Blood Lions: Blowing The Lid Off The Canned Hunting Industry

[BRICKBURN]

Wonder if this is a raise and release program Zimbabwe style.

Investigation into a Lion being shot outside Hwange.

A hunters' association in Zimbabwe says it is investigating the circumstances surrounding the unexpected killing of one of the country's best-known lions on a hunt last week.

There has been outrage following the news that black-maned Cecil, a much-photographed lion from the Hwange area in western Zimbabwe, was killed on a hunting safari.

Wildlife fans say Cecil was extremely relaxed around visitors and apparently a favourite with those on photographic safaris, who sometimes travelled long distances to watch him. He had been seen in the area for the last 13 years and was often in the company of another male lion known locally as Jericho.

Circumstances surrounding Cecil's death are not yet entirely clear. There are claims he was wounded with a bow and arrow and then shot. He was reportedly wearing a collar when he was killed.

Zimbabwean hunters posting in online forums have insisted the hunt was legal.

The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (ZPHGA) said in its statement late Monday that the lion was killed "outside [Hwange National] park on private land on a safari".
"An investigation is ongoing at this time. We are awaiting all relevant documentation for verification," the association said, confirming that the professional hunter involved was one of its members.

A lion hunt in Zimbabwe can cost a foreign client up to $45 000, insiders say. Unconfirmed reports say that the client on this hunt was from Spain.

News of Cecil's death has reignited the testy war of words between trophy hunters and those who are strongly opposed to hunting.

One reader posted to Safari Guide Africa's Facebook page: "Heartbroken. Cecil was beautiful and majestic a true King. He will be sorely missed."

The ZPHGA said: "We do not know all the facts yet."

Source: News24

 

[IdaRam]

My feelings on this topic are very similar to Dennis and Bill's. Even so, I understand where Red Leg, bushpig and others are coming from. My feelings and opinion have not been formed over night. I've struggled with how to feel about hunting South African lion and through much analysis, education and discussion I have formed the opinion and feelings I have today. They are mine and I understand that others may not feel the same way. So be it.
Having said that, it is also my opinion that anyone who points a finger and condemns a fellow hunter for the way they choose to legally hunt is not helping our cause. In fact quite the opposite.
Look no further than some of the close and contentious battles we fight here in the U.S. for perspective on this. Mountain lion hunting by any means in California. Spring bear hunting in numerous states and several Canadian provinces. Bear baiting. Hound hunting. Trapping. The list goes on. The anti's spend alot of money on these fights and in many cases they are close battles because there are very few houndsmen, trappers, etc. The embattled few end up going it alone because too many of their fellow hunters aren't willing to engage or they have a negative opinion of pursuing lion or bear with hounds, trapping, bear baiting, etc. We see it all the time.
So to anyone who thinks it will be the fault of those who hunt South African lions if all lion hunting comes to an end I sincerely hope you will check yourselves and re-think this position. The anti's always have and always will target what they perceive as the weakest points and easiest victories. The more divided we are the weaker we are. The anti's have chosen this battle (lion) specifically because they perceive weakness and division. When and if they win this battle they will simply move on to the next battle they think they can win. The next weakest point. They aren't focusing on ANY animal or method of hunting for moral and ethical reasons. They are engaging in an "island hopping campaign" with the ultimate goal of putting a stop to all hunting of any sort. They will most certainly try to divide us further by convincing more and more hunters that "THAT GROUP" over there, with their dogs, their baits, their hunting of South African female lions, they are the ones that are ruining it for all the rest of you who just want to go to deer camp with your buddies once a year.
In closing, if you think I'm the problem because I WILL go to SA this year and hunt a lioness, I think you've got rocks in your noggin. I think it is quite the opposite. I think you are the problem and it will quite clearly be YOUR fault for aiding and abetting the enemy.

 

[bushpig]

My last 2c. Not going to bang on about this.

Its not a standard. Its a belief that hunting should be driven and motivated by conservation. Money is a driver, yes, but not the whole picture. Why else could Botswana do away with hunting in it's State lands (when faced with increasing revenue and pressure from the photographic safaris (I think a mistake in the long run I might add but that's another thread).

The potential for conservation provided by these canned operations is limited. And lets not kid ourselves, its money.

I don't buy the argument that we all have to stick together; rather the reputation of the whole industry is tarnished by it supporting this practice. When canned lion hunting is banned, the greater public (not the anti's) will remember that the hunting community passively supported this practice. Well not in my name anyway.

Anyway, best of luck. Like I've said you will need it. Just hope the rest of us aren't dragged down with you.

 

[TokkieM]

Anyway, best of luck. Like I've said you will need it. Just hope the rest of us aren't dragged down with you

Who is the rest of us?
Let's assume for a minute that there is no captive bred cat hunting in SA. Let's furthers assume that the demand for lions to be hunted remains on par with what it is today. Now it's about the money ( just like ,buff,Kudu,Springbuck etc) so how many lions will be "tempted" into crossing into hunting areas by Outfitters wanting to make some money if there was no captive bred cats. Even more thought provoking is how many Outfitters would put pressure on Nature Conservation to issue permits to hunt free range lion because they "became" a problem.
Nope captive bred cats do nothing for conservation in SA

You also neglect to mention how well the lions in Kenya are doing since hunting closed there,I am sure they are flourishing

Like it don't like it,but captive bred cats being hunted won't go away just as little as Kruger can control the Elephant population with their current policy.

 

[billc]

I to totally understand how it is not the hunt for some. Hell when around there friends who dont like it say what you want. Saying it to the general public and not backing other hunters looks bad period. Or better yet dont say anything to anyone if it is not your kind of hunt. Yes it is your right to have your voice but if it is not helping the cause and what do you gain from bad mouthing hunting in anyway.

It is amazing how some like to use the canned hunt phrase which is what the anti started calling it. But then those same people dont get how some of us compare them to antis. Lets see you use there phrase support something then want stopped. I am not the smartest guy walking but come on now.

Then we have I heard or years ago they did it like this. I know all lions are hunted in little pens or no way they get released far enough ahead. They have no facts but some hear say and storys they have heard. Then you have a few people who have hunted a raised lion in say the last 3 years and have had a totally different outcome. Have seen lions on kills have seen plains game roaming the same areas as the hunt happens in. The areas now are mostly 5000 but more like 10,000 acres or bigger. Many see different lions when hunting theres but no we cant be right because they know better by the storys they hear. Which by the way is normally some ph from another country or one of his clients repeating his story.

I in no way will say raised lion do alot to help wild lions. Maybe the only think they do is stop some from being poached for there bones as the SA lion market is filling that want in the china market. Yes it is mostly filling a want supplied by hunter but what on earth stays around if there is not want from man kind.

 

[Savage Hunter]

When I hear about canned hunting, I think of Elmer Fudd when he had his hunting TV show (within the cartoon).
all is done on a stage.
He would careful stalk the rabbit hole and when he gets about 10 feet from it, he'd say "Cue the rabbit".
The rabbit in the hole gets a shock and jumps up out of the hole to get shot by Elmer.

a few posts up, someone said their lion hunt was on 10,000 hectares. (about 25,000 or so acres??)
I'd say that is sufficiently large enough.
It matters not to me what other guys do.
But if I was going to hunt captive lions, I'd want some things.
1. That 10,000 hectares at least would be good.
2. Lion not just released within the last month. I'd prefer it stocked within the fenced area all it's life or a year maybe>?>?
3. I'd be totally disinterested if it was drugged or purposefully injured to make the hunt easier.

Under those conditions, I still don't think I'd hunt a lion. Too expensive. other priorities.
But I certainly don't begrudge those who hunt captive lions.
But, if the lion hunted was drugged or purposefully injured to ensure success, I'd rather you not tell me about it. But that condition is illegal anyway, isn't it?

 

[Scott Slough]

....

...............

I also do not accept the notion that speaking out against this unethical practice is somehow allying oneself with the anti-hunting community. Indeed, I believe those who support this practice do far, far more to arm our adversaries than any dissension perceived caused by me and like minded hunters who oppose the practice.

I couldn't agree more with both of these statement.

This is one of a number of VERY complex issues that hunters must deal with. How can we as a community grow if we are not allowed to have and profess different opinions? I do feel a responsibility to present and respect different perspectives as a member of this community. When I am expected to agree with and support every statement posted herein, I will no longer be a member.

There a limited number of animals in Africa that stir the hearts and emotions of non-hunters; lions, elephants, rhinos, and gorillas to name a few. And lions are at the top of that list for many! You can genetically-engineer kudu horns on an impala and shot it while it is tied to a stake and get less of a response from most Americans that you will from hunting a wild lion. There will always be more emphasis placed on lions and this practice will ALWAYS receive more scrutiny ... regardless of its legality and/or ethicality.

 

[Hank2211]

The 10,000 hectares was me. That's about 25,000 acres, or about 40 square miles. I'd bet that a lot (majority?) of elk and deer hunts in the U.S. take place on smaller properties. But that's not really the point. The point is it's plenty big enough for a lion or any other animal to get away and stay away, from you. But it's not really in a lion's nature to run far, or keep doing again and again. So it usually works.

I would never hunt any animal which had been drugged, which is, as you note, illegal anyway. That's a "canned hunt" in my books.

The antis have been very successful in extending that term to the hunt if any captive bred lion. We should not go along with that usage

We as hunters should not go along with that usage. It will only be a matter of time before "canned hunting" is extended to high fenced areas, and the shooting of other captive raised or bred animals. And at that point, there will be little hunting left in Africa that we might as well just give up.

I for one will not be a party to that. I will not use the term canned hunting for anything other than the shooting of penned animals that cannot get away. And I will call those, especially hunters (who should know better) who misuse the term.

 

[Big5]

This is one of a number of VERY complex issues that hunters must deal with. How can we as a community grow if we are not allowed to have and profess different opinions? I do feel a responsibility to present and respect different perspectives as a member of this community. When I am expected to agree with and support every statement posted herein, I will no longer be a member.

There a limited number of animals in Africa that stir the hearts and emotions of non-hunters; lions, elephants, rhinos, and gorillas to name a few. And lions are at the top of that list for many! You can genetically-engineer kudu horns on an impala and shot it while it is tied to a stake and get less of a response from most Americans that you will from hunting a wild lion. There will always be more emphasis placed on lions and this practice will ALWAYS receive more scrutiny ... regardless of its legality and/or ethicality.

Well said. And, since in an earlier post Brickburn brought up a Sun Tzu quote allow me to add another;

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles... if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.". . . . Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........
This is one of a number of VERY complex issues that hunters must deal with. How can we as a community grow if we are not allowed to have and profess different opinions? I do feel a responsibility to present and respect different perspectives as a member of this community. When I am expected to agree with and support every statement posted herein, I will no longer be a member.
.....................

.....and I will have long since left the stage and the lights will be out!

 

[BRICKBURN]

The use of the word "canned" is meant to be derogatory. Generalizing to all types of hunts is certainly incorrect.

I often refer to these things as "Boma" hunts.
Boma's are used to acclimatize animals that have been moved from one property to another and also to treat them. (A shocking revelation this first time I witnessed it)
Climb up on the fence and shoot the target. "Shooting fish in a Barrel" comes to mind.
When you can walk around the "pen" inside of a minute I do not fathom that has anything to do with hunting.

Anyone for a 29 incher. Looks to be an easy target.

Whatever term you want to use: Captive Bred, Ranch, raise and release, etc. it is hunting behind a fence. That it is a Lion is something that gets people going.
I can personally understand that type of emotional reaction.
For instance, I have come to grips with hunting Leopard, but not Cheetah. Rational or not, it is something I have not personally resolved.
At the same time one of the most incredible taxidermy mounts I have encountered is of two Cheetahs on their tree looking into the distance.

Coming from a jurisdiction that does not allow anything to be hunted inside a fence it was very strange for me to understand the culture of hunting inside a fence. (Laws requiring enclosure, private property, etc)
I had to make sure that I was hunting, not shooting. Indeed, I spent 10 days in PH school in RSA to make sure that I was part of the hunt and not just the trigger man.
This idea of hunting also had a great deal to do with the size of the property and the sustainability of the population of game in that enclosure.
I eventually figured, if Elephants were able to range free within the property it had to be large enough to allow the plains game to be self sustaining and I would be hunting. I have since refined my measurement system.

I have been on a property that I could shoot from one side to the other. By that, I mean everything was within my effective rifle range all the time without having to move.
The animals were "wild", and by that I mean, they ran at the first sight of anything human. It reminded me of Pronghorn hunting where the animals were chased by trucks and any time the animals heard a vehicle they ran and kept running.
Not on my list for a return.

It would not matter to me what species it was if it were drugged, injured or physically hindered from escaping and evading me.
Taking this Nyala fresh out of the Boma is not my idea of hunting either.
If he gets a chance to acclimatize in a new territory at his new home and knows how to escape/evade, maybe we'll meet one day. .........or perhaps we won't.

 

[Hank2211]

Brickburn, I understand what you are saying about one animal vs another, but we need to be very careful here. When I first began hunting I was against elephant hunting. How could you kill such a magnificent animal?

But I came to understand, within myself, that I could not give some animals a "right to life", and not extend that same right to all. If I can kill some animals, including domesticated ones, I had to be ok with killing any. Otherwise I was no different than those who think a baby seal is too cute to kill. And then I'm on the slippery slope to ending hunting, and, in fact, meat consumption.

I admit to different feelings when I kill an elephant vs an ostrich. So not all the way there yet emotionally. But I am intellectually, and hopefully that's how I make important decisions.

 

[billc]

This is my problem with so many of the guys who say the anti will use this. I for one have not seen as much from the anti- hunters on this subject as from other hunters. Some guy makes a movie and we act like it is thousand of people behind it. I have not seen anti's out at the shows complaining or make a big deal of raised lion hunting.Do few complain and make a big deal out of it. Well yes they do and they make a big deal out of killing of any animal. Again it is us believing what we are told by a few and screw the other hunters lets take the anti's side I know this is going to be bad for us with no proof at all.
I heard far less from guys when some guy bought the right to hunt a black rhino. He was pounded on by the antis and what did hunters do. Well they stood up for that hunter and did not give in. You dont think the same anti's want that rhino saved. They seen it was a battle they could not win and moved on. That is what they would do if hunters backed hunters on this subject.

I for one had my son do a raised lion hunt. Had more non hunters comment about it and one out of say 25 or so still had a problem with it after being told the truth. That is the truth not what I heard or want to believe. Everyone with the idea a lion holds a special place to the anti is just seeing what they want to see. They like all animals not just lions or baby hippos.

As for bringing the emotions out of anti hunters better start getting a clue that is all hunting. Antis dont care if it is a lion in 5000 acres or a kudu killed on 80,000 acres dead animals make them mad. Give in on something you may not like or want to do if you wish take there side just be ready when they come for your right to hunt what you like. It will happen and it will have nothing to do with raised lions it will just be what they pick next to save. They pick what we give them to go after us on and this is a subject we as hunters help them come after us on because some have to judge other hunters .

 

[billc]

Brickburn, I understand what you are saying about one animal vs another, but we need to be very careful here. When I first began hunting I was against elephant hunting. How could you kill such a magnificent animal?

But I came to understand, within myself, that I could not give some animals a "right to life", and not extend that same right to all. If I can kill some animals, including domesticated ones, I had to be ok with killing any. Otherwise I was no different than those who think a baby seal is too cute to kill. And then I'm on the slippery slope to ending hunting, and, in fact, meat consumption.

I admit to different feelings when I kill an elephant vs an ostrich. So not all the way there yet emotionally. But I am intellectually, and hopefully that's how I make important decisions.

That is right on the money and what so many dont get. We as hunters can not pick what animals is ok and what are not. I feel the same way about an elephant but would never try and stop someone and after learning more about it would hunt one now if I got the chance.

To many guys like to judge others and ride there high horse is the problem. All antis hate hunters which we know. never thought I would have anti's and other hunters hating on my choices of hunting. What makes it worse some just cant see how this hurt all hunting.

 

[rinehart0050]

I think the ethics of different hunting methods can quickly become a slippery slope. Hunting is like any other activity- people should practice it the way they like to practice it. No one is forced to participate in a hunting style that they find unethical- they are free to spend their money and time as they see fit. This is as it should be.

I don't believe in infringing on the rights of others, just as I don't like anyone to infringe upon my own. I fully agree with those that say hunters must present a united front, not distinguishing between species or methods.

Interestingly, its really we as individual hunters that have the right to choose between species or methods based on our personal, ethical standards. We can choose to hunt or not hunt whichever species we like, for whatever reasons we might have. The anti-hunting movement does not have the right to distinguish- they are opposed to all forms of hunting, against all species. If they aren't, their argument looses all credibility.

While they might point to lions or elephants or rhinos for publicity purposes, their fight is against all hunting. So if we cave on one, they will not leave us alone as we might hope, they will choose the next species, style, topic, target, etc.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Brickburn, I understand what you are saying about one animal vs another, but we need to be very careful here. When I first began hunting I was against elephant hunting. How could you kill such a magnificent animal?

But I came to understand, within myself, that I could not give some animals a "right to life", and not extend that same right to all. If I can kill some animals, including domesticated ones, I had to be ok with killing any. Otherwise I was no different than those who think a baby seal is too cute to kill. And then I'm on the slippery slope to ending hunting, and, in fact, meat consumption.

I admit to different feelings when I kill an elephant vs an ostrich. So not all the way there yet emotionally. But I am intellectually, and hopefully that's how I make important decisions.

I certainly feel different depending on the critter. I think we are all a little anthropomorphic in some regard. eg. Mammals vs fish; you know, the big brown eyes.
That does not mean I am about to stop hunting.
I hope I never become detached and treat animals without respect or as mere objects. (no insinuations intended)

In my mind, if it does not wrench a hunters guts when they screw up a shot on an animal then perhaps they have lost touch and need to do a hard drive reboot.

I wondered if I might be misconstrued.
In no way am I judging anyone for heading out to hunt a Cheetah, Elephant or Lion, Rhino, Hippo, Dassie, etc.. I just have not wrapped my head around hunting the Cheetah for myself.
Likely an emotional left over from a lot of Disney indoctrination. It also may be about my perception of the current state of the population.
I try to guide my decisions with science, as best I can. I also just try and make sure I am not just sipping the Koolaid!

I have to deal with peoples completely emotional reaction to hunting all the time.
If they are willing to talk, I'll educate them and share my views and listen to theirs. Typically, they just need more information because they have only been watching Disneyesque movies too.
If they are not open to listening, I leave them be.

I'll just keep struggling until I get it.

 

[BRICKBURN]

................... We as hunters can not pick what animals is ok and what are not. ...................
......................

I get the high horse thing Bill. It is annoying from either side of the fence.

Of course we can say what is ok and what is not ok to hunt.
We have to choose all the time. CITES? QUOTA?
We base those decisions on our value system. "Science", "Conservation" vs "preservation". "Sustainable use", etc.

We are perturbed by "Poachers" because .....?
It's indiscriminate, limitless, wasteful, etc.

 

[Big5]

Both of your above posts were well said Brickburn.

Additionally, those sitting on the other side of the fence will never listen to a hunter's point of view. I therefore don't waste my breath. It's the people sitting ON the fence that I try to appeal to and bring to my point of view.

 

[JGRaider]

Well dennis that is well said. Bushpig is no different the the guy who started this thread here. He does not like this type of hunting so brought it up to start all the bs. Hell he even lied when I ask him. Said he only did because he likes to watch what the antis do. If you go to the other site were this started he made his comments there that show the true reason.

Well, I didn't write the article, I read it over on AR and thought it was interesting, just as I said at first. I also told you why I thought it was interesting, and obviously it is since we're on page 3 now. I also agree with Redleg, and do not think it's hunting, which is what I posted over on AR. Lastly, I could care less how/why some poeple hunt as long as it's legal.

As to the liar thing.....I'll be happy to meet you in the AR room at DSC and let you call me a liar face to face.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Well, I didn't write the article, I read it over on AR and thought it was interesting, just as I said at first. I also told you why I thought it was interesting, and obviously it is since we're on page 3 now. I also agree with Redleg, and do not think it's hunting, which is what I posted over on AR. Lastly, I could care less how/why some poeple hunt as long as it's legal.

As to the liar thing.....I'll be happy to meet you in the AR room at DSC and let you call me a liar face to face.