Can you save having taxidermy work done in South Africa

[Royal27]

Now that is funny. We have a heat wave here in PA I can not even think how stinking hot it is in GA.

So hot i literally got pulled to the side at security due to backsweat. Charlie would have been proud!!!!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Anyone griping about heat is more than welcome to come visit Phoenix. My office is just a few mins from Sky Harbor airport and I'd be glad to pick you up and take you out to the desert for a few hours of fun in the sun. I just looked, it's 77 lousy degrees in Atlanta.....

 

[JimP]

Anyone griping about heat is more than welcome to come visit Phoenix. My office is just a few mins from Sky Harbor airport and I'd be glad to pick you up and take you out to the desert for a few hours of fun in the sun. I just looked, it's 77 lousy degrees in Atlanta.....

But it is a dry hot.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

But it is a dry hot.

Yes it helps with the dehydration.

 

[JimP]

The last time that I was in Phoenix in the summer time it was 110 at 11pm. This was in August of 1974 as I was pulling out of town headed back to the mountains.

 

[BRICKBURN]

But it is a dry hot.

 

[kgesch]

So for the sake of those who may read this thread in the future, let's see if I can come up with an accurate summary regarding taxidermy being done in the U.S. versus Africa.

A few days ago, Dennis @The Artistry of Wildlife started a thread comparing costs that @Royal27 paid for taxidermy on a previous safari versus what he would have paid Dennis. By Dennis' numbers in comparison to what Royal provided him, it turns out that Royal actually paid more that he would have paid Dennis. As to whether or not the quality of Relive's work versus what Dennis would have provided is from the comfort of my recliner impossible to say. I would say based off of what Dennis' peers say via the awards he has received, that Relive does not do a better job. So quality being considered at best equal, Royal paid more for the same. Sorry Royal, not meaning to rub salt into a wound. Now this was just one data point and I don't think Dennis was implying that this would be the case for everyone. My take from that thread was you may not be saving anything at all, you may be in fact paying more but even if you are saving some money it may not be worth it. The latter part of that last sentence is the rub. If you do save money having the work done there, just how much do you need to to make it worth it to you? The answer to that question is subjective and up to the guy paying the bill.

That thread can be seen here: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/my-studio-vs-african-studio-a-match-up-costs.30027/

This thread was started after and I presume in response to Dennis' thread. The title of the thread asks the question can you save having your taxidermy done in Africa? Well there's no question you CAN when it's all said and done, pay less. The numbers in the first post of this thread need correcting. First the numbers that Bill provided that Dennis would have charged are off by $3500 when you add them up. Those numbers also do not reflect the 10% discount Dennis gives for the volume of work. That would be an additional $3100 or so. So if you back out the total of $6600 (3500 + 3100) you end up with a proposed $32,000 Bill would have paid Dennis versus the roughly $26,000 he did pay. So he saved about $6000, or paid roughly 20% less. No big surprise there, Dennis said himself he would have been about 20% higher.

One observation of Bill's case that stands out is the giraffe. The cost difference there was the most significant. If that work was not part of the bundle, the delta between Dennis / Relive would shrink considerably. Dennis would still be more, but not quite so much either in dollars or as a percentage. I mention this only because I think it safe to say that not many hunters will do a shoulder mount of a giraffe due to its size. As such and in order for those that read this thread, this particular item, unless you're planning on having a giraffe mount done, should probably be removed to get a more useful comparison.

So we have two cases identified. One where the customer paid more than he would have if he went with Dennis and this one where Bill paid less. My own experiences support both of these cases. The taxidermist for my first safari was in RSA and specifically LifeForm. Why LifeForm? Because that's who my outfitter used and I hadn't done my homework. LifeForm does in my opinion very good work and I think they're one of the better outfits in RSA, but you pay for that. In the end there's no question in my mind that I paid overall more than I needed to. My second safari the work was done far cheaper and I'm quite certain that I paid less by having the work done there. Most of that work however is okay, average. Additionally instructions weren't followed. Finally the full mount of my son's African Wild Cat is at best quite poor. Take that piece out and I'm not really disappointed, but I'm not terribly impressed either. I got mostly what I paid for.

So a few things to consider:

1) The first question to ask isn't can you save, the question is WILL you save by using a taxidermist over there versus here?

2) If the answer to the first question is yes, then you have to ask how much?

3) After determining (guessing?) the answer to number 2 then ask if the quality of the work you think you'll receive will meet your normal expectations? If the answer to that question is no, then you need to decide if the cost savings is worth what to you is less than your expected quality?

4) Also take into consideration the intangibles. While communication with a taxidermist in Africa is certainly not impossible, it is somewhat problematic if for no other reason than the time change. If you live in the west like I do, it's that much worse due to the larger time change. What happens if there is a problem? I think it's safe to say that handling that issue with a taxidermist here versus in Africa is much easier.

5) Trophy clearance has for some reason come into the discussions. This in my opinion is noise. Whether one uses Coppersmith, F&F, SSI or clears the trophies themselves has no bearing when deciding on whether or not to do your taxidermy here or there. Whether it be finished work or skins/horns, the normal clearance procedures will come into play.

The issue really comes down to shipping. It is fairly easy to request price lists from the taxidermists and to possibly negotiate discounts for volume and compare those costs. But whether one saves or not is determined by the combined less expensive taxidermy costs but higher shipping bill from Africa in comparison to the more expensive taxidermy but lesser shipping bill by having done it in the U.S.

But determining that shipping cost of taxidermy from Africa is so hard to determine. Add to this that shipping costs likely vary with fluctuations in the cost of oil and it gets that much more complicated. I volunteered to collect data from those willing to share it, but I'm now rethinking this. It seems to me what we really need is a way to pre-determine what the shipping cost will be or at the very least a reasonable, in the ball park number. Robert SSI, I wonder if you have any ideas regarding this?

Thank you, Phil.

 

[K-man]

Wow Phil, thanks for the work and the time. Nice to have someone volunteer to do the work and do such a good job.

 

[npm352]

Between 5 hunting trips to Africa, multiple mission trips and general backpacking/low budget travel I've been to 20 African countries since 2005. Between hunting lodges, hotels, random buildings and shops and museums, I've seen taxidermy in probably half of those countries. Making the assumption that it is probably unlikely Africans would export something to the states or elsewhere and then reimport it back to Africa, I think it is safe to say its all African taxidermy. The best African taxidermy I've seen looks ok on ungulates. I've yet to see a good cat of any kind anywhere. Most of it looks like Helen Keller and Ray Charles opened up a taxidermy shop. I'd rather do less mounts and a couple European mounts to save some money than get back what they have. Plus, there is no recourse if it turns out really poorly. My two cents. Cost isn't relevant if the work is poor.

 

[johnnyblues]

I had my work done in South Africa and as near as I can figure I ended up saving.

I was wondering when you might chime in. I think this thread has gone very personal. I for one think the work Dennis put's out is excellent. I would have no problem using him on shoulder mounts or wall pedestal mounts. What I don't like to be very honest is his habitat work. But that's just me. I really enjoy good habitat on my pedestal mounts. As far as supporting our country I say yes of course when possible. I've been in the auto industry all my life and I would be hard pressed to be convinced to buy a vehicle made here. Sorry this is my area of expertise. And my opinion.

 

[CAustin]

I was wondering when you might chime in. I think this thread has gone very personal. I for one think the work Dennis put's out is excellent. I would have no problem using him on shoulder mounts or wall pedestal mounts. What I don't like to be very honest is his habitat work. But that's just me. I really enjoy good habitat on my pedestal mounts. As far as supporting our country I say yes of course when possible. I've been in the auto industry all my life and I would be hard pressed to be convinced to buy a vehicle made here. Sorry this is my area of expertise. And my opinion.

Yep no question Dennis does great work! I traded emails with him about doing some work for me and I'm sure it would be top rate. At the end of the day I'm comfortable with Capricorn out of Polokwane RSA and satisfied with what they have done for me in the past.

Now if I get a big bear here In The states in the next couple of years.....Dennis will be delivering to Kansas City.

 

[edward]

you can beat the dead horse all day long,forever,but it aint going to get up and run anymore.

 

[Gemsbok Gangsta]

So dam easy!! You get what you pay for. Bring it home

 

[billc]

So dam easy!! You get what you pay for. Bring it home

Not that dam easy because a few of us are happy with what we pay for and get.

It is simple to me because if I had to pay 6000 plus for a giraffe I would not have had it mounted. For what I paid I could afford to have it done. I am happy and think my mount looks great and most guys who have seen it thought the same.

 

[Gemsbok Gangsta]

Not that dam easy because a few of us are happy with what we pay for and get.

It is simple to me because if I had to pay 6000 plus for a giraffe I would not have had it mounted. For what I paid I could afford to have it done. I am happy and think my mount looks great and most guys who have seen it thought the same.

Perfect Bill you have found a taxidermist that does work to your satisfaction. That is a good thing. Prices good all in with shipping and your happy. I just believe I would rather have it done at home. Control and recourse are available if something goes hay wire.

 

[johnnyblues]

I don't care what anyone says. If I'm happy with my stuff than I don't care where it's mounted. The point though is well taken in the event of a problem with a mount done overseas. I live In NY. If my taxidermist is in California and I have a problem it's still a hassle. Period. I visited Paul at relive taxidermy and was pleasantly pleased with what I saw. Granted I'm no expert but neither are visitors that come to my home. I surely want them to look good I have some bad taxidermy that was done many years ago when I didn't know better. So now I have a dall sheep and brown bear that I have to live with. I think this thread is growing old quickly. BillC tried to give members his costs and I believe he was truthful. Bottom line...... Go hunt have fun a few dollars one way or another should not ruin the entire experience

 

[BRICKBURN]

 

[enysse]

A very interesting read, it got a little too personal and heated.. Bottom line the taxidermist doing work in the United States may be more money, but you will most likely be satisfied with the final product. If you have work done in Africa and it arrives here with problems, you have little recourse to fix the problem....it's going to get expensive really quick. Add up all the emails, phone calls and heartache and you will barely break even .

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

A very interesting read, it got a little too personal and heated.. Bottom line the taxidermist doing work in the United States may be more money, but you will most likely be satisfied with the final product. If you have work done in Africa and it arrives here with problems, you have little recourse to fix the problem....it's going to get expensive really quick. Add up all the emails, phone calls and heartache and you will barely break even .

This is the road I had to go down last year, and it wasn't a fun one! I was very disappointed when my taxidermy arrived from S.A. Some of the problems? The crate was damaged when it arrived.....seems like something minor, until you consider the fact that the "crate" wasn't much sturdier than some cardboard boxes........I think that if I spend several thousand dollars on taxidermy in another country, the least that can be done is to put it in a decent wooden box for shipping. I had two skull mounts done (Kudu, Impala), and two shoulder mounts (blue wildebeast & gemsbok), and a flat skin. The flat skin, impala, and gemsbok all turned out "o.k."......I say "o.k.", because they look alright, but I don't feel that they are representative of the completed work we saw at the studio, nor do I feel I got any 'value' by going with a less expensive taxidermy (which,when you add it all up, really wasn't that much "cheaper"). The kudu skull mount: it was damaged when the "crate" was damaged. Fortunately, the damage was 'minimal', but you can see that one nasal cavity is bigger than the other, and there is a blemish to the wood panel that it is mounted on. In addition, there were bugs (yes, bugs!) in the skull mount....we found them where the damage occured; I pulled them out of the spaces. The horns also had a funky smell. I took them to a local taxidermist, who suggested I treat the mount with an insect spray and leave the horns to dry out for a couple of months, which I did.....I wrapped the horns in cheese cloth and let them dry out for a few months and placed the skull and panel in a plastic bag with a decent amount of Raid. An easy fix, but for the amount of money I paid to have the work done, why should I have had to do it in the first place?
The wildebeest head has a seam showing on the shoulder, and I'm not even sure it's my wildebeest.....I look at the photos we took, and the main on the back of the neck looks longer, as well as the beard. It is also darker than what I remember, and the eyes are quite light. I'm really disappointed in the mount, as this was THE animal that I really wanted to take and bring back from Africa on this trip. Caveat Emptor!

Complain? .......to whom? The business is 8500 miles away. I complained about the crate damage to the shipping company, but basically got lip service. Comparing actual mounting prices after the fact with local taxidermists, I'm thinking (w/o doing calculations) that I probably would have done better, if not at least equal, if I had the work done here in the states. I've come to the conclusion that taxidermy done in S.A. is more of a "business", while that done here in the states is more of an "art". And as with all "art", some artists are thought of as 'better' and their work is more pleasing to the eye, therefore they command more money for their work...and they get it because they are good at what they do. Case in point? You will pay more to go and listen to a Def Leppard concert than you will to go and hear a local garage band; although you may very well be pleased with both performances, the former will almost certainly be thought of as "better" than the latter. If you are happy with taxidermy work in S.A., great........I'm very happy for you. However, after my experience, I will NEVER have any work done over there again, and will have it dip/packed and shipped home.

I also have a word of advice to any PH/Outfitters that might be reading this thread: If you "partner up" with a taxidermist, you'd better be prepared to go to bat for your clients should they be dissatisfied with the work done. I had a great experience with my outfitter; had the time of my life!!! However, I am hesitant now to recommend them, as they "steer" you to this particular taxidermist on the way back to the airport. Would I hunt with this outfitter again? Certainly......but ONLY if I had the opportunity to go with a different taxidermist for dip/pack (btw: we were informed by the taxidermist that they "didn't guarantee dip/pack, because they had "no control" of the product after it left the studio"....guess that could be said of mounts as well, couldn't it?).
I realize that these partnerships are common, and that money is changing hands in some form......and I have no problem with that; I'm a capitalist to the marrow! However, poor work on one side or the other will cost you clients.....both return clients and those who will say "you know, I had a great time on the hunt, but the taxidermy sucked.....".

Just MHO................

 

[harden]

Just to let you guys know about one of these statement , "We aren't responsible for the dip pack and the hides after they leave their place of business" from the African Taxidermist....
Now often does it happen..with a reputable dip pack ALMOST NEVER.
I may loose an impala and juts did, but that was the guy salting it, his fault in camp.
I just replaced it at my expense and never told the client, he has a good sized safari.
Every other skin was good even the 2 lions ....
I have not had a skin go bad or unmountable from any legit dip pack operation for 10-15 YEARS !
Some are hard and stiff but that's usually Zimbabwe sea salt being used.
or grease burned skins from Cameroon. dried over smoldering heat because of humidity.
Don't let all these things worry you call me and tell me where your hunting if your going to use me as your taxidermist I'll get you a reputable dip pack in the area...