supplied ammunition by A Square , which used Remington Peters cartridge cases , loaded with 500 grain Hornady solid metal covered bullets. These were loaded to the original 1960s velocity of 2150 feet per second and fresh ammunition worked fine . Unfortunately , old ammunition began to develop the same problems as the original Winchester and Remington ammunition from the 1960s - erratic velocities . This ammunition was eventually scraped and from 1991 onwards , A Square began to supply the national parks with ammunition that was loaded with 465 grain A Square monolithic solid bullets . This ammunition , after being stored for a few years , ALSO began to develop erratic velocities.

Now , to be fair ... I openly admit that my personal experience with the .458 Winchester magnum was in the 1960s and early 1970s and the book which l refer to , was published in 1990. Developments in propellant powders and bullets have come a very long way in the last 50 years. Many gentlemen on African Hunting Forums have had excellent luck with the .458 Winchester magnum. The most popular method to get a higher velocity and better shelf life from the .458 Winchester magnum seems to be , by using a 480 grain bullet as opposed to a 500 grain bullet.
If l was still guiding clients for shikar today , and a gentleman showed up with a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle , l would be perfectly willing to guide that client and in all probability , he would probably be fine .
However , for me ... I suppose that l am unnaturally biased against it . I occasionally do a little internet “ window shopping “ of different rifle companies . Most rifle companies these days do not even list a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle . The exceptions would be ( to the best of my knowledge ) :
Winchester Model 70 Safari Express
Zastava Model 70
Schultz & Larsen Ambassador & Victory models ( push feed)
Steyr Mannlicher CL II ( push feed )
This to me , looks as if most rifle makers do not really care much for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre anymore either .In Fact , l did a survey for African Hunting Forums 2 months ago titled “ your favorite 2 rifle & 1 shot gun combination “ . Out of all the people that posted , not 1 opted for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle as their 1st choice .

To me , even though l have no personal experience with the .458 Lott , it seems like an ideal improvement on the .458 Winchester magnum , as it has a longer cartridge case, capable of holding a larger charger of powder , without needing to be compressed or having high pressure .
I have no idea how hot South Africa can be , but if it is anywhere as hot as India , then a high pressure cartridge like the .458 Winchester magnum is far from ideal . Extraction problems can lead to rather grave consequences , especially if dangerous game is concerned.

 

[Timbo]

I have been following this debate for the past few days and l see many knowledgeable gentlemen give their well thought out opinions on this matter. Therefore , l thought l might .....

My dear Major,

You hit the nail splendidly on the head in describing the short-comings of the factory ammunition which tarnished the reputation of the 458 Win Mag nearly 50yrs ago. Reloading in those days did not have the benefit of research, reloading data or the more efficient and better powders and projectiles that we have available today. Even as quoted in the book during a period of nearly 40yrs ago the ammunition was faulty: again due to the effects of the climate upon the powder. But I'm sure that any ammunition stored for a period of time in either tropical or African climes would also suffer dramatic, adverse, deviations in performance.

You are correct, too, in stating the optimum projectile seems to be around 450-480gr for the 458 Win Mag - on thick-skinned DG. When I was in Zambia a PH friend shared our camp who, when told I had a 458WM, waxed lyrical from his experiences over it's performance using 450gr projectiles (I can forward his name if needs be). Woodleigh have developed 480gr projectiles, and Barnes have their 450gr-ers - each allowing for more powder capacity without compression - of which I believe both perform beautifully. True, the Lott may have a slight edge in velocity given a few more grains by the extra case capacity - but there again, the game we hunt hasn't changed - so to me the point is moot.

Also there is a couple of safety factors that make me remain faithful to my 458. First is - unlike the 375HH - the 458 Win Mag is a charge stopping calibre on thick-skinned DG. So the last thing I want is to be standing with a 375HH - with an enraged buff thundering down on me - only to turn and look forlornly at the PH in the fervent hope that his charge stopper can save our butts!! I feel so much happier knowing that I've got my 458 in my hands, thanks! Secondly, my current battery for Africa: .30/06, 9.3x62 and .458 Win Mag, are all standard length actions - so not for me is the risk of short-stroking the bolt at the critical moment!!

But whether the 458 Win Mag is to lose popularity remains to be seen. The same thing was said about the 9.3's but they're still here. As I see it, the biggest threat to the 458 Win Mag - and to every other DG calibre for that matter - is not from the rise in popularity of a new calibre, but from the ever increasing voice of (ignorant, maligned and prejudicial) opinion against hunting, along with the increasing political sophistication and commercial collaboration being railed against us.

So while we indulge in squabbling over calibres, "they" have not only successfully challenged and won their Court battle to disband Trump's "Trophy Hunting Council" but furthermore, it can never be formed - in any guise - ever again!! We as hunters can only blame ourselves for not staying active and vigilant towards this ever present threat. What occurred in India, may (and still can!) occur world-wide - all it takes is time, and our complacency, to achieve.

Cheers!
Tim

 

[Major Khan]

My dear Major,

You hit the nail splendidly on the head in describing the short-comings of the factory ammunition which tarnished the reputation of the 458 Win Mag nearly 50yrs ago. Reloading in those days did not have the benefit of research, reloading data or the more efficient and better powders and projectiles that we have available today. Even as quoted in the book during a period of nearly 40yrs ago the ammunition was faulty: again due to the effects of the climate upon the powder. But I'm sure that any ammunition stored for a period of time in either tropical or African climes would also suffer dramatic, adverse, deviations in performance.

You are correct, too, in stating the optimum projectile seems to be around 450-480gr for the 458 Win Mag - on thick-skinned DG. When I was in Zambia a PH friend shared our camp who, when told I had a 458WM, waxed lyrical from his experiences over it's performance using 450gr projectiles (I can forward his name if needs be). Woodleigh have developed 480gr projectiles, and Barnes have their 450gr-ers - each allowing for more powder capacity without compression - of which I believe both perform beautifully. True, the Lott may have a slight edge in velocity given a few more grains by the extra case capacity - but there again, the game we hunt hasn't changed - so to me the point is moot.

Also there is a couple of safety factors that make me remain faithful to my 458. First is - unlike the 375HH - the 458 Win Mag is a charge stopping calibre on thick-skinned DG. So the last thing I want is to be standing with a 375HH - with an enraged buff thundering down on me - only to turn and look forlornly at the PH in the fervent hope that his charge stopper can save our butts!! I feel so much happier knowing that I've got my 458 in my hands, thanks! Secondly, my current battery for Africa: .30/06, 9.3x62 and .458 Win Mag, are all standard length actions - so not for me is the risk of short-stroking the bolt at the critical moment!!

But whether the 458 Win Mag is to lose popularity remains to be seen. The same thing was said about the 9.3's but they're still here. As I see it, the biggest threat to the 458 Win Mag - and to every other DG calibre for that matter - is not from the rise in popularity of a new calibre, but from the ever increasing voice of (ignorant, maligned and prejudicial) opinion against hunting, along with the increasing political sophistication and commercial collaboration being railed against us.

So while we indulge in squabbling over calibres, "they" have not only successfully challenged and won their Court battle to disband Trump's "Trophy Hunting Council" but furthermore, it can never be formed - in any guise - ever again!! We as hunters can only blame ourselves for not staying active and vigilant towards this ever present threat. What occurred in India, may (and still can!) occur world-wide - all it takes is time, and our complacency, to achieve.

Cheers!
Tim

Thank you so much for the insightful response , Timbo. Your logic is sound and reasonable .
I 100 % agree with you that a properly performing .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle makes for a FAR better charge stopper than a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre rifle.
Let us use a gaur bison , as an example .
During my time , as a professional shikaree , we did not have any controlled expansion soft point bullets , like you gentlemen fortunately have today . It was either a soft point bullet or a solid metal covered bullet . Among soft point bullets , the Winchester Silvertip soft points were the only 1s which were guaranteed not to deform in a rifle's magazine due to the recoil . Among solid metal covered bullets , Hornady produced the best products . Their 500 grain solid metal covered bullet ( available as a hand loading component ) used to have a remarkably thick steel jacket .
If a client attempted to hunt a gaur with a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre rifle , then a broad side double lung shot with a 300 grain Winchester Silvertip would drop them nicely provided that the angling was PERFECT. The Winchester Silvertip would open up nicely inside the lungs of the gaur and create a massive wound cavity . If , however the gaur was wounded and decided to escape or charge the shikar party , then solid metal covered bullets were used for follow up shots back in those days.
A .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre 300 grain solid metal covered bullet makes for a very minute hole in the heart of a gaur . I have , on multiple occasions seen a gaur shot through the heart with a .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre 300 grain solid metal covered bullet , which remained very much a threat for up to 20 minutes .
A .458 Winchester magnum calibre 500 grain solid metal covered bullet ( if delivering the advertised velocities ) was capable of punching a far larger sized hole in the heart and lungs of gaur bison . This in turn killed them quickly .
It goes without saying , that when using non expanding bullets , the only way to ensure that larger wound cavities are created , is by using a larger calibre .
As you so wisely noted , the .458 Winchester magnum ( when doing what it was advertised to do ) had / has a decided advantage over the .375 Holland & Holland magnum in this context .
Of course , today you have excellent controlled expansion bullets on the market , which have greatly boosted the .375 Holland & Holland magnum's potential for brutes like cape buffalo like Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft points .

May l ask what make and model of rifle , is your. 458 Winchester magnum ?
Also what weight and brand of ammunition do you use in your .458 Winchester magnum ? The 480 grain bullets do a swell job , at rivalling the original English .450 Nitro Express .
You have a splendid battery , Timbo.
A .30-06 Springfield ( plains game ) , a 9.3 × 62 mm Mauser ( heavy plains game ) and a .458 Winchester magnum ( dangerous game ) .
My ideal 3 rifle battery ( based on all the calibres which l have personal experience with ) would be a .243 Winchester , a .375 Holland & Holland magnum and a .476 Westley Richards .

It is very tragic what this world is coming to , and l hope that we ( the international hunting community ) manage to fight back successfully against these delusional vegan tree hugging swines very soon .
I implore all of you gentlemen . Do not let the rest of the world ( including Africa ) ever fall like India . The results will be extremely grim. India is now run by a bunch of cow urine drinking pieces of shit , who like to paint hunters and meat eaters as serial killers . The biggest reason that we moved out of India , was because of that disgusting hunting ban in 1972 .
By the way , here a client of Kawshik's , who slew this 2000 pound male gaur . The rifle was a .458 Winchester magnum calibre double barreled side by side rifle , built by the English company , Holland & Holland .
It was regulated for 500 grain Remington bullets .

 

[Timbo]

Good morning Major,

My 458 Win Mag is an Interarms Mauser Mk.X bolt action. It was originally stocked in a "Ramline" synthetic stock, and I had a Williams peep-sight fitted. I've subsequently thrown away the Ramline" monstrosity, removed the peep, and fitted a fixed Weaver 4x scope on Weaver cross-bolted bases. These bases are very cheap, but the cross bolts garuantee they hold the scope immovable with the heavy recoil. I'd prefer if Weaver had retained their rectangular eyepiece as this would give the scope a wider field of view (and better target acquisition like in the old K3 model) than the standard circular eyepiece the scope came fitted with. The peep-sight now lives permanently in the bottom of my Pelican case that I use for DG hunting: as it's there to back up the scope if it's ever dropped and broken in the field.

I then asked Ken Davis to make a custom timber stock - based on the stock of my Ruger M77 .30/06. Ken is a superb stock maker - renowned for his work - who works from his home in Balga, here in Perth (contact +61 419901621). His customers have included the CEO of Ithaca Arms who flew to his home to discuss some work to be done.

Ken did a superb job, who - without extra cost - added a rosewood tip to the forend, cross bolts, and rosewood borders to the bolt release and peep-sight mount. He also "keyed" into the forend a length of heavy bar to reduce muzzle jump. Then, by hand, he checkered stock with 16 lines to the inch throughout. He also carved the stock with the right amount of cast-off for me. During the fitting process he asked me to shoulder the rifle with my eyes closed, then open them, and tell him where the sights were. Based on my descriptions he then went to work scalloping out the cheek-piece to finely adjust perfect alignment with the sights. He rubbed beeswax into the stock which repels oil and moisture soaking into it, but which also brings out the natural grain of the timber. Again, all this was at no extra charge - the entire stock being built for about US$700.00.

I usually begin "training" at the range for a hunt 6-mths prior to departure, by loading up my favourite two loads, that are extremely accurate in my rifle. I use 72gr of AR2206H powder (made by ADI) using Woodleigh projectiles. For such hunts I double weigh each charge, first on a digital scale, then on a balance scale as a check to ensure that both read the same. Bit getting the exact weight of the powder is very crucial to me, as I believe powder charges dropped by throwers will vary in weight based on whether they are ball or extruded: with each always filling the throwers' hopper differently in each drop. To reduce this variance - and ensure consistency of weight - I first drop 10 loads and weigh that. This method magnifies any errors in each "drop" by a factor of 10. It's then a very simple process to fine tune the thrower to the load I want. In this way I ensure a precise and consistent "drop" for each cartridge, across the batch I'm reloading.

The Woodleigh 500gr RNSN and FMJ projectiles which I use, have identical lengths and BCs, with a very slight difference in SD, which enable me to seat and roll-crimp each projectile, at the same depth without compression. With these measures, my rifle shoots cloverleaf groups off the bench with each respective projectile, that are about 3/4" apart at a POI of 50yds.

Regards,
Tim

 

[Forrest Halley]

Good morning Major,

I usually begin "training" at the range for a hunt 6-mths prior to departure, by loading up my favourite two loads, that are extremely accurate in my rifle. I use 72gr of AR2206H powder (made by ADI) using Woodleigh projectiles. For such hunts I double weigh each charge, first on a digital scale, then on a balance scale as a check to ensure that both read the same. Bit getting the exact weight of the powder is very crucial to me, as I believe powder charges dropped by throwers will vary in weight based on whether they are ball or extruded: with each always filling the throwers' hopper differently in each drop. To reduce this variance - and ensure consistency of weight - I first drop 10 loads and weigh that. This method magnifies any errors in each "drop" by a factor of 10. It's then a very simple process to fine tune the thrower to the load I want. In this way I ensure a precise and consistent "drop" for each cartridge, across the batch I'm reloading.

The Woodleigh 500gr RNSN and FMJ projectiles which I use, have identical lengths and BCs, with a very slight difference in SD, which enable me to seat and roll-crimp each projectile, at the same depth without compression. With these measures, my rifle shoots cloverleaf groups off the bench with each respective projectile, that are about 3/4" apart at a POI of 50yds.

Regards,
Tim

I have never been able to satisfy myself with hopper throws for extruded powders. I throw and weigh and trickle. H4350 and H4895 and H1000 are my loves, but demand a lot of time to get exactly right. Winchester 760 throws exactly the same every time. Noticed no variation over twenty charges and moved on with life. It also feels like it recoils less. Have you considered a digital powder thrower?

 

[Timbo]

I have never been able to satisfy myself with hopper throws for extruded powders. I throw and weigh and trickle. H4350 and H4895 and H1000 are my loves, but demand a lot of time to get exactly right. Winchester 760 throws exactly the same every time. Noticed no variation over twenty charges and moved on with life. It also feels like it recoils less. Have you considered a digital powder thrower?

Yep, I know what you mean when!! Those extruded powders are annoying to throw consistently, and when you cut them while cycling the handle!!

I'd love to get a proper digital scale, but to satisfy my demands in this regard I'm looking at about $2k - and to me that's another firearm!! The "el-cheapo" scales that I do have are way below the accuracy I want. So for the time being I'll continue using the old time-honoured process.

 

[WAB]

Yep, I know what you mean when!! Those extruded powders are annoying to throw consistently, and when you cut them while cycling the handle!!

I'd love to get a proper digital scale, but to satisfy my demands in this regard I'm looking at about $2k - and to me that's another firearm!! The "el-cheapo" scales that I do have are way below the accuracy I want. So for the time being I'll continue using the old time-honoured process.

Funny, I’ve had nothing but problems trying to throw consistent loads with extruded powders until I tried the lee perfect powder measure. One of the cheapest on the market yet it seems to outperform all the conventional measures with extruded powder. Not worth a crap on fine ball powder though.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Funny, I’ve had nothing but problems trying to throw consistent loads with extruded powders until I tried the lee perfect powder measure. One of the cheapest on the market yet it seems to outperform all the conventional measures with extruded powder. Not worth a crap on fine ball powder though.

I’ve used H4831 in reloading my .270 for years. But, I have to run the powder hopper handle quickly on my ancient RCBS so the powder won’t catch. H4831sc is better, but still not great. I check each charge on the balance scale anyway, and am not in a hurry , but still ?

 

[Timbo]

Funny, I’ve had nothing but problems trying to throw consistent loads with extruded powders until I tried the lee perfect powder measure. One of the cheapest on the market yet it seems to outperform all the conventional measures with extruded powder. Not worth a crap on fine ball powder though.

Thanks for the advice, I'll look out for one!

 

[Forrest Halley]

Funny, I’ve had nothing but problems trying to throw consistent loads with extruded powders until I tried the lee perfect powder measure. One of the cheapest on the market yet it seems to outperform all the conventional measures with extruded powder. Not worth a crap on fine ball powder though.

Accurate #7 or #9 is like sand...I had to completely rebuild my Dillon to load 10mm with an oversized bar. This Lee is something I will try. I am courting a digital dispenser type though...so we shall see.

 

[CoElkHunter]

So against all rational reasoning, I bought a CZ 550 rechambered to .458 Lott from WM with .458 Lott stamped on the barrel above the WM. I already have a CZ WM. This CZ is in great shape, but doesn’t have crossbolts so maybe it’s an earlier model? Anyway, having never shot a Lott before I took it to the range today. Having heard recoil horror stories here on AH about the Lott cartridge I was somewhat apprehensive regarding the recoil. I thought when I pulled the trigger, the sky would darken and surely the stock would split into two pieces! To my surprise and relief, shooting the Lott factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions had no more felt recoil to ME than the factory Barnes 450gr. TSXs out of the WM. I’ve never even shot 500gr. out of the WM. My only complaint is a feeding issue with the Lott cartridges. Seems the Lott rim isn’t sliding into the bolt face completely every time before the cartridge can enter the chamber. The cartridge gets jammed to the side of the chamber? Doesn’t seem to happen with the WM cartridges? Maybe it needs a stiffer magazine follower spring? Don’t know, but it’s fun to shoot!

 

[Forrest Halley]

So against all rational reasoning, I bought a CZ 550 rechambered to .458 Lott from WM with .458 Lott stamped on the barrel above the WM. I already have a CZ WM. This CZ is in great shape, but doesn’t have crossbolts so maybe it’s an earlier model? Anyway, having never shot a Lott before I took it to the range today. Having heard recoil horror stories here on AH about the Lott cartridge I was somewhat apprehensive regarding the recoil. I thought when I pulled the trigger, the sky would darken and surely the stock would split into two pieces! To my surprise and relief, shooting the Lott factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions had no more felt recoil to ME than the factory Barnes 450gr. TSXs out of the WM. I’ve never even shot 500gr. out of the WM. My only complaint is a feeding issue with the Lott cartridges. Seems the Lott rim isn’t sliding into the bolt face completely every time before the cartridge can enter the chamber. The cartridge gets jammed to the side of the chamber? Doesn’t seem to happen with the WM cartridges? Maybe it needs a stiffer magazine follower spring? Don’t know, but it’s fun to shoot!

The Nosler factory stuff is pleasant. You start real-loading and it livens up a bit more. 500 grains of love and affection each time you pull the trigger. It's like a muzzle loader that's faster to reload.

 

[CoElkHunter]

The Nosler factory stuff is pleasant. You start real-loading and it livens up a bit more. 500 grains of love and affection each time you pull the trigger. It's like a muzzle loader that's faster to reload.

Ah Forrest, I’m glad you chimed in! I hope you are well! Yes, I was wondering where the astronomical recoil of the Lott was at! I’ve only shot the factory Nosler Partitions, but have ordered some Hornady cases and have some 450 and 500gr Barnes bullets on hand, so I will experiment with those.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Forrest,
There’s a moot point to all of this. A 450gr Barnes in WM at 2240fps vs. a 500gr Nosler in Lott at 2300fps? So, 50gr more at 760fps more? Of course, factory loads not handloads. Seems insignificant?
CoElkHunter

 

[Daga Boy]

The Nosler factory stuff is pleasant. You start real-loading and it livens up a bit more. 500 grains of love and affection each time you pull the trigger. It's like a muzzle loader that's faster to reload.

It is not uncommon to hear complaints about feeding issues with Lotts, but a good gunsmith should be able to sort your problem out. If not, you have a bit of a problem as a rifle that doesn't feed 100% reliably is not acceptable for DG use. In fact I know of people who sold their Lotts and went back to .458WM for precisely that reason. That said, you should not have that problem with a CZ as the action is long and they easily accommodate the Lott cartridge. Could be that your rails need a bit of work, but I am not a gunsmith. Recoil on the CZ is pretty stiff and the rifle is not pleasant to shoot off a bench. This is due to a combination of weight and stock design. That said, you shouldn't notice the recoil in the field , especially when shooting offhand

 

[Badboymelvin]

Forrest,
There’s a moot point to all of this. A 450gr Barnes in WM at 2240fps vs. a 500gr Nosler in Lott at 2300fps? So, 50gr more at 760fps more? Of course, factory loads not handloads. Seems insignificant?
CoElkHunter

Mate, I reckon you could shoot a thousand head of game and if you didn't know what cartridge was what, you wouldn't ever tell the difference...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[t165]

So against all rational reasoning, I bought a CZ 550 rechambered to .458 Lott from WM with .458 Lott stamped on the barrel above the WM. I already have a CZ WM. This CZ is in great shape, but doesn’t have crossbolts so maybe it’s an earlier model? Anyway, having never shot a Lott before I took it to the range today. Having heard recoil horror stories here on AH about the Lott cartridge I was somewhat apprehensive regarding the recoil. I thought when I pulled the trigger, the sky would darken and surely the stock would split into two pieces! To my surprise and relief, shooting the Lott factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions had no more felt recoil to ME than the factory Barnes 450gr. TSXs out of the WM. I’ve never even shot 500gr. out of the WM. My only complaint is a feeding issue with the Lott cartridges. Seems the Lott rim isn’t sliding into the bolt face completely every time before the cartridge can enter the chamber. The cartridge gets jammed to the side of the chamber? Doesn’t seem to happen with the WM cartridges? Maybe it needs a stiffer magazine follower spring? Don’t know, but it’s fun to shoot!

 

[t165]

I ordered a NIB CZ American 458 Lott over a decade ago. When it arrived the 458 win was crossed out and lott was added above the win. I guess the factory reamed them out. Unfortunately, my stock did split. The split was on the bottom running from the recoil lug through the magazine well. I purchased a Bell & Carlson with aluminum bedding and haven't had any problems.