Accidental Discharge

[VertigoBE]

Friend, we have no idea that this rifle would "need to have the trigger worked over once the rifle has left the factory"

The only thing that we have to go by is that assumedly the owner wanted a lighter trigger. Considering that the owner did not bother to try the new trigger pull on snap caps or even to function-check the rifle prior to loading it, it does not inspire me a great deal of confidence in his judgment as what that rifle needed or did not need...............................

Double rifles - especially! due to the regulation process - are shot at the factory. We have zero reason to believe that this rifle had inappropriate trigger pull. This would have been detected during regulation. A bolt rifle may (?) conceivably miss the firing test for proofing, but a double simply cannot get out of the factory without being fired repeatedly, and I will trust the judgement of any regulator from any double rifle maker over that of this owner, as to whether these triggers were properly adjusted or not...

I also absolutely disagree that "it still remains a bit the responsibility of VC for evoking a need to ‘better’ it’s operation". Countless rifles, engines, whatever, you name it, are destroyed daily by John-Doe-Public-who-knows-better... In this case, my money is on the owner wrongly wanting a match grade bolt action trigger pull on a double, which a good double should not have. Its triggers should have pulls similar to a shotgun triggers, not a tuned-up bolt action rifle, due to the dynamics of instinctive shooting.



100%.

This is not so much about Jewell, or Timney, or Geissele, etc. triggers., they are all great FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.

The error here is to want a benchrest or match rifle trigger on a hunting rifle, which is already questionable for a bolt action that may see excited use or snap shooting, and which is especially wrong for a double rifle which is mostly designed for defensive instinctive shooting.

thank you Pascal for clarifying

 

[Hogpatrol]

Have been using Jewell's hunting triggers on dozens of rifles the last sixteen years, never had an AD/ND or problem. Seven trips to RSA and thousands of rounds at the range and varmint hunting in windy, dusty Texas, local farm fields off a bipod and the Great Karoo, flawless performance. The rub is people clean their bores and actions but either neglect the trigger or watch too much youtube and think they're expert trigger tuners. I flush mine out as recommended with lighter fluid on a regular basis. From this chair, it's not the arrow, it's the Indian. Having said that, on my last five rifles have been installing Bix 'n Andy Tac Sport Pros but still have the Jewell's in my other rifles.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Friend, we have no idea that this rifle would "need to have the trigger worked over once the rifle has left the factory"

The only thing that we have to go by is that assumedly the owner wanted a lighter trigger. Considering that the owner did not bother to try the new trigger pull on snap caps or even to function-check the rifle prior to loading it, it does not inspire me a great deal of confidence in his judgment as what that rifle needed or did not need...............................

Double rifles - especially! due to the regulation process - are shot at the factory. We have zero reason to believe that this rifle had inappropriate trigger pull. This would have been detected during regulation. A bolt rifle may (?) conceivably miss the firing test for proofing, but a double simply cannot get out of the factory without being fired repeatedly, and I will trust the judgement of any regulator from any double rifle maker over that of this owner, as to whether these triggers were properly adjusted or not...

I also absolutely disagree that "it still remains a bit the responsibility of VC for evoking a need to ‘better’ it’s operation". Countless rifles, engines, whatever, you name it, are destroyed daily by John-Doe-Public-who-knows-better... In this case, my money is on the owner wrongly wanting a match grade bolt action trigger pull on a double, which a good double should not have. Its triggers should have pulls similar to a shotgun triggers, not a tuned-up bolt action rifle, due to the dynamics of instinctive shooting.



100%.

This is not so much about Jewell, or Timney, or Geissele, etc. triggers., they are all great FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE.

The error here is to want a benchrest or match rifle trigger on a hunting rifle, which is already questionable for a bolt action that may see excited use or snap shooting, and which is especially wrong for a double rifle which is mostly designed for defensive instinctive shooting.

Jewell and Timney triggers are excellent especially on varmint and long range hunting rifles. Never had an issue. Factory bolt triggers are generally the worst for accurate shooting. Semi custom factory triggers such as weatherby are just fine. Compare those custom triggers to the factory Remington model that was the final straw for them. Also never violated the ten commandments of firearms handling.

 

[One Day...]

OK, you guys are right, I should have been more specific...

Well, a lot of custom rifle manufacturers do use Jewell, Timney or TriggerTech (sp) for their bolt action hunting rifles. I have either Jewell or TriggerTech on my custom bolt action rifles and never had an issue with them at the range or hunting

...and you likely do not have the Jewell, Timney or TriggerTech triggers on your hunting rifles adjusted with a sear engagement so short and a pull weight so light that just closing the action fires the rifles

...and not using a good trigger (e.g. Jewell, Timney or TriggerTech, etc.) on hunting rifles is not what I was trying to say Sorry if I was confusing

That is the thing, good triggers (e.g. Jewell, Timney or TriggerTech, etc.) provide a number of features very desirable on any rifle, including certainly hunting rifles: no gritty creep, consistent pull, crisp release, etc. and great hunting rifles from great smiths or even great factories have great triggers (the R8 trigger comes to mind), but as many of us know, a great trigger is not defined by a "1 thousandth sear engagement and a 1 ounce pull" as wrongly perceived by some...

Have been using Jewell's hunting triggers on dozens of rifles the last sixteen years, never had an AD/ND or problem.

Agreed

Jewell and Timney triggers are excellent especially on varmint and long range hunting rifles. Never had an issue.

Agreed

I too have them - I am partial to Timney - on all rifles who needed them (CZ 550 come to mind), but adjusted appropriately with enough sear engagement that no mechanical handling, including rifle fall, can ever let it slip; and enough weight that even a cold numbed finger, or an instinctive snap shot, will not fire accidentally.

I think we all favor the "glass rod break" effect a lot more than we worry about minimal pull weight and minimal sear engagement...

 

[Hogpatrol]

The best triggers I've had on factory rifles, albeit rimfires, are the Anschutz. I've always been curious as to why their centerfire versions aren't mentioned much on this and other hunting forums.

 

[C.W. Richter]

The best triggers I've had on factory rifles, albeit rimfires, are the Anschutz. I've always been curious as to why their centerfire versions aren't mentioned much on this and other hunting forums.

i used to shoot Anschutz .22LR in competition as an 18-21 y/o (fantastic!) I was just about to say that the best factory trigger ever owned is a .22 WMR that has a bit of creep, which is an indicator (when the creep ends and the trigger stiffens up, it's ready to fire-SUPER accurate!) Factory Ruger 77s w/ the 7.5 lb pull (after past lawsuits) are rediculous and need a lighter trigger spring kit at a minimum. 'Spring kit in a Rem 740/760/7400/7600/870 tightens typ factory groups up from 2" to <1" (all shots, not 3, 5 or 10!)

 

[Sabattiboy]

1980's I bought a used Remington 788 in 243 Win for the wife. I typically minimally size the cases with a full length sizer die so is lightly firm in bolt closing. Well that firm was too much for my wife as we were hunting Antelope in Wyoming when she twice had the rifle fire when loading. After the second time I watched how she did it and found she grabbed the action in a way to use her palm to push the bolt closed but her fingers were wrapped around the bottom including one in the trigger guard that mashed the upper curve of the trigger enough to trip the sear. I took the reloads away and gave her some factory ammo solving the problem.
I later discovered the safety locked the bolt shut so removed that tab that locked the bolt. I couldn't understand why they would disallow the rifle to be unloaded with the safety engaged.

 

[sureshot375]

Messing with the triggers in a double rifle is a remarkably bad idea.

 

[Frederik]

After glassing through the posts not reading every bit here is more infor on the owner of the rifle and the double.

Yes it's a VC 500 NE with our licensing system it is still not licensed but booked in as stock at the supplying gun shop. I am not going to name names of anyone involved.
So when we have a big bore shoot and this was not a Big Bore shoot that BASA held the owner always asks if someone from the gunshop is willing to bring the rifle over to the shoot so he can shoot with it. (Licensed person that can move rifle and guns around legally if not the owner)
The owner is a short man as can be seen from the video.

He bought the rifle 2 years ago without getting the stock made to his size and struggled to shoot with it properly with only his fingertips over the front trigger which then caused the finger to slip after the first shot and then fire off the second trigger. Having a good old fashioned double discharge. There was not much of an issue when time was not involved to shoot fast.

So after several shoots 2 or 3 if I remember correctly he had a local gunsmith work on the trigger to bent it to be a beter fit for his hands instead of shortening the stock. (Don't ask me why he went that route) I will have to ask him why he decided to go that route.

So without testing the rifle on a hard close the rifle was at the shoot and I presumme the gunsmith did not properly test the rifle beforehand. Then on the first range of the day he was shooting the incident happened and as being posted by others it was tested with snapcaps after and same happened the gun went off on closing and ejected the snap caps.

I am not a gunsmisth double expert or trigger expert either I just know that the rifle went boom with both barrels when closing it with some force/speed.

So, I would blame the gunsmith first or who ever gave him the idea to bent the triggers and the gunsmith for not properly testing the rifle before sending the rifle for the shoot. The rifle doesnt fit him the stock is too long for him. He did very well to keep the rifle safe and not falling after it went off.

Aparently the same gunsmith resolved the issue with the help of an ex VC employee who was in the country recently. But honestly I think he should get the gun fit him first and he is still waiting for his licensing to possess the gun to come through.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Frederik, Thank you, I will keep a eye out for a short man with a .500 VC speaking Afrikaans!

All I can think of "what if he was hunting elephant with us standing behind me or a tracker when he loaded and closed that double".

 

[VertigoBE]

After glassing through the posts not reading every bit here is more infor on the owner of the rifle and the double.

Yes it's a VC 500 NE with our licensing system it is still not licensed but booked in as stock at the supplying gun shop. I am not going to name names of anyone involved.
So when we have a big bore shoot and this was not a Big Bore shoot that BASA held the owner always asks if someone from the gunshop is willing to bring the rifle over to the shoot so he can shoot with it. (Licensed person that can move rifle and guns around legally if not the owner)
The owner is a short man as can be seen from the video.

He bought the rifle 2 years ago without getting the stock made to his size and struggled to shoot with it properly with only his fingertips over the front trigger which then caused the finger to slip after the first shot and then fire off the second trigger. Having a good old fashioned double discharge. There was not much of an issue when time was not involved to shoot fast.

So after several shoots 2 or 3 if I remember correctly he had a local gunsmith work on the trigger to bent it to be a beter fit for his hands instead of shortening the stock. (Don't ask me why he went that route) I will have to ask him why he decided to go that route.

So without testing the rifle on a hard close the rifle was at the shoot and I presumme the gunsmith did not properly test the rifle beforehand. Then on the first range of the day he was shooting the incident happened and as being posted by others it was tested with snapcaps after and same happened the gun went off on closing and ejected the snap caps.

I am not a gunsmisth double expert or trigger expert either I just know that the rifle went boom with both barrels when closing it with some force/speed.

So, I would blame the gunsmith first or who ever gave him the idea to bent the triggers and the gunsmith for not properly testing the rifle before sending the rifle for the shoot. The rifle doesnt fit him the stock is too long for him. He did very well to keep the rifle safe and not falling after it went off.

Aparently the same gunsmith resolved the issue with the help of an ex VC employee who was in the country recently. But honestly I think he should get the gun fit him first and he is still waiting for his licensing to possess the gun to come through.

Thank you Frederik for bringing light to this situation!

I suppose the members of BASA will be thinking twice now before asking for the services of that particular gunsmith...

 

[DWB]

I also shoot BASA, and we tend to push our guns as hard and fast as possible (when it comes to loading/cycling and shooting fast).

I firmly believe that most gunsmiths are not able to replicate those kind of handling and shooting exercises at their workshops. For example, their idea of fast action cycling and fast feeding pretty much falls out of the bus in comparison with what we do on the range sometimes.

Pretty sure this one was also a case of closing it nicely and all is well, but when slammed closed with speed then sh#t happened.

 

[Frederik]

DWD, Deon, you bring up a very important point we have discussed before a rifle that shoots BASA is a rifle that works we do push the limits with cycling and shooting as fast as possible on multiple targets. (Not shooting beyond published loads but not fooling around either)

 

[VertigoBE]

DWD, Deon, you bring up a very important point we have discussed before a rifle that shoots BASA is a rifle that works we do push the limits with cycling and shooting as fast as possible on multiple targets. (Not shooting beyond published loads but not fooling around either)

Perhaps it would be good to once post about all the findings on good makes, brands, models, cartridges, etc. that you and BASA have discovered over the years?

 

[uplander01]

Lesson,...if you're going to buy a double buy a good one. If you can't afford it invest in a really good bolt rifle, less money and a lot of good qualities.

 

[Frederik]

Uplander01, you have a point but it was not the rifles fault if he had the stock shortened to make him fit nothing would have happened. It was trying to take a short cut bending the triggers that caused this heap of crap.

 

[uplander01]

Definitely understand that, but my experience has been,...as a sales rep for a couple different companies over the years that make double rifles, the quality on the lower end stuff is just not there. I've seen behind the curtain so to speak, problems first hand with demo guns that are actually shot a lot and tested. I'm not going to name any names but that 10-12ish even up to 15ish price point is not where a person needs to be for a reliable double, with maybe a few exceptions. Speaking from experience.... cracked action bodies, weights coming through recoil pads, both barrels going off at once...the list goes on.

I'm not into new manufacture DR's, but if I were the only one I would buy currently to tackle true dangerous stuff would be a Heym. For me I feel Much better off buying a vintage double and sending back to england and having it gone through buy the right people. I'd trust a tool that has been used for 100 years with no expense spared from the moment of its inception vs a "modern tool" where profit for the manufacturer is paramount, i.e. (cut corners)

 

[WAB]

Definitely understand that, but my experience has been,...as a sales rep for a couple different companies over the years that make double rifles, the quality on the lower end stuff is just not there. I've seen behind the curtain so to speak, problems first hand with demo guns that are actually shot a lot and tested. I'm not going to name any names but that 10-12ish even up to 15ish price point is not where a person needs to be for a reliable double, with maybe a few exceptions. Speaking from experience.... cracked action bodies, weights coming through recoil pads, both barrels going off at once...the list goes on.

I'm not into new manufacture DR's, but if I were the only one I would buy currently to tackle true dangerous stuff would be a Heym. For me I feel Much better off buying a vintage double and sending back to england and having it gone through buy the right people. I'd trust a tool that has been used for 100 years with no expense spared from the moment of its inception vs a "modern tool" where profit for the manufacturer is paramount, i.e. (cut corners)

You make a very good point. Vintage doubles were made to perform under the worst conditions, and properly maintained, can be counted on to do so. However, you also mentioned sending them back to England for a proper repair and tune up. This can’t be stressed enough. Far too many vintage guns have been ‘worked’ on by ham handed wanna be smiths. There are a couple of guys in the US, and likely a dozen shops in the UK, that could be trusted to bring one of these guns back to life.

Be prepared, this is not a cheap adventure. The restoration of a butchered London gun could easily exceed the cost of a new Heym.

 

[Safari Dave]

I've had a Remington Model 788 do it, as well as a Marlin bolt action.

I've also had a Heym do it!


If you NEVER point the muzzle of your firearm at something you do not intend to destroy, then everyone walks away just fine with nothing but ringing ears and maybe soiled undies.