Blood Lions: Blowing The Lid Off The Canned Hunting Industry

[bushpig]

1. Your drinking analogy misses the point. Drinking responsibly implies taking responsibility for your actions. As does hunting responsibly.

2. 'I personally shot 2 captive bred lions. I CHOSE to do so because of personal reasons and some are about wild lion numbers. I will not get into that.' And that my friend, is the problem. If you cannot or chose not to explain why you did on a hunting forum then you are really going to have a problem convincing Joe public. You care about Lion conservation? Lion's are losing their habitat every year - hunting free range lions in a hunting concession is the best way to put a stop to that.

If its all about the kill I suggest working in a slaughterhouse. But hunting is not all about the kill.

I don't agree with factory farming either. Doesn't make canned lion hunting any more acceptable. In fact canned lion hunting is worse as it's effectively factory hunting.

At the end of the day, its irrelevant whether it's legal or not. Because guess what, if enough people get wind of it, it will become illegal. Conservation is one of the biggest sticks hunting has. At the risk of repeating mysef, pen raising top predators has nothing to do with conservation and the light touch management of a fully functional ecosystem. you go on about market forces but to me, that comes second after conservation. There is a market demand for child pornography. Doesn't make it any more acceptable.

At the end of the day, the public, not the antis decide. I am from Southern Africa and I can tell you even there people are starting to turn.

Good luck convincing them.

 

[petrusg]

Lion breeding and hunting is extremely regulated in South Africa. A lot of this is still based on the old canned hunting that is now banned.

Another interesting read: http://www.health24.com/lifestyle/e...s/should-hunting-in-africa-be-banned-20150715

 

[billc]

The truth is must of the public has no idea of raised lion hunting or hunting period. Us hunters make more of a big deal about it then should be. When people see my son has hunted a lioness they ask some question. One is how did you let your son hunt a lion when they are all but gone in the wild. Have had people think we did some illegal hunt or even poached the lion. Then when we tell them the truth of how they are raised to be hunt people change there tone. Must then ask more question and walk away ok with how it happened. Sometimes just telling the truth works.

Does everyone think it is ok well no but I cant worry about everyone. I just know this movie got more press and talked about on two hunting sites then I have seen anywhere else. They did what they wanted by getting hunters fighting with each other again,You think they dont watch what tears us apart you just kidding your self. We give up the fight on this they will take that as a win and just start on the next animal they want saved. For those that dont like it dont do this kind of hunt just stop telling us that are find with it what to do. Saying nothing sometimes is better.

 

[harden]

Bushpig, I wrote a entire hunting report about my experience and I don't have to repeat it here to you.

You just made my point for me on the drinking thing..LOL Thanks. Responsibility ? I guess that drinking thing got to you?.
Why then do 100,000 thousand people die from drinking related deaths around the world? And your against 600 to 800 lions being harvested with a gun on farms in S A ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
You have just raised the level of a lion over the life of a human being even children. Your for drinking and it does KILL children and adults whatever just point you try to convey in it's defense. Just as crazy as any anti hunter I have ever sat across the table from and their has been many over the years.

I have no moral or ethical issues with it. I know the lion was breed for 2 purposes. One for the Organ Grinders in your country that keep lions FOR the Eco Tourism crowd that are against exactly what their money supports that they turn a blind eye to. That is more hypocritical that the hunter paying for the end game.

Your comment about hunting vs slaughterhouse goes array. You don't know me or the places I have hunted and the people and experiences I have had traveling around the world in the pursuit of hunting.

Your one liner posts till now, on this forum. Should make everyone question WHO you are and what your lurking here for. An Anti Hunter? A Sleeper lying in wait for this expressed opportunity? Maybe as I see many posts on many forums by PH's and people in SA against lion hunting is they personally don't have any skin in the game. NOR have the opportunity to do so and enjoy the legal capitalistic system that bring about jobs, income, security, growth for everyone involved? It's real easy to be against something that doesn't provide any income to you or benefit you.

I am not hiding behind a screen name. You are.

You talk about factory hunting. I LIVE next to a factory farm. 8,500 cows held in a building milked for 2 -3 years 3 times a day , never see the sun or leave the building and then drug out by chains and taken to the slaughterhouse and sold to make McDonalds Hamburgers for the public. It's 200 yards from my front door. I'd like to see your posts and work on closing those down. In fact they have the right to exist as much as I hate the fact that they do. I keep him in line with the laws he has to abide by. Like all S A lion operations should. Unlike you I DO NOT want to take any mans Legal Freedom away. I don't even want to take away the anti's freedom to make such one sided garbage films. I don't like it but I support their right to do it !

IT IS TOTALLY RELEVANT about LEGAL. You fail to mention anything about any other farmed and breed for killing animal that was mentioned. Is it that you are jealous of the industry ?

You are against lion hunting. Let's see your posts against all other forms of Breed for Hunting and HIGH Fence hunting.
Yes HIGH FENCE hunting. Please let your true colors out. If you are not against any form other form of breeding for hunting game ranches, ei plains game in africa or any other country as I posted in previous posts then I will call you a hypocrite and would in person to you standing in front of you.

You Sir are what IS WRONG with the hunting community. You want to take my rights away and other hunter's rights JUST AS the Anti's do.

I'll continue to defend any form of hunting that is legal and any hunter not doing so is undermining all hunting for all hunters.

 

[billc]

Well dennis that is well said. Bushpig is no different the the guy who started this thread here. He does not like this type of hunting so brought it up to start all the bs. Hell he even lied when I ask him. Said he only did because he likes to watch what the antis do. If you go to the other site were this started he made his comments there that show the true reason.

Just a shame how some hunters feel the need to tell others how to hunt. Must will change there tone if this battle gets lost and the antis go after the hunting they enjoy. For those that think they will go away if we give in on this you really need to start waking up. Some other animal they want saved will be next.

 

[H50]

Well said Dennis! Your statements pretty much sum up how I feel. Thanks for posting.

 

[Red Leg]

"Just a shame how some hunters feel the need to tell others how to hunt."

Have not wanted to get back into this - I had hoped we had exhausted this topic, but apparently not - and probably won't until the practice is no longer legal.

Do be bluntly direct, I do not believe fenced lion hunting is ethical.

I did not say it was not legal - it is indeed perfectly legal to walk inside a fence and kill a lion. And I do not begrudge an operator or a government who supplies that service to those collectors who wish to say they killed a lion and paid the tariff (or Artistry in Wildlife's right to mount it). But I do not believe that any of that has anything to do with the sport I call hunting. More importantly, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to support someone's perceived right to behave in a legal but unethical manner - particularly when that behavior works to the ultimate erosion of support for this sport. Again, to be direct, I do not accept the notion that supporting the shooting of "penned" animals is necessary to support hunting. Indeed, since I believe that this behavior is ultimately harmful to the sport, I am convinced it would be irresponsible not to share my opinion. And if you wish to disregard it, that is fine. Just know there are many of us, who are very experienced hunters, who view this practice, and any "trophy" so collected, with at best disdain.

I should also note that this has nothing to do with the danger involved. Killing a lion is a dangerous business - whether you walk into a cage with one in Pittsburg or a fenced property outside Johannesburg. But it is killing - not hunting. And I base my opinion not on the potential perceptions of the general populous, but rather, what should constitute fair chase.

I'll also admit that it is a fairly slippery slope. What, for instance, is the difference between shooting a kudu and a lion behind a fence? In most cases (back to that in a moment), at least to my mind, rather a lot. If the kudu is part of a natural breeding population which is managed on a property so large that the animal does not realize it is penned, then I have no issue with that hunt. There are some small properties, primarily in the RSA, which do put and take PG "hunting" - particularly for rarer species such as sable. That, again, is nothing but an exercise in killing. In that regard, I am aware of one instance where an eland was released onto a small property with a .22 short in its hoof so finding it wouldn't be too difficult. With regard to the great cats, no limited property can economically sustain a natural breeding and feeding population of lions. The vast majority of these animals were raised by humans, released to a limited period of "freedom", in a very confined environment until someone paid to kill it - and all too often, too recently since it had a .22 short equivalent of a hypodermic needle in its hip or its food.

And with regard to the argument that shooting the lion is no different than fenced farming of cattle or sheep - well I could not agree more. And so I don't believe shooting a cow would be an ethical form of fair chase either.

I also do not accept the notion that speaking out against this unethical practice is somehow allying oneself with the anti-hunting community. Indeed, I believe those who support this practice do far, far more to arm our adversaries than any dissension perceived caused by me and like minded hunters who oppose the practice.

 

[bushpig]

Wow. First time I've ever been called an anti. I'm here because these debates around wildlife management interest me.

Do I have an issue with it morally ie. the actual killing? As you say, worse happens on your neighbouring farm, so not really, my objection to it is that

a) is does nothing to contribute to real conservation (which I see you haven't refuted) and

b) it's not hunting. In fact you have already alluded to that by referring to it as 'harvesting'.

Put and take practices, whether in fisheries or hunting is, I admit a sad reality when the modern need for instant gratification has spilled over into hunting and fishing. Does it equate to real conservation? Not a chance. Its a sticking plaster over the real issue; habitat.

I'll pose an example. I lived in the UK for much of my life. Many commercial pheasant shoots raise 1000s of pheasants for shooting every year. If these shoots put just 1% f the effort they invest in raising pen reared pheasants into improving habitat for grey partridge, would the grey be endangered as it currently is? That and catering to indivuduals who are not happy unless they are knee deep in cartridges at the end of the day is the problem with some (but certainly not all) aspects of the hunting community. Globally.

As the above poster has stated, singing to the same hymn sheet is unhealthy. Debate and self criticism should be encouraged. Insularity and insecurity less so.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

"Just a shame how some hunters feel the need to tell others how to hunt."

Have not wanted to get back into this - I had hoped we had exhausted this topic, but apparently not - and probably won't until the practice is no longer legal.

Do be bluntly direct, I do not believe fenced lion hunting is ethical.

I did not say it was not legal - it is indeed perfectly legal to walk inside a fence and kill a lion. And I do not begrudge an operator or a government who supplies that service to those collectors who wish to say they killed a lion and paid the tariff (or Artistry in Wildlife's right to mount it). But I do not believe that any of that has anything to do with the sport I call hunting. More importantly, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to support someone's perceived right to behave in a legal but unethical manner - particularly when that behavior works to the ultimate erosion of support for this sport. Again, to be direct, I do not accept the notion that supporting the shooting of "penned" animals is necessary to support hunting. Indeed, since I believe that this behavior is ultimately harmful to the sport, I am convinced it would be irresponsible not to share my opinion. And if you wish to disregard it, that is fine. Just know there are many of us, who are very experienced hunters, who view this practice, and any "trophy" so collected, with at best disdain.

I should also note that this has nothing to do with the danger involved. Killing a lion is a dangerous business - whether you walk into a cage with one in Pittsburg or a fenced property outside Johannesburg. But it is killing - not hunting. And I base my opinion not on the potential perceptions of the general populous, but rather, what should constitute fair chase.

I'll also admit that it is a fairly slippery slope. What, for instance, is the difference between shooting a kudu and a lion behind a fence? In most cases (back to that in a moment), at least to my mind, rather a lot. If the kudu is part of a natural breeding population which is managed on a property so large that the animal does not realize it is penned, then I have no issue with that hunt. There are some small properties, primarily in the RSA, which do put and take PG "hunting" - particularly for rarer species such as sable. That, again, is nothing but an exercise in killing. In that regard, I am aware of one instance where an eland was released onto a small property with a .22 short in its hoof so finding it wouldn't be too difficult. With regard to the great cats, no limited property can sustain a natural breeding and feeding population of lions. The vast majority of these animals were raised by humans, released to a limited period of "freedom", in a very confined environment until someone paid to kill it - and all too often, too recently since it had a .22 short equivalent of a hypodermic needle in its hip or its food.

I also do not accept the notion that speaking out against this unethical practice is somehow allying oneself with the anti-hunting community. Indeed, I believe those who support this practice do far, far more to arm our adversaries than any dissension perceived caused by me and like minded hunters who oppose the practice.

A very reasonable and well worded opposing view Red Leg. The only thing I would ask is that you be cautious about is not painting all RSA lion operations the same. None of the RSA lion operations that I'm aware of, unless a hunt is conducted in the Kruger area are wild lion hunts. No doubt there have been and likely remain those who conduct these hunts in such a way that they can only be put under the term "canned" no differently than hunting that one particular animal with a .22 short stuck in its hoof on a 100 acre property. However not all operations are the same. There are raised lion hunts that take place on large pieces of ground with lots of other lions about as well as PG. The lions are out there long enough to not only become hungry but hungry enough and physically ready to hunt PG for its own meal.

Will that ever be considered a wild lion hunt like you would find in Zim or Tanz? No of course not. But it's also not the shooting of a drugged up lion that was deposited just a few hours before the client shows up.

 

[Hank2211]

I like to think I'm an "ethical" hunter. I know, though, that we, as hunters, have different views of what constitutes " ethical".

I have hunted captive raised lion in South Africa. The property was 10,000 ( ten thousand) hectares, and the lion had made a kill. How long it had been ther, I don't know. But I do know that tracking it was not a materially different than, and required the same tracking skill as, tracking a Cape buffalo. And I've hunted Buffalo inn both South Africa and Zim, and I know that the Buffalo in South Africa were captive raised.

Both hunts were exciting, a

 

[Hank2211]

Sorry. iPad. Both hunts were exciting and got the adrenaline flowing.

Which hunt was ethical

 

[harden]

Bushpig, Respectfully you do your thing and lobby against it with your ideals and partner with the anti's.
I support your right to so that.

I'll do my thing and defend every persons right to their freedom and legal pursuits unencumbered by others that would push their ideals, views and morals on them. The way I was raised. I answer to the law of man and answer to my god upon my death.

You are trying to say your morals and ethics are better than mine or anyone else that has different views than you.
That's pretty arrogant to be honest with you.

And yes, you HAVE figured it out. I call it harvesting, never have I called it free range hunting or anything else but it was a harvest.
The lion was a crop , a renewable resource.
If some want to call it hunting that is their right.
I defend their words as free speech.

I don't agree with hunting over bait piles for ruminants, or cats with dogs, or birds with dogs or decoys.
But UNLIKE you I DEFEND the rights of others to do so. I just don't do it but would go to the mat for them.
Who am I, or you, to tell anyone else the value and level of their morals and ethics?
I guess you are the standard bearer that others should be held to?

It's your country and your laws that I simply abide by and enjoy.
I will do it again in the near future.
If you want your countries laws changed then you have the right to pursue that matter.
And as long as your country does have this opportunity I will pursue my personal interests.

 

[billc]

Maybe some view this type of hunts with disdain but I can still sleep well at night knowing I fight for all hunters. I dont pick what just suits me. If some want to believe there a better hunter because they following a ph in what they call wild africa and do as the ph tells them just like I did in SA god bless you. I dont need to make my self feel good by looking down at the way others hunt. I guess hunting 10,000 acres fenced is not fair. But putting some bait out or hunting a man made water hole that narrows down some big 100,000 acre down to a small area as it is the only water for miles is way more sporting. After all the wild animal will run to the other side and use all the 100,00o acres just because it is there. Some of you who just think your better because you have hunted areas we all want makes me sick to my stomach. Your not a better hunter because of were you hunt but what you learn and do with any chance you get to hunt.

Do some guys cheat the system and do hunts the wrong way sure they do. But lets not make it like this did not happen mostly years ago. Lets also realize these hunts have been improved since they started many years ago.Then also lets try to stop acting like we know this all happen for sure and like we were all there to see it happen. So many rumors get started and become half truths or worse. Yes mistakes have been made but when some of the antis come after all you big time hunters way of hunting dont look at me to help you then. I will just do as some of you do now and say I dont believe baiting some leopard or hunting man made water is proper and turn away and blame your way of hunting.

 

[bushpig]

My last 2c. Not going to bang on about this.

Its not a standard. Its a belief that hunting should be driven and motivated by conservation. Money is a driver, yes, but not the whole picture. Why else could Botswana do away with hunting in it's State lands (when faced with increasing revenue and pressure from the photographic safaris (I think a mistake in the long run I might add but that's another thread).

The potential for conservation provided by these canned operations is limited. And lets not kid ourselves, its money.

Anyway, best of luck. Like I've said you will need it. Just hope the rest of us aren't dragged down with you.

Cheerio X

 

[harden]

Good read billc
Thanks, Every hunter should support any legal means of hunting.
Just wait till something happens and these against what is legal and we have been involved in need our support.
Should we just say, it's your issue I don't hunt those species so I don't care.
NO. We should all stand together and be one voice Even if it's not your cup of tea

Lets just wait and see what Botswana will do in the next few years.

 

[billc]

It funny how some act like there was no anti hunters around till raised lion hunting came around. I guess if you live life with blinders on they just popped up in your radar then.

 

[tarbe]

I find it difficult to believe that only 9,000 people per year come to South Africa to hunt, as stated in the article.

I would think 9,000 per year come to the Eastern Cape alone! Heck, there were at least 30 or 40 people going to hunt on my one flight from Atlanta to Jo'burg.

 

[harden]

Tarbe, Typical Anti Hunting BS.
and so will there $$$$ numbers they will present more BS
From the horses mouth...
South African Environmental Affairs Minister Edna Molewa has said that the hunting industry shows the value of SA's biodiversity and would be supported. The hunting industry chain in it's entirety brings in 8.3 Billion Rand per year. Close to $600 million US.
I guess those 9,000 are all spending 65K a safari....

 

[Hank2211]

Tarbe, Typical Anti Hunting BS.
and so will there $$$$ numbers they will present more BS
From the horses mouth...
South African Environmental Affairs Minister Edna Molewa has said that the hunting industry shows the value of SA's biodiversity and would be supported. The hunting industry chain in it's entirety brings in 8.3 Billion Rand per year. Close to $600 million US.
I guess those 9,000 are all spending 65K a safari....

I'm trying to do my bit!

 

[Philip Glass]

Hunters attack each other by using incorrect terms from the antis. "Canned hunt" means shooting an animal in a small pen. There is no such thing happening. You are a complete idiot if you think that we should support ANYTHING the antis are promoting! They will just then go after the next thing. They want to abolish all hunting. We have he same BS here in the U.S. As it relates to high fenced hunting. I would say 90% of the hunters who bash a RSA fenced lion hunt as well as a 200 class whitetail hunt in Texas are just sour grapes morons who could not afford either.
It's not my saying but again we can either hang together or hang separately.
Regards,
Philip