.500 vs .577 vs .600 NE

[Tanks]

All that said, the recoil is really not an issue. Using a formula for felt recoil a 10.5 pound .450 will fell like a 12 pound .500, will feel like a 14 pound .577 will feel like a 16 pound .600.

If this is your first double I would advise you to start with 375 H&H, like everyone else you’re going to shoot your rifle at the range 99% of the time so it’s very important that you get used to handling the recoil without developing a flinch.

See above comment by @cal pappas in regards to feet recoil. Unless he is going to shoot a 12 pound .375 flanged, a lighter gun in a lighter caliber is not going to be a starter gun in regards to recoil.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Yes , you are 100 % correct in your assessment that the .500 Nitro Express is the calibre for which sourcing factory loaded ammunition ( as manufactured by Norma , Federal , Kynoch and Hornady ) and reloading components are the most convenient .

That said , I would personally opt for a .577 Nitro Express . When propelling it’s 750 grain round nosed steel jacketed solid at a velocity of 2050 feet per second , it is a true stopper in every definition of the word . The Maulvi Bazaar Forest Guards have one in their armory ( a Westley Richards Droplock Ejector double rifle employing a single selective trigger , which was brought into the country during the British colonial era ) . In 1987 , it was used to shoot a 1360 kilogram Gaur bull which had ventured into the country from the hills of India ( and was attacking the employees of a tea estate ) . The ammunition used , was a box of old ICI Kynoch factory ( cordite loaded ) 750 grain round nosed steel jacketed solids . At the first shot ( a frontal heart shot ) , the animal simply gave up . On the spot . The 750 grain steel jacketed solid completely raked him from stem to stern . To this date since the last 33 years , I have never seen a single calibre ( including my beloved .458 Winchester Magnum ) being capable of accomplishing that effect on a Gaur .

 

[Bonefish2150]

Most anything you hunt with one of these doubles will require a lot more walking than shooting - lots more. Unless your new thumper comes equipped with a gun-bearer, why drag all that weight along when a .470 or 500-416 will cleanly kill anything in Africa? Of the three you listed, I would opt for the .500. If picking my own double, it would be a .470 or 500-416. In almost any circumstances in modern Africa, it would be a .375.

Like many who have been over there a few times, I could care less what Mark Sullivan opines.

Sullivan is an egomaniac, arrogant man. I heard he got a client killed. They took away his PH license. Two rifles 404 Nitro and 500/416 are my choice.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Does anyone know if that is true that Sullivan in fact did get a client killed. Any details?

 

[cal pappas]

For twenty plus years the negative comments about Mark always, and I mean ALWAYS, begin with "I heard..." Mark is a showman who found something that worked in the hunting industry and it worked well. Kind of like the personalities in professional wrestling--the behavior in the ring is nothing like the real man. Since threads like the above are where rumors and lies begin allow me make a correction Bonefish: Mark has never lost his license. He is using that license this year and every year since the early 1990s to legally hunt and guide as a PH. Your statement "he got a client killed" is interesting. Can I ask for documentation and proof, please. Also, who are the "they" who took away his license? Or is it just repeating something you heard? I have recorded many of the "I heard" comments that are written and spoken of as fact for decades. Some are:
Mark shoots his buffalo in the nuts to provoke a charge
Mark drugs his buffalo and hippo so he can get very close for the kill
Clients have to sign a contract not to kill the buffalo or hippo
Clients have to sign a contract they will not speak of the nut shooting
Mark illegally guides in African countires
Mark was fined for over shooting quota
Mark has had hundreds of buffalo and hippo charges
Mark has several PHs behind the camera to cover him as he is afraid of the charges
Mark was beat up badly by a group fo PHs in a bar
Mark has lost his licenses in several Africa countries.
I will now add that Mark got a client killed to the list.

If, Bonefish, you would like to know the real Mark, I can send you a copy of the article I wrote about him a few years ago. I can also send you a tabulation of his hunts, shots, and charges in his videos. He is a gentleman, an actor for the camera, a true conservative American patriot, very knowledgeable about history and the Constitution and Bill of Rights, knows Africa better than the Africans, and can handle a double rifle better than anyone I know. His on camera persona may offend some (as it has you) but in a business where most PHs beg for a few clientsa season, Mark is booked 100% years ahead, made a fine living, and sold more videos than all other PHs combined (my guess). I'm proud to call him a friend and to come to his defense when unfounded lies are written.

 

[Bullhunter]

"Cal is correct".

I meet Mark S. on several places, travel with him, hunted with him ("guided him as his PH!" ), shoot with him "in competition" (he has great skills), pp.
He is an real gentleman and had an great knowledge of african wildfile, hunting, pp.
He is an true american, an great sports-man.

I think that the most of that storys:
- He had an navy seal as bodyguard
- He had an sniper from the delta force to back up him
- He played in gay porn films
- pp.
are "trash".

Yes, he mad some "big statements" in his films...
Yes, some people didnt understand this...
I think you must see this "like an show wrestler" (even Muhamad Ali/Clay learnd from them) and then he did this "for the american entertainment circus" (it is not easy for people from other countrys, but that is their way of live, see "the statements" from former US Präsident Trump).

 

[Tanks]

I have found people that criticize Mark have never met him, never talked to him and the gossip they have "heard" is third hand.

 

[cal pappas]

100% Tanks. In my 20+ years of knowing Mark what you said is true. Every negative comment, such as posted by Bonefish, are from those that never talked to or hunted with Mark. It is all "I heard..." And, every positive comment comes from those that know, or have hunted with, Mark. The herd mentality of repeating as fact made up stories to be part of the in-crowd is really sad. But, to Mark's benefit, the rumors and slander have kept Mark's name in the front of the hunting world and his name is the best known in the industry.

I'm still waiting for Bonefish to answer about Mark getting a hunter killed and who are the "they" that took away his hunting license.

 

[Foxi]

Sullivan is an egomaniac,

yes

arrogant man.

no Sir

I heard he got a client killed.

terrible,tell us more

They took away his PH license.

I ve heard it also,but always from the other PH s outside of Tanzania. !!
Maybe an Tanzanian PH knows more

 

[cal pappas]

Mark losing his license has been bantered about for 20 years. Nothing new here.
This thread is a perfect example of Mark's name still out there even though it has nothing to do with the original post.

 

[mfieldvi]

I have hunted extensively with the .500 and .577, both by Westley Richards. The .500 is hands down the best way to go. The .577 is too heavy to lug around all day. The .500 kills as well or maybe even better in some circumstances.

 

[ARod]

Hi all,

I know this is gonna sound kinda touché, but I have a problem deciding on which double rifle caliber to go with.

When looking at ammo availability and affordability, the .500 NE is clearly the best option. HOWEVER, which one do you who use and have used these bigger double calibers recommend when it comes to stopping power, accuracy, and penetration?

Real excited to see what you all of you say.

, Rootball

I have a 500 NE and the recoil is at the top of what I can handle. I can’t imagine making sense of anything larger.

For practice, I load 10% below minimum charge for the caliber. My low power practice lead cast rounds allow me to shoot 20-30 rounds during a practice session. It’s actually a lot of fun to bring out the big bores and blast away! Brass and bullets are easier to source for the 500 NE.

 

[ET1775]

As mentioned ,you'll carry the rifle far more than you will shoot it at game. In that direction of thought the .500 is the choice with a .450 even better. But sometimes we do illogical things in the world of guns and hunting. I've carried my .600 Wilkes to Australia twice, a moose hunt in Alaska and 7-8 times in Africa. I will take it again this year and suffer the carry as it is just so cool to shoot game with a vintage .600. All that said, the recoil is really not an issue. Using a formula for felt recoil a 10.5 pound .450 will fell like a 12 pound .500, will feel like a 14 pound .577 will feel like a 16 pound .600. The stories of horrible recoil are fabricated by wrriters for a hype factor. Bottom line, use what you like best. If it was what is needed then we all would shoot .30-06 and a .375.

Hello Cal, If you don't mind I am curious what the felt recoil formula would compare my current rifle to. My .375 H&H with full house, 300gr factory loads weighs a whopping 8.2 lbs all up. I shoot it well and can easily shoot it 20 or more times in a session without much discomfort, decent form and no flinch, though it will occasionally bruise my shoulder when I am shooting in a t-shirt.

I plan to step up to .450 NE ideally, though a choice between 450/400, .450, .470 will be most likely. I am curious to know how my rifle's recoil would compare to a typical appropriate weight double in those calibers.

Thank you.

 

[IvW]

Cal has passed on to the better hunting grounds.

MS is an ass.

500 NE is the best of the 3.

 

[colorado]

Last time I looked 500 Jeffery ammo was $20 /cartridge. I've never fired one. I've only shot handloads. With Jamison brass (can use 10 times), 570g TSX powder and primer comes to about $2 per round and I can tailor them to my liking. I'm not a double person (though I think they're amazingly useful and beautiful), but it's my understanding that if you go above 500 NE they get incredibly heavy.

 

[ET1775]

Cal has passed on to the better hunting grounds.

MS is an ass.

500 NE is the best of the 3.

A legend has passed from what I can tell. Sorry to learn of his illness and death, I hope he is enjoying peace well-earned.

Any idea what recoil calculator he was referring to? I suspect Elephant will be the least frequent of all the big game I hunt. I really like the .450 for the history, performance, rifle weight, available bullet choices for reloading. I understand the .470 and .500 are far more available in factory ammunition though.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.500 NE is the most practical, due to the wide variety of factory loaded ammo and bullets (for hand loading) which you can source for it.

Now, I'll add a note about the .600 NE. If you can handle the recoil and the weight of the rifle (and stomach the cost per round), then I'm not very opposed to owning one. I used to think of the .600 NE as something that was more of a novelty. But I've recently seen what a properly loaded .600 NE can do to a charging Cape buffalo. The rounds used were Labor Fur Ballistik 900Gr copper jacketed soft points at 1985 fps. The rifle was a Heym Jumbo.

When I last spoke to Mark Sullivan, he related to me an incident in Tanzania in 2020. He was on a buffalo hunt with his client (Mark Egger). Sullivan was armed with his Heym Jumbo in .577 NE. In one barrel, he had a hand loaded Barnes TSX 750Gr. In the other barrel, he had a hand loaded CEB solid 750Gr. He chronographed the ammo as achieving 2050 fps. Egger was armed with a custom made .375 H&H Magnum (built on an early CRF FN Mauser action), loaded with Barnes TSX 300Gr. During the hunt, Sullivan had to shoot the Egger's Cape buffalo. He gave it both barrels (first the TSX and then the CEB) to the frontal chest region and the Cape buffalo went down ... only to get up within seconds. Eventually, Egger downed the animal with 3 more shots from his .375 H&H Magnum. Sullivan noted to me that if he was using his Marcel Thys .600 NE (loaded with a 900Gr Woodleigh soft and FMJ solid at 2000 fps) instead of the .577 NE, then the buffalo wouldn't have managed to get up. Based on what I've recently seen a .600NE do to a Cape buffalo (using LFB ammunition), I'm very much inclined to believe him.

Now, on the subject of Mark Sullivan. No, he hasn't been banned in Tanzania. I also understand that a lot of people in this forum don't like Mark because of the way he talks or his perceived "unethical" hunting videos. I've actually met the man in Spain and I speak/write to him now and then. So I'll share my own views on him.

Before I actually met Mark, I heard all the gossip about him and I was under the impression that I would be seeing a very arrogant pompous man. When I met him and started talking to him, I realized that all is not what it seems. I found him to be quite knowledgeable about double rifles and very approachable and friendly. Yes, he does say things like ".375s are for sissies" and such things. He even said that to me when I told him that I hunt most of my African DG with a .375 H&H Magnum. But I could immediately tell that he was joking. That's Mark for you. He'll joke and kid about how "Real men only use calibers above .500", but he doesn't really mean it. So many of his clients use .375s and .404s. And he gets along with them very well. Even years after their hunt. After he joked about me preferring to use a .375, I called him a barbarian for using .577s and .600s on Cape buffalo (also as a joke). He burst out laughing and took it in stride.

On his videos, he does say boastful things like referring to himself in third person or saying that he teach us to hunt Cape buffalo the "right way". He also does call his hunts "Battles". But when the cameras aren't rolling, I've found the man to be quite down to earth. We spoke over the phone for one hour once, on Mark's Dollar. I've seen him donate money for a white hunter who recently got wounded by a leopard. He's a good man (at least in my eyes). If we hunters get so offended by everything a man says, then we're no different from the political correctness social justice crowd who are so rancid today.

Again, I know (as I write this) that the general opinion on Mark on this forum is negative. But I just gave my opinion on the man, having known him for 10 years now. You have full right to keep disliking a man. Maybe he behaved arrogantly with some of you. I don't know. But don't say things like "He lost his license" or "He got a client killed". That's just tasteless defamation.

 

[Slope77]

Sorry, not to steal the thread. I’ve never shot anything bigger than a 338 and have never touched a double rifle.

Does the fact that the 476 Nitro/Westley Richard’s uses a 520 grain bullet, thus higher sectional density, give it any real advantage over the other 470 +/- or 450 Nitro cartridges?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Sorry, not to steal the thread. I’ve never shot anything bigger than a 338 and have never touched a double rifle.

Does the fact that the 476 Nitro/Westley Richard’s uses a 520 grain bullet, thus higher sectional density, give it any real advantage over the other 470 +/- or 450 Nitro cartridges?

No. And bullets/cases are a devil to source (let's not even talk about factory loads).

 

[Slope77]

Does/did Woodleigh make bullets and loaded ammunition for it?