Double rifle safeties

[Bert the Turtle]

I’m not sure that sweeping someone is inevitable but I agree that people are fallible.

Each layer of safety that you add, is multiplied by the previous layers. If you practice muzzle discipline, the time it will be pointing at someone should be 0%, but let’s call it 0.1% (an absurdly high number) for sake of example. Then during that 0.1%, how often will your safety be off? Say another 0.1%. Then while it is off, how often will you be in bushes? While in bushes how often will a stick pull the trigger. 0.1x0.1x0.1x0.1 is a very small number.

Now, before the statisticians chime in, I am aware that these variables may not be independent. The point is simply that if you follow basic safety practices, you have a vanishingly small chance of something bad happening.

I also agree that a sling is your friend. There is lots of talk about problems with one but I assure you that a person not used to carrying a rifle in his hands for 10 hours is going to get tired and may not shoot it well.

 

[IvW]

The problem however Frederik is if your sling does catch that one time, there are no do overs. My head PH got impaled by a Bushbuck last year because of a sling. Now you want to roll the dice on Buff, Elephant, Leopard etc. No thanks.

Just fit qd sling mounts and get rid of the sling when the chios are down.....

 

[Scanos]

Since your original question was about double rifles and has now digressed into a rehash of the African carry discussion and the absolute necessity that all new african hunters must use a sling at all times, I will try to give you an experienced answer to your original question related to double rifles. To me you are worrying about the most unlikely of incidents. First it is extraordinarily unlikely that any well made double rifle safety would be caught and swept off by branches etc. That is actually much more likely with a lever type safety like the preferred 3 position mauser safety. It actually happened to me once when a branch caught my 3 position safety. Incidently, I was using a sling with rifle slung over the shoulder. The most commonly used double rifle thumb safety slides forward to fire and back to safe. With that in mind, even if some person thought it was wise to african carry while picking their way through the Jess (while scratching the hell out of their double) it is physically almost impossible for a branch to catch the safety and push it forward.

Second, African carry with a heavy double works best in more open country putting on the miles. It has nothing to do with looking pretty nor is it inevitable you will muzzle sweep anyone. It can be a comfortable safe carry method. Probably safer than most, because, your fingers are away from the triggers. My english .500 NE was built in the early 1900's and does not have sling studs. Which I might add is not that uncommon. Going through thick cover an experienced hunter would most likely transition to another carry method. For me that is right hand muzzle down.

The most frustrating thing about the internet is the absolutist attitude by some, which has to be confusing to new african hunters. The best advice is get to know your PH before hunting with them. Discuss gun handling and safety, your PHs thoughts about it. Become familiar with your rifle. Then practice safely carrying and handling your rifle with multiple carry methods and transitioning between them. This is important, because, carry methods have to adapt to meet the needs of the terrain. In my experience, it is during the transitions where people tend to mishandle their weapons. At the end of the day, it is the PH's job to keep everyone safe. But, a trusting relationship between PH and hunter is earned in the field through safe gun handling.....whatever form that takes.

 

[IvW]

Does it have intercepting sears?

 

[VertigoBE]

Since your original question was about double rifles and has now digressed into a rehash of the African carry discussion and the absolute necessity that all new african hunters must use a sling at all times, I will try to give you an experienced answer to your original question related to double rifles. To me you are worrying about the most unlikely of incidents. First it is extraordinarily unlikely that any well made double rifle safety would be caught and swept off by branches etc. That is actually much more likely with a lever type safety like the preferred 3 position mauser safety. It actually happened to me once when a branch caught my 3 position safety. Incidently, I was using a sling with rifle slung over the shoulder. The most commonly used double rifle thumb safety slides forward to fire and back to safe. With that in mind, even if some person thought it was wise to african carry while picking their way through the Jess (while scratching the hell out of their double) it is physically almost impossible for a branch to catch the safety and push it forward.

Second, African carry with a heavy double works best in more open country putting on the miles. It has nothing to do with looking pretty nor is it inevitable you will muzzle sweep anyone. It can be a comfortable safe carry method. Probably safer than most, because, your fingers are away from the triggers. My english .500 NE was built in the early 1900's and does not have sling studs. Which I might add is not that uncommon. Going through thick cover an experienced hunter would most likely transition to another carry method. For me that is right hand muzzle down.

The most frustrating thing about the internet is the absolutist attitude by some, which has to be confusing to new african hunters. The best advice is get to know your PH before hunting with them. Discuss gun handling and safety, your PHs thoughts about it. Become familiar with your rifle. Then practice safely carrying and handling your rifle with multiple carry methods and transitioning between them. This is important, because, carry methods have to adapt to meet the needs of the terrain. In my experience, it is during the transitions where people tend to mishandle their weapons. At the end of the day, it is the PH's job to keep everyone safe. But, a trusting relationship between PH and hunter is earned in the field through safe gun handling.....whatever form that takes.

Thank you

 

[VertigoBE]

Does it have intercepting sears?

My Heym 88b does I believe, my 500NE does not to my knowledge (going off from @Red Leg ‘s description of small screws behind the action fence.)

 

[Red Leg]

My Heym 88b does I believe, my 500NE does not to my knowledge (going off from @Red Leg ‘s description of small screws behind the action fence.)

View attachment 575572

Exactly

 

[VertigoBE]

Exactly

Thanks for confirming as well. Do you know of a way to install intercepting sear safeties after the fact? Or is this impossible?

Or is there any work that could be done by a competent gunsmith to heighten the safety of such an old double rifle.

 

[zephyr]

Unfortunately it would be cost prohibitive if not impossible to install intercepting sears on a gun without them....
To carry this conversation one step further the safeties on most shotguns are Trigger Blocks only

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for confirming as well. Do you know of a way to install intercepting sear safeties after the fact? Or is this impossible?

Or is there any work that could be done by a competent gunsmith to heighten the safety of such an old double rifle.

I am no expert on such work. However, I would surmise it would require a complete rebuild of the action.

Whichever rifle it is, the gun in the photo does have them. In its case the small pins (screws) are on the lower side of the action behind the face.

Unfortunately it would be cost prohibitive if not impossible to install intercepting sears on a gun without them....
To carry this conversation one step further the safeties on most shotguns are Trigger Blocks only

That is true of most shotguns, but not of most quality double guns. For instance all of my Anson & Deeley and sidelock actioned English SxS guns have intercepting sear safeties.

 

[VertigoBE]

Whichever rifle it is, the gun in the photo does have them. In its case the small pins (screws) are on the lower side of the action behind the face.

It is a good thing I followed up then.. the picture is from my Belgian guild 500NE, and I had understood your “exactly” as confirmation that it does not have intercepting sears. That’s actually a relief…

 

[Rubberhead]

What the Youtube videos of African safaris. It's terrifying how many times the muzzle of the client's rifle swings across the PH's back. I'm not talking the no-name outfits either. Big name safari companies and very recognizable PHs. Don't they ever watch these videos after the fact?

 

[Finprof]

At trap or sporting clay shoots or silhouette matches the etiquette is to carry your firearm with the muzzle in the air. If a shotgun goes off with the muzzle down the shot could ricochet off the concrete pad.
Similarly when quail hunting, carrying muzzle down often points it directly at a dog.

 

[Warbeast]

I would be fine with external Hammers so the cocking and decocking of my Krieghoffs was even better.

I Do not prefere a trigger safety only.
Maybe my german genes would only accept 98 style safetys and hammer

 

[Altitude sickness]

I agree. I grew up with having to cock the shotgun as I shouldered it. Never had an issue safely walking with a hammer gun. Many hammer guns have half cock safety.

 

[Red Leg]

At trap or sporting clay shoots or silhouette matches the etiquette is to carry your firearm with the muzzle in the air. If a shotgun goes off with the muzzle down the shot could ricochet off the concrete pad.
Similarly when quail hunting, carrying muzzle down often points it directly at a dog.

At the hundreds (thousands?) of skeet, trap, and clay shoots in which I have participated, the etiquette is to have the gun open until it is your turn to shoot. I try not to shoot where pumps or semi-autos are allowed, so perhaps in that case muzzle up makes sense? But yes, on quail or pheasants keep the barrels elevated.

 

[Red Leg]

I agree. I grew up with having to cock the shotgun as I shouldered it. Never had an issue safely walking with a hammer gun. Many hammer guns have half cock safety.

An interesting attribute of many of the modern hammer guns is that they have a safety just like a hammerless. My Lucchini 20 hammer gun, built in the nineties, is so equipped. It has sear intercept safety just like any quality sidelock and can be used exactly the same way. You can see the safety slide at the top of the action.

 

[Altitude sickness]

That would be hard to put in the safe. It needs to be on a rack. Displayed

 

[Red Leg]

That would be hard to put in the safe. It needs to be on a rack. Displayed

That is why I have a gun room. But yes, the Italians can build a very elegant gun.

 

[Altitude sickness]

And boots, and cars, and