best bolt action for dangerous games

[Mark A Ouellette]

And I personally know PH's whos guns have jammed wih reloads in dangerous situations. Ive been doing this a while.
To each his own.

Phil,

Internet forums bring together people with common interests from vastly different walks of life, and from all over the world. I am a fan of your videos. They are very informative on a subject that you have expertise. Please do not discount the expertise of many of us AH members when it comes to handloading, firearms, and shooting. We should all learn from each other.

Concerning handloaded ammunition, I trust my handloads over factory ammunition. I have factory ammo that does not meet the claimed velocity. I measure all my practice with a pair of Lab Radars. I also have factory ammo which do not fit into one of the chambers of my Heym 88B. Admittedly that chamber must be a little too tight. But my full-length sized brass always chambers! Is the factory ammo loaded with temperature-stable powder? How about bullet performance? It would be hard to match that of the latest generation projections such as the Cutting Edge Bullet’s Safari Raptors and Solids. There are of course factory loads that use Swift A-Frames and Barnes TSX bullets. Those are what I recommend to Africa bound hunters who do not handload.

There are many AH members that have loaded ammunition for decades. I started 50 years old without any adult supervision, long before I was old enough to legally drive! Along with loading, many of us are competitive marksmen firing thousands of rounds per year. I have loaded over 5,000 rounds per year without any failures, stoppages, of other boo-boos. How many rounds could an African PH fire in a year? As for practicing with big guns, I sent over 500 projectiles down the tubes for each of the last two years in preparation for African hunts. I think that many of my AH peers are similar to me.

I do not know where the PH’s that have experienced ammunition problems got their ammo. Were those rounds left over Lord knows which hunter? Certainly, those rounds did not come from me or my AH peers. Chances are that if sourced from a local handloader, the loader unfortunately would not have access to the nearly unrestricted supply of components available in the USA. I wish they did. Oh, and why would any professional not run all their ammo through the magazine and chamber prior to a hunt? Perhaps because as great of a PH as many are, they are not all gun aficionados!

Thank you and please continue what you do so well, as we will in our chosen professions and pastimes which we are passionate about!

 

[IvW]

I handload all my own ammo and especially for DG.
I also ritualistically cycle all my ammo I take with me for the day through the rifle before I go for coffee....each morning

 

[Nevada Mike]

...Your opinion is naive and arrogant. Go get some real shooting experience and come back.

Doug, I think you are right about reloads for DG hunting. I think you are wrong to call out and insult Philip, who is, in fact, and experienced African hunter. Better to agree to disagree than to pick a fight.

 

[BeeMaa]

Your opinion is naive and arrogant. Go get some real shooting experience and come back.

Great post until I read the last line. No need for that.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I would just like to state. Failures take place in factory & hand loads. That is why my rifles of preference are #1 a double #2 controlled round feed. Sxxt happens.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Doug, I think you are right about reloads for DG hunting. I think you are wrong to call out and insult Philip, who is, in fact, and experienced African hunter. Better to agree to disagree than to pick a fight.

If you had read the whole

Doug, I think you are right about reloads for DG hunting. I think you are wrong to call out and insult Philip, who is, in fact, and experienced African hunter. Better to agree to disagree than to pick a fight.

If you read his response to me from yesterday, you'll see that he said to me, "you need to get out more" clearly implying that I was inexperienced. He went on to say that PH's were opposed to people bringing hand loads. He basically said I didn't know what I was talking about. He picked the fight.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Doug, I think you are right about reloads for DG hunting. I think you are wrong to call out and insult Philip, who is, in fact, and experienced African hunter. Better to agree to disagree t

Doug, I think you are right about reloads for DG hunting. I think you are wrong to call out and insult Philip, who is, in fact, and experienced African hunter. Better to agree to disagree than to pick a fight.

Phillip told me, "you need to get out more" so I could see that real hunters don't reload for DG. He shouldn't have picked a fight with me if he didn't want a harsh response.

 

[Philip Glass]

Phil,

Internet forums bring together people with common interests from vastly different walks of life, and from all over the world. I am a fan of your videos. They are very informative on a subject that you have expertise. Please do not discount the expertise of many of us AH members when it comes to handloading, firearms, and shooting. We should all learn from each other.

Concerning handloaded ammunition, I trust my handloads over factory ammunition. I have factory ammo that does not meet the claimed velocity. I measure all my practice with a pair of Lab Radars. I also have factory ammo which do not fit into one of the chambers of my Heym 88B. Admittedly that chamber must be a little too tight. But my full-length sized brass always chambers! Is the factory ammo loaded with temperature-stable powder? How about bullet performance? It would be hard to match that of the latest generation projections such as the Cutting Edge Bullet’s Safari Raptors and Solids. There are of course factory loads that use Swift A-Frames and Barnes TSX bullets. Those are what I recommend to Africa bound hunters who do not handload.

There are many AH members that have loaded ammunition for decades. I started 50 years old without any adult supervision, long before I was old enough to legally drive! Along with loading, many of us are competitive marksmen firing thousands of rounds per year. I have loaded over 5,000 rounds per year without any failures, stoppages, of other boo-boos. How many rounds could an African PH fire in a year? As for practicing with big guns, I sent over 500 projectiles down the tubes for each of the last two years in preparation for African hunts. I think that many of my AH peers are similar to me.

I do not know where the PH’s that have experienced ammunition problems got their ammo. Were those rounds left over Lord knows which hunter? Certainly, those rounds did not come from me or my AH peers. Chances are that if sourced from a local handloader, the loader unfortunately would not have access to the nearly unrestricted supply of components available in the USA. I wish they did. Oh, and why would any professional not run all their ammo through the magazine and chamber prior to a hunt? Perhaps because as great of a PH as many are, they are not all gun aficionados!

Thank you and please continue what you do so well, as we will in our chosen professions and pastimes which we are passionate about!

Thanks so much for your encouragement. Happy hunting!

 

[BeeMaa]

Might be time for everyone to back away from their keyboards for little bit until things cool down.

 

[Money d Luffy]

The .375 H&H or .375 Ruger are excellent, versatile cartridges, but I would also recommend you look at the .416 Rigby and .458 Lott chamberings as well. Several African nations specify a minimum bore of .40 for hunting Africa's Big 5.

 

[Dukeisok]

While I have minimal dangerous game experience (and none in Africa) , I have experienced enough failures of factory loaded ammo to convince me that commercial loadings are not always the answer. I've had an entire box of 5 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot that would not chamber in a mossberg 500, I've had two squib loads in centerfire pistol ammo, and I've had a box of 6.5 creedmoor ammo that smoked like a muzzleloader and barely made 1800fps on the chronograph (I gave up trying after 3 rounds). Nothing man made is perfect. Especially if made by Remington (all three of the above happened to be Remington from the bad days just before bankruptcy and the creedmoor debacle was a Barnes/Remington lrx "premium" factory load). Control what you can, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

While I have minimal dangerous game experience (and none in Africa) , I have experienced enough failures of factory loaded ammo to convince me that commercial loadings are not always the answer. I've had an entire box of 5 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot that would not chamber in a mossberg 500, I've had two squib loads in centerfire pistol ammo, and I've had a box of 6.5 creedmoor ammo that smoked like a muzzleloader and barely made 1800fps on the chronograph (I gave up trying after 3 rounds). Nothing man made is perfect. Especially if made by Remington (all three of the above happened to be Remington from the bad days just before bankruptcy and the creedmoor debacle was a Barnes/Remington lrx "premium" factory load). Control what you can, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Exactly right. In my case the bad shotgun shell was Winchester, one rifle cartridge that failed to discharge was Norma, and I can't remember what the other rifle cartridge was that hang fired was many years ago, but it would most likely have been either Winchester or Remington. These incidents convinced me that I could do better building my own. I suppose that I could get a bad primer or something someday, but as you said, "Control what you can."

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Mike,
no one will actually develop a single load and shoot it hundreds of times in hunting scenarios with their big bore. They also rarely go hunt with it before the safari. Obviously if this was true, common practice yall would have no argument from me.
They tinker and tinker until the time of the DG hunt and then disaster! The gun jams with a new load they "worked up".
Dont get me wrong handloading has its place. Mountain hunting for instance where shots are long and conditions difficult. Having the right load for your rifle whether custom or factory makes a difference.
Regards,
Philip

And how does that make factory loads designed for any given rifle that much more dependable?

I personally have typically hundreds of rounds fired thru my DG rifles. The only exception would be my 470 double. In that particular case the dimensions are nowhere close to maximum, but the load is optimized for accuracy in my rifle. Something any of the factories likely don’t copy.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

The best bolt gun for dangerous game is a Rigby in 416 Rigby, of course!

At the end of the day, it only takes 5 minutes to dress like a pro. I came from a career where training, maintenance of equipment and PCI's (pre combat inspections) were a way of life. When I see hunters not taking care of their kit, sloppy/unsafe weapons handling, I assume that is their process and it probably applies to most everything they do to include handloading (if they handload).

I have been at our range a lot these past few weeks and I am appalled at how most people handle their firearms and prepare for hunting season. If any of these hunters go to Africa, these habits go with them.

I reload and also use factory ammo. I have confidence in my reloads and the factory loads I use because I not only fire a lot of them, but I also test them for correct chambering and feeding during my range work and "PCI's", and I have practiced applying immediate action for misfires just in case mierda happens. I know a lot of hunters that do the same.

We owe it to the game we hunt and the people we hunt with to be prepared.

Safe hunting

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The best bolt gun for dangerous game is a Rigby in 416 Rigby, of course!

At the end of the day, it only takes 5 minutes to dress like a pro. I came from a career where training, maintenance of equipment and PCI's (pre combat inspections) were a way of life. When I see hunters not taking care of their kit, sloppy/unsafe weapons handling, I assume that is their process and it probably applies to most everything they do to include handloading (if they handload).

I have been at our range a lot these past few weeks and I am appalled at how most people handle their firearms and prepare for hunting season. If any of these hunters go to Africa, these habits go with them.

I reload and also use factory ammo. I have confidence in my reloads and the factory loads I use because I not only fire a lot of them, but I also test them for correct chambering and feeding during my range work and "PCI's", and I have practiced applying immediate action for misfires just in case mierda happens. I know a lot of hunters that do the same.

We owe it to the game we hunt and the people we hunt with to be prepared.

Safe hunting

This is only an impression, but it seems me to.me that those shooters that don't take care of their gear mostly don't care enough to be good shooters and don't reload. They think of their rifle about the same as a golf club. They buy a box of whatever kind of ammunition is on sale and go hunting (drinking?) with the guys. Fortunately, they don't kill much. Guys like that scare me.

 

[michael458]

no handloads for DG!)

Take my word for it your life depends on it.

I have really done my best to not say anything on this. I told myself it is just not worth the effort. I know from decades of experience dealing with Ignorant, yet consider themselves experts in all areas, that it is a waste of energy and my time. Now, first, let me define ignorant before one gets on the high horse of ethics. We are ALL ignorant about different things. I promise I am an ignorant ass if I had to mechanic on any motorized vehicle of any sort, I just don't have the skills, and the only thing that exceeds my ignorance of such matters, is my lack of interest in such. I am ignorant about many things, as are most of us. We of course cannot be leading experts in all areas of knowledge, therefore being ignorant some things is not a crime, nor a disadvantage. I however do not claim to be an expert mechanic, nor do I claim to be an Expert on things I am obviously ignorant about.

In this particular case, Philip Glass, you are ignorant when it comes to the statement "No Handloads For Dangerous Game".......... and I am very sorry to tell you, you are no expert in this area, and no, I will not take your word for it. And, My Life Has Indeed Depended on it Several times in the field, and because of My Handloaded Ammo, I am here today. Like I stated Philip, its not a crime or disadvantage to be Ignorant. But it is rather stupid to claim to be an expert on the matter.

I do however have a clue as to where you are coming from and how you might have come to your conclusions. It would seem you have little experience with true Hand Loaders. You see, there is a vast difference between "Hand Loaders" and "Reloaders"................. I am not going into the lengthy discussion, or lengthy session that it would take to explain this to you, it would take a book to do so, and while I type very well, it just takes more time than I have available, but suffice it to say, there is a vast difference in the two. See if you can figure it out. Its rather easy, there are several Hand Loaders on this very thread.

Hand Loaders are Shooters. We take intense pride in our ability to manufacture our own ammo, loaded with the very best of Bullet Tech, the best powders, the best accuracy, and at proper velocity to accomplish the mission in which we set forth on. You cannot get this in "Factory Ammo", Period, end of discussion. As Shooters and Hand Loaders, it is of upmost importance for us to be successful in our endeavors, we take the time to make sure of it with carefully tailored ammo, specific in many cases to our firearm we are taking to the field. It is not uncommon to fire hundreds of rounds through our rifles/handguns to make sure everything is 100%. This entails feed/function sessions, accuracy, velocity, and even pressure testing. To say "No Handloads for DG" in fact is insulting to many of us, me included. It is an asinine statement at best. I promise you, a Hand Loader will shoot hundreds of rounds more than any Factory Ammo Hunter will before going to the field, and will be far more prepared for whatever might come up, than any Factory Ammo Common hunter. Hand Loaders are Shooters! Least you do not forget this fact.

At the height of my own experiences I would be shooting 10'000 rounds of BIG BORE, 416 caliber + and the vast majority of that .458--.500 caliber rounds every single year. On average around 200 rounds a week. Granted, not every round of that was 3 down and work the bolt, much was doing data and research, but there was still plenty of 3 down and work the bolt before major hunts. The research was just to get to that point. Because of this, and it is a passion of mine, I was able to guarantee my success in the field, as long as I did my part and put the bullet where it was supposed to go. And, because of this Hand Loading, even when I did not do my part as well as I should have, the Bullet Tech employed in my Hand Loaded Ammo, saved the day a few times. Bullet Tech that is not found in Factory loaded ammo.

As I recall you are also the chap that some time ago made mention that Solids were of no real use in the field? Hmmmmm? I could be wrong about that, not about the Solids, but it being You that said as much. But that is another matter altogether.

Well, seems we have side tracked off topic.......... I think the original topic had something to do with what Bolt Action was best for whatever? Really, they make something other than a Control Feed Winchester M70????

Yes, I realize I should have just kept my mouth shut and gone on about my business, but honest to god, sometimes.................

 

[geoff rath]

Definitely NO expert on D/G rifles, except what I've learned from others.
Hundreds of handloads for various c/f rifles, and thousands for handguns, and yes, I've had stuff-ups, which have taught me a big bunch. (A custom Ruger No1 that's sub-MOA capable @ 1,000 yards?)
The O P's original question related to taking a bolt actioned rifle, presumably to Afrika, for hunting D/G.
extensive discussions with PHs, gunsmiths of extensive knowledge, and research lead me to the following:
CRF action, built to fit me, in an established, recognised workable caliber, mebbe one of the40s, and step up. Set it up load for accuracy and reliability, then thoroughly familiarise yourself with it. As a by-the-by, an "old mate" is having a 500 Jeffery built on a Champlin action; Gunsmiths I know use Mauser 98s, or GMAs. Sure, expensive, and time-consuming, but we'll get the ideal tool for the job.
Custom builds from H&H, Mauser, Rigby et al follow the same path.
'Nuf from me, let the discussion flow ...

 

[mdwest]

I'll go with the vanilla "any CRF that has been proven reliable and accurate in an appropriate DG caliber" answer..

RE: hand loads.. I'll beat what appears to be an already dead horse.. The hand load is as good as its maker.. if the maker puts the time and effort into it.. makes the round with precise process, tests the load in the rifle it is intended for, etc.. far more often than not the result will be ammunition that is superior to factory ammunition in the rifle it was built for.. a 8lb jug of powder sold to a reloader is no more or less reliable than the barrel of powder sold to a factory.. the federal primers sold to a reloader are no more or less reliable than the federal primers that federal uses at its factory, the swift A-frame or Barnes TSX sold to the reloader is no different than the A-Frame or TSX that factories place on top of their cartridges... etc..etc..)...

My experience is that MOST hand loaders that are also serious hunters or serious competitive shooters take their reloading craft very seriously.. There are certainly guys out there that just slap together cartridges while drinking beer and watching porn on their iPhone.. but my guess is very few of those clowns have got 15K invested in a pending buffalo hunt and are out in the reloading room having a party 2 weeks before they fly, cranking out some ammo..

With the exception of countries where reloading isn't allowed (Ireland for example), every PH or guide I have ever talked to about hand loading, reloads to some degree or another... Many reload for their DG rifles exclusively and do not purchase factory ammo (too expensive, too hard to come by, etc)..

I will occasionally buy DG factory ammo for either my 375 or my 416... but never with the intent of hunting with it.. I will pick it up when I find something on a great sale (grabbed a bunch of 416 Taylor Norma custom solids about a year ago when they had 10 count boxes for about $40 for example)... and then use it for range fodder, keep the once fired brass, and add it to my hand loading supplies.. The only 375 or 416 ammo I take to Africa (PG or DG) are rounds that I have hand loaded.. I know exactly how they perform in my rifles and am very comfortable with them..

 

[shootist~]

On The subject of reloads, there is a huge difference between shooting your own reloads and someone else's reloads. I also trust my loads over factory because I know my quality control steps are based on decades of experience.

I simply won't shoot other individual's reloads. Period. For those that don't load their own (or have limited experience), using factory ammo for DG makes the most sense.

 

[steve white]

OP, Anything that doesn't have a 15 second lock time and there are more than a few out there.

I guess Mannlichers have a slow lock time, but you can bet your life that firing pin will fall, even when others are frozen in place (that would be referring to bear hunting up north, tho)