7mm rifles, whats your thoughts, favourites

[Mr. Zorg]

My .243 Winchester Whitworth (Zastava) rifle is the same, all Zastava M70, Interarms Mark X, and Whitworth rifles are manufactured with the same bolt length.

That"s why postings saying the 7mm-08 is an American neutered version of the 7X57mm cartridge and confined to being loaded with projectiles of 140 grains and less weight that have no factual basis in the real world to "demonstrate" the 7X57mm cartridge is "more versatile" is someone's fairy tale they expect rational observers of the world outside their head to buy into hasn't got a chance, no matter who jumps on the cheerleading circut of doublethink & doublespeak.

Then the whole "short action" spectre is raised ignoring that there are rifle manufacturers who chamber 7mm-08, 7X5mm, 7X64mm all in the same action length and same magazine size for decades, at least since 1975 to present day and into the foreseeable future, allowing 7mm-08 cartridges of those three the greatest versatility with regard to projectile seating depth and thus powder charge volume capacity due to case dimensions.

And I'm certainly not kidding that this is still not a 7mm-08 cartridge to be fired in a rifle barrel twist rate of 1:10 inches. Rational objective mathematical modeling shows that my 7X64mm caliber rifles are the appropriate performance envelope for the current sole 7mm Federal Edge TLR projectile weighing 155 grains with G1 BC 0.61, as I've posted. Projectile weight plays a very minor role in that rationale relative to other projectile charachteristics.

If I was ever actually forced to "hunt the world" I wouldn't use any of my 7mm caliber rifles. I'd take one of my .30-06 rifles for the performance envelope it posesses plus widespread ammunition availability. I wouldn't take any 7mm or .30 caliber rifle to hunt dangerous game no matter what Karamojo Bell did many decades ago when elephants had much less fear from humans as a potential predator vs the circumstances today's elephants experience. Just not in any way a good idea in my personal ethics, but as always, YMMV.

I doubt I would ever be taken alive to any re-education camp if thrust into such circumstances, and I'm absolutely OK with that. Always have been.

 

[fourfive8]

That’s it- such a privilege to have so many choices! ... and come to think of it so much overlap.

I really don’t like anecdotes but beyond a certain number, even anecdotes take on at least some credibility.

My anecdotes involve mostly the real world hunting use of one load in the 7x57. In a portion of my previous life, all the 80s and into the early 90s, my wife killed a veritable train load of deer and elk with her 7x57. I developed a conservative load of 39.5 gr 4064 under the Nosler Partition bullet. Excellent accuracy and fairly mild at about 2540fps. The few bullets recovered were typical NP with some to most of the front ablated off. From what I could reconstruct, the bullet track was straight line in every case, no matter angle or type of bone encountered. Shot distances varied between about 50 and 250 yards. We hunted mostly locally in fairly mountainous terrain (NM and WYO) where if a shot was offered at long range, like across a canyon or whatever, it was not viewed as an opportunity for a “sniper yadayada” shot, but as a simple challenge to get closer. No shots were farther than about 250 yds and no animals were lost to poor hits.

Most of My experience with other 7mms is limited to watching other reloaders/shooters/hunters mess around with all manner of 7s- from Rem Mags, STWs, RUMs, 7-08s, 280s, 284s, Short Mags and a 7x61 SH. While many can push certain bullets much faster than the 7x57, I will never be convinced they are a superior hunting tool. A couple of years ago I used a Rem Mag to kill quite a number of cull PG like impala. Truthfully, I would rather have been shooting a 7x57 with good bullets than the much faster Mag even though it too had good ammo with good bullets. For cull zebra and wildebeest I used a 375HH with good ammo, instead of the 7 Mag, and didn’t feel over-gunned. Efficiency and surety of result were more important. Didn’t lose any animals or have to do any tracking after the shot.

Did shoot a friend’s 7 Rem Mag a few times years ago. It was ported and what a miserable experience. Doubled up on hearing protection but the blast to my face was more than annoying. Too much of that could easily induce flinching. No thanks— I’ll never have any recoil compensator or ports on any of my rifles and refuse to shoot near others who have them.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Hear hear for freedom of choice!

Now that I've gone to electronic hearing protection, I don't mind folks shooting rifles with muzzle brakes, porting, etc. but I'm not partial to Magnum calibers in general though. I have a 26" barrel .264 Win Mag I've only shot at the range, and I loaned to a hunting companion on a feral hog hunt back in April. I'll likely sell that .264 Win Mag now that I have some 7X64mm long arms.

 

[sambarhunter]

You can also add nitrous, a new chip set, bore out the engine and add a spoiler to a Honda to get similar performance to an Audi. This does not an Audi make though.

Yep! That`s it in a nutshell.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

My favorite 7 mm cartridge is the 7 mm Mauser-7x57. In a Mauser 98 (1935) with a new S.I.G. barrel 60 cm lenght.
I had a 7x64 for 5 years, some 15 years ago, a beautiful Mannlicher-Schoenauer GK, 60 cm barrel lenght.
With factory ammo, no doubt, the 7x64 would be my favorite 7 mm. Period. But reloading both, in standard .30-06 lenght 98 Mauser actions with original CIP standard chamber barrels, to me the winner is the 7x57!
In that configuration, the 7x57 can be loaded at 3.3 or 3.4" OAL with heavy bullets. Doing this, the difference in case capacities between both, using all the lenght of that standard .30-06 magazine, is no more than 5 grs with any powder. The difference in velocity in my rifles was never more than around 50 f/s with 175 grs bullets and a little more with 160 grs bullets. Nothing to worry about. And the 7x57 cases are, in my opinion, a better design than the 7x64.
A "long" 7x57 cartridge as that is the same concept as the 6,5 CM!

Best and Merry Christmas to all!

CF

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

By the way, the powders I use for my loads in my 7x57 are:
- 140 to 154 grs bullets any of the 4350 for 2900 to 2800 f/s respectively.
- 160 to 175 grs bullets R19 and or R22, preferably R22. For 2800 to 2670 f/s respectively.

CF

 

[CBH Australia]

So I don’t have a chronograph or ballistics s software. I ask questions here out of interest and there are people here with far more technical knowledge of ballistics.
I formed an opinion years ago the 7mm-08 “May” be a great all rounder for Australia. Based on some people want a short action for hunting and some species of deer need a minimum calibre of .270, this covers both. There was nothing scientific about my theory but I liked the idea. 3 years ago I got an opprtunity to buy a Tikka CTR in 7mm-08 on clearance at about 1/3 off. I’m pretty happy with it.
@Mr Zorg you seem to be a bit of a ballistics Buff, what do you think of the CTR with a 1 in 9.5 inch barrel . They have a longer magazine too that allows longer case OAL. That may help unleash the potential.
FYI, in Australia .223 and .308 would outsell 7mm-08 by some multiples of tens maybe even 100:1.
7mmRM while widely available is still a jump into that Magnum class and not for everyone.
7mm’s of sorts and projectiles can be easily found but not in the variety of .308 offerings.
All that said it’s interesting to see the .280, 7x64 come close to the 7mmRem although not so common in Australia from what I can tell.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I honestly can't provide any comments on Tikka rifles as I've concentrated on CRF design bolt rifles. A Steyr Mannlicher Pro Hunter in .30-06 with detachable magazine has given me plus another individual fits. So I've stuck with commercial Mauser heritage CRF designs.

I'm just a strongly numbers & facts oriented individual, a Chemical Engineer by degree.

 

[bruce moulds]

c b h,
you can use ballistics software free on j b m calculations website.
their software is the latest, and as good as or better than any you will pay big money for.
do not avoid the 7mm rem mag just because of its "magnum" status.
it is not a fire breathing dragon, shoots flat, and has recoil about like a 30/06, but kills more emphatically.
it also has surprisingly good barrel life.
if I could not have a 280 and a 7mm stw, I would be forced to go back to the 7 mag.
bruce.

 

[MISportsman]

I have a savage 110 storm lightweight 7mm-08 as a mountain rifle. It's a accurate and can carry it all day and barely know its there. 7mm is plenty to put down most big game animals too. I also have an old Spanish 1916 mauser in 7x57. This has to be one of my favorite rifles of all time. I learned how to hunt with it as a kid and still use it today.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I found these two 7mm-08 American factory loads for rookhawk to see.

Federal Power Shock (blue box) 150 grain

https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/power-shok/power-shok-rifle/11-708CS.html

Hornady ELD-X 150 grain

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018231253?pid=853027

So, the honest truth is, there is both American and European 7mm-08 factory ammunition for the 7mm-08. Such loads range from 120 grains to 165 grains weight. And when factory published muzzle velocities are compared for same weight projectiles, and even for the exact same projectile with respect to Norma Oryx 150 grain, the 7mm-08 velocities exceed the 7X57mm velocities.

As Sgt. Friday was known to say:

"Just the facts".

 

[rookhawk]

I found these two 7mm-08 American factory loads for rookhawk to see.

Federal Power Shock (blue box) 150 grain

https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/power-shok/power-shok-rifle/11-708CS.html

Hornady ELD-X 150 grain

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018231253?pid=853027

So, the honest truth is, there is both American and European 7mm-08 factory ammunition for the 7mm-08. Such loads range from 120 grains to 165 grains weight. And when factory published muzzle velocities are compared for same weight projectiles, and even for the exact same projectile with respect to Norma Oryx 150 grain, the 7mm-08 velocities exceed the 7X57mm velocities.

As Sgt. Friday was known to say:

"Just the facts".

Just the facts. I've been shooting Nosler Partition 175gr 7x57mm factory loads for more than a decade. They stabilize with the factory twist rate, the case length and throat permit up to the 180gr FMJ should you wish to brain a croc as well. 2450fps observed velocity out of a 23" barrel in my Dakota 10.

So far its worked out well with the longest shots around 250 yards. It has harvested:

-Whitetail deer
-Black Bear
-Cow Elk
-Red Deer
-Impala...about 15 of them including 4 SCI records
-Bushbuck
-Waterbuck
-Duiker
-Hyena...twice
-Kudu...twice
-Vervet Monkeys...many
-Baboons...many
-Steinbok
-The stuff I forgot

Would I have trusted a factory 7mm-08 loaded to SAAMI specifications under similar conditions, likely with a smaller bullet? No. No chance. Would I trust a 7mm-08 CIP loading if there is such a thing? Maybe. Would I be miles ahead with the choices of 7x57 mauser bullets and CIP loadings in Europe or Africa way beyond that of the 7-08. Yes, Unequivocally.

Do I value heavy for caliber loadings with long bullets of 175gr and above, preferably A-Frames, Partitions, Woodleighs, over other choices in both of these "weak" 7mm calibers? Yes.

Do I appreciate the quality and beauty of the average 7x57 versus a 7-08, on the average? Absolutely. The availability of fine guns in 7x57 is 1000:1 over the 7-08.

Is the approximate loadings available through most ammo companies loaded to SAAMI specs lower grain weight for 7-08 versus 7x57? A cursory look at say grafs.com suggests, yes.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi rookhawk,

Agree! I use my 7x57 the same way: 160 and 175 grs bullets (mostly 173 grs H-Mantel, 160 and 175 grs Nosler P and 160 and 175 grs Speer Mag Tip, now discontinued AFAIK, but I still have 5 boxes of both.
With no more "stress" than the factory 7-08 cartridges I load, as I said before, my 60 cm barrel M98 Mauser at near 2800 f/s with 160 grs bullets (plus 154 Hornady Spire Point), and close to 2700 f/s the 175 grs bullets.
With these loads I got:
Brocket deer
Fallow deer
Axis deer
Guanaco
Wild boar
Red deer.

Merry Christmas

CF

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Just the facts. I've been shooting Nosler Partition 175gr 7x57mm factory loads for more than a decade. They stabilize with the factory twist rate, the case length and throat permit up to the 180gr FMJ should you wish to brain a croc as well. 2450fps observed velocity out of a 23" barrel in my Dakota 10.

So far its worked out well with the longest shots around 250 yards. It has harvested:

-Whitetail deer
-Black Bear
-Cow Elk
-Red Deer
-Impala...about 15 of them including 4 SCI records
-Bushbuck
-Waterbuck
-Duiker
-Hyena...twice
-Kudu...twice
-Vervet Monkeys...many
-Baboons...many
-Steinbok
-The stuff I forgot

Would I have trusted a factory 7mm-08 loaded to SAAMI specifications under similar conditions, likely with a smaller bullet? No. No chance. Would I trust a 7mm-08 CIP loading if there is such a thing? Maybe. Would I be miles ahead with the choices of 7x57 mauser bullets and CIP loadings in Europe or Africa way beyond that of the 7-08. Yes, Unequivocally.

Do I value heavy for caliber loadings with long bullets of 175gr and above, preferably A-Frames, Partitions, Woodleighs, over other choices in both of these "weak" 7mm calibers? Yes.

Do I appreciate the quality and beauty of the average 7x57 versus a 7-08, on the average? Absolutely. The availability of fine guns in 7x57 is 1000:1 over the 7-08.

Is the approximate loadings available through most ammo companies loaded to SAAMI specs lower grain weight for 7-08 versus 7x57? A cursory look at say grafs.com suggests, yes.

Yet there remains zero truthful, factual basis for stating American 7mm-08 was "neutered" and only able to be loaded with projectiles 140 grains and lighter. And in this entire post quoted here, that still continues to be true, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, no matter if factory ammo is loaded by American companies, or a respected (by me anyway) manufacturer called Norma.

So what exactly spurred you to go on and on and on in multiple posts to provide misinformation to the OP wih his desire to learn more of various 7mm calibers? Especially since anyone with enough savvy to become a member and post on this site has the tech savvy to see exactly every one of the links I posted? Simple question.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I think he meant a 140 grain load was nurtured, not the 7-08, and that the 7x57 was throated to make the best use of 175 and the 7-08 was more intended for 140.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Forgive me for saying this, because I'm no Jack O'Connor fanboy, but... once you've neutered a 7mm Mauser or 7x64 by making a 7-08 and throttling down to 140gr bullets or less, might as well just go get a .270 winchester, shoot a .277" bullet, and call it a day.

Americanization of metric calibers has always trended towards the lackluster. A beautiful 6.5x55 becomes a lame .260. A great 7x57 becomes a lethargic 7-08. A 9.3x62 becomes a 358 winchester.

EVEN if the metric-euro calibers were worse (they're not) than the American knock-offs, one problem still remains. 99.99% of American caliber 7mm guns are ugly as sin, whereas many of the european metric guns are exhibition quality. Ironically, sometimes for the same exact price as the american model too!

Here's the reminder @rookhawk. So, what reloading tables were you consulting when you came to this position? Can you post a link to such?

For Europe & Africa, I posted my choice in 7mm would be 7X64mm but not for elephants or any other dangerous game, not for me.

 

[bruce moulds]

at the risk of making 2 enemies, I would like to enter this debate.
firstly cip and saami specs are easy to look up.
the problem in comparing pressures is that they can be measured in different ways, and both organizations have their own methods.in my opinion the 7/08 and the 7x57 are both fine rounds, with different attributes to some degree.
7/08 first, its strength and weakness is that it is meant for 308 length actions.
this means that lighter rifles with shorter bolt strokes and shorter barrels might suit the round.
like the 284 win, as you go to heavier bullets, the shortness of the round to fit the mag starts to decrease powder capacity.
this means that to get max potential from the round, bullets from 120 to 150 gns offer best value.
this is not actually the problem it might seem, as there are many choices of bullets in this range.
if that handles your game, at the ranges you shoot, what more do you need?
7x57 next.
it comes in longer actions, allowing bullets to be seated out further, thus allowing longer, heavier bullets to not encroach on powder space.
having a longer neck is a point in its favour here.
throating is relevant to this consideration.
a disadvantage of the 7x57 is its body taper, presenting more thrust on the bolt under pressure.
this is also an advantage in that it can aid feeding from the mag.
looking at clod's and rookhawk's game list, a good 140 gn bullet would handle most targets very well.
handloading takes the argument to a different level, in that you can load them to equal pressres, and select any bullet you want.
a handloaded 140 gn bullet in the 7x57 will go faster than the 7/08, and slower than a 280.
all 3 will however shoot pretty flat.
if you then want to go to a heavier bullet, the bigger case always has the advantage, and to me 175 gn bullets out of small cases are approaching the trajectory of a 30/30. there has to be more to 7mm life than that!
if you don't want to go to a magnum, in order to shoot heavier bullets, the 284 in a 30/06 length action or a 280 rem are good choices.
I rate them as generally suited to 120 to 160 gn bullets for hunting.
the 280 will give 2800 to a 160 at sane pressures in most 24" barrels.
to get that from a 7x57 will require more pressure.
175 gn bullets are associated with the 7x57 from history.
this is in part due to soft point bullets with no controlled expansion other than jacket thickness, core hardness, and length.
with their length for calibre (fineness ratio) they could keep expanding and still have enough left to do a job.
now we have swift aframes and bonded cores to do the same or better with lighter bullets.
the moral of the story, if you are happy with what you've got, just keep using it.
if you want more, but not a magnum, get a 280.
if you really want more, get a 7mmstw.
why the 280 and not the 7x64?
no reason, they are ballistic twins in the field.
as a handloader I believe the 280 to have a little more case capapcity.
incidentally the shaa of iran hunted world wide mostly with the 7x57.
he used a 140 gn load.
bruce.

 

[Standard Velocity]

Zorg,

Might it be enough to just say the 7mm-08 is “my favorite” and move on? A hair can only be split so many times.

$0.02

 

[rnovi]

SV, this is the internet. I find your logic and desire to simply “agree to disagree” unacceptable.

 

[Standard Velocity]