Experience & Value Versus Cost

[ActionBob]

no daily rates, plane fare, strippers, etc

James, am I taking this correctly that you represent outfitters who offer all of the above? If so, you've been holding out on at least some if us

 

[JamesJ]

@ActionBob sadly yes.

 

[BRICKBURN]

The Apples and Oranges argument is timeless.

With which country are these trophy fees associated:
Sable
Trophy Fee $4000
Trophy Fee $4500
Trophy Fee $3500
Trophy Fee $4000

Answers in order: Zambia, South Africa, Mozambique, Zimbabwe.

These hunts are not even for the same species nor are they going to be hunted in the same biomes, etc. Comparing price of TF's alone will leave you wanting.

Buffalo Packages
$13,000 7 days and trophy fee
$14,386 7 days and trophy fee
$10,800 6 days and trophy fee
$17,700 7 days and 2x trophy fee
$11,287 7 days and trophy fee
$12,500 5 days and trophy fee

Answers in order: Zimbabwe, Tanzania, South Africa, Tanzania, Benin, South Africa.

This list is telling, not exhaustive by any stretch. Countries that are thought to be so exotic and expensive are right in the mix. Every one of these hunts will create a drastically different experience, but they are all selling a "Buffalo"
I only went to the deals section and it did not take long to find these and compare some somewhat similar, on the face, offers.

It comes down to education.
Clients have to be able to know what they are looking at or they are in for a surprise.


When I first started my research for a hunt I looked at price lists. I needed to get a grip on approximate costs. At the very start I had no other means to differentiate. I knew absolutely nothing about species, the countries, etc.

I started the research and began to see disparities in pricing. Why was there such a difference?

How remote were these hunting properties?
Am I still getting the glow from city lights?

How large? That word "concession". Is this a contiguous property or a sum of all the property the Outfitter ever visited?

Fence, no fence. What!, they have fences? What the hell. That's illegal where I live.
Low fence. Hmmm.
Bomas. Am I shooting fish in a Barrel? "Canned" became the derogatory descriptor.
No fences.

Which leads to, what is "Wild"? Wild area, Free Range, self sustaining, etc.

Anti poaching. Is it "wild' and poached out. "Ghost Hunting"

Star ratings. By whom?
Was it a Lodge, tent, farm house, bunk house.

Getting there:
Transfer, domestic flights required, charters required, etc.
Do I have to travel for two more days and be in hotels to get there.
What about full day rates for a car ride? Am I hunting?

Do you want to see more of the countryside?

Who is going along on this trip? Can my wife's needs be met?

1x1, 2x1.
Who the hell hunts with someone else? Seemed weird to me.

Are you disabled?
Can you walk through the bloody muck for hours slicing your self to ribbons in the grass? Can you hike up the mountains, gaining thousands of feet of elevation on the hunt?

There are many variables. Spend the time to learn and don't be lazy. I like to read positive hunt reports on great experiences with pictures of great trophies added into the mix.

 

[JamesJ]

@BRICKBURN that is a great post!

 

[BRICKBURN]

@BRICKBURN that is a great post!

Nothing like facts to bugger up an argument or debunk the myths.

 

[Royal27]

Nothing like facts to bugger up an argument or debunk the myths.

I had a guy during a contract negotiation tell me to "stop confusing the issues with the facts."

Happens a lot.

 

[enysse]

Some great hunts posted for Cape buffalo in Tanzania. For the dollar they are hard to beat!

 

[JamesJ]

Looking at the price difference for exportable bulls these are number taken from the "Deals Section"

Namibian 30-40# range $28,000 10 days
Same post 14 days up to 40# $31,500 over 40# $36,500

RSA on a big ranch 25-35# 32,000 10 days

From the shows
Caprivi with no top end $34K 14 days average 40-50#
RSA 7 days 30# 35K
RSA 10 days 40#45K

The disparity, between the ranch hunts and a free range hunt is just not that much

 

[siml]

But please stop giving advice and telling us your outfitter is the best and his 500 acre farm is as good as Zim or TZ, I'm really tired of hearing it

I think this is the main point James was trying to put forward, not different countries against each other.

 

[Wheels]

Since we have been talking about buffalo, take a look at Mike70560's avatar. This has got to be one of the largest free range buff taken this millennium. In the golden age of East Africa it would have been a monster. Compare it to his rifle. On top of size, it is a mature old bull. If I remember correct, it was the only buffalo he saw on the entire safari in Mozambique. If it was a farm raised buff, a collector might pay hundreds of thousands if not more. As a stud it would probably go in the millions. As a free range bull, it cost normal rates. The experience, PRICELESS..........................................

 

[rookhawk]

A couple pieces of erata:

One, @BRICKBURN had a great post above in this thread. Everyone should save it for republication on frequent occasions here at AH.

Second, I do think that most people are not informed consumers so they pick the "cut corners" experience thinking they are saving $$$...they probably are not. You know what happens if you go to Moz, Zam, Tanz or Zim on a buff hunt but your'e slow, broken, elderly? You probably get a buffalo, just not a Rowland Ward epic buffalo. Reasonable accommodation is totally plausible even in deepest darkest Africa. Did you pay more? Maybe, maybe not.

Just like with good wine and good cigars, so to are good safaris. Price and quality only correlate on the bottom end but no longer correlate on the top end. Spend $10 on a cigar or $25 on a bottle of wine and you can have anything from amazing to crap. Spend over $15k on a buffalo hunt and you can have amazing or crap. What it costs isn't the determining factor for how good it is at a certain pricepoint.

Also, it depends on your bragging rights, ego, and desires too. I'd rather have a broken down hard boss football helmet headed buffalo that scores as 30" than to kill a 5 year old soft boss bull behind a fence that measures 42". I like hunting dugga boys and doing what I like from a fly camp hasn't cost me any more or less than doing it under different conditions through a different "special price" under different countries usually considered "Cheaper".

Best advice I can give: Find people on this board that have ethics, interests and temperament somewhat similar to yours and emulate their recommendations. I would not hesitate to take advice from @Red Leg , @Wheels , @Traditional Mozambique Safaris and many others because I'm confident they could figure out what my ideal hunting experience would be before they made a strong recommendation. Find people you wish to emulate and then listen to them.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I think this is the main point James was trying to put forward, not different countries against each other.

The Boma hunts are the most extreme example of NOT properly comparing hunts.
When the word "Buffalo" is the only thing in common between two offers, the potential client had best learn to read between the lines and find the answers.

The MYTH about affordability is usually the underpinning of the ill informed offering hunt advice.

Back to those details.....

 

[Wheels]

A couple pieces of erata:

One, @BRICKBURN had a great post above in this thread. Everyone should save it for republication on frequent occasions here at AH.

Second, I do think that most people are not informed consumers so they pick the "cut corners" experience thinking they are saving $$$...they probably are not. You know what happens if you go to Moz, Zam, Tanz or Zim on a buff hunt but your'e slow, broken, elderly? You probably get a buffalo, just not a Rowland Ward epic buffalo. Reasonable accommodation is totally plausible even in deepest darkest Africa. Did you pay more? Maybe, maybe not.

Just like with good wine and good cigars, so to are good safaris. Price and quality only correlate on the bottom end but no longer correlate on the top end. Spend $10 on a cigar or $25 on a bottle of wine and you can have anything from amazing to crap. Spend over $15k on a buffalo hunt and you can have amazing or crap. What it costs isn't the determining factor for how good it is at a certain pricepoint.

Also, it depends on your bragging rights, ego, and desires too. I'd rather have a broken down hard boss football helmet headed buffalo that scores as 30" than to kill a 5 year old soft boss bull behind a fence that measures 42". I like hunting dugga boys and doing what I like from a fly camp hasn't cost me any more or less than doing it under different conditions through a different "special price" under different countries usually considered "Cheaper".

Best advice I can give: Find people on this board that have ethics, interests and temperament somewhat similar to yours and emulate their recommendations. I would not hesitate to take advice from @Red Leg , @Wheels , @Traditional Mozambique Safaris and many others because I'm confident they could figure out what my ideal hunting experience would be before they made a strong recommendation. Find people you wish to emulate and then listen to them.

Very kind of you to say that. Not sure if it is warranted, but it is appreciated.

 

[Mekaniks]

My vote for the best post of 2017

The Apples and Oranges argument is timeless.

With which country are these trophy fees associated:
Sable
Trophy Fee $4000
Trophy Fee $4500
Trophy Fee $3500
Trophy Fee $4000

Answers in order: Zambia, South Africa, Mozambique, Zimbabwe.

These hunts are not even for the same species nor are they going to be hunted in the same biomes, etc. Comparing price of TF's alone will leave you wanting.

Buffalo Packages
$13,000 7 days and trophy fee
$14,386 7 days and trophy fee
$10,800 6 days and trophy fee
$17,700 7 days and 2x trophy fee
$11,287 7 days and trophy fee
$12,500 5 days and trophy fee

Answers in order: Zimbabwe, Tanzania, South Africa, Tanzania, Benin, South Africa.

This list is telling, not exhaustive by any stretch. Countries that are thought to be so exotic and expensive are right in the mix. Every one of these hunts will create a drastically different experience, but they are all selling a "Buffalo"
I only went to the deals section and it did not take long to find these and compare some somewhat similar, on the face, offers.

It comes down to education.
Clients have to be able to know what they are looking at or they are in for a surprise.


When I first started my research for a hunt I looked at price lists. I needed to get a grip on approximate costs. At the very start I had no other means to differentiate. I knew absolutely nothing about species, the countries, etc.

I started the research and began to see disparities in pricing. Why was there such a difference?

How remote were these hunting properties?
Am I still getting the glow from city lights?

How large? That word "concession". Is this a contiguous property or a sum of all the property the Outfitter ever visited?

Fence, no fence. What!, they have fences? What the hell. That's illegal where I live.
Low fence. Hmmm.
Bomas. Am I shooting fish in a Barrel? "Canned" became the derogatory descriptor.
No fences.

Which leads to, what is "Wild"? Wild area, Free Range, self sustaining, etc.

Anti poaching. Is it "wild' and poached out. "Ghost Hunting"

Star ratings. By whom?
Was it a Lodge, tent, farm house, bunk house.

Getting there:
Transfer, domestic flights required, charters required, etc.
Do I have to travel for two more days and be in hotels to get there.
What about full day rates for a car ride? Am I hunting?

Do you want to see more of the countryside?

Who is going along on this trip? Can my wife's needs be met?

1x1, 2x1.
Who the hell hunts with someone else? Seemed weird to me.

Are you disabled?
Can you walk through the bloody muck for hours slicing your self to ribbons in the grass? Can you hike up the mountains, gaining thousands of feet of elevation on the hunt?

There are many variables. Spend the time to learn and don't be lazy. I like to read positive hunt reports on great experiences with pictures of great trophies added into the mix.

 

[Red Leg]

The Apples and Oranges argument is timeless.

With which country are these trophy fees associated:
Sable
Trophy Fee $4000
Trophy Fee $4500
Trophy Fee $3500
Trophy Fee $4000

Answers in order: Zambia, South Africa, Mozambique, Zimbabwe.

These hunts are not even for the same species nor are they going to be hunted in the same biomes, etc. Comparing price of TF's alone will leave you wanting.

Buffalo Packages
$13,000 7 days and trophy fee
$14,386 7 days and trophy fee
$10,800 6 days and trophy fee
$17,700 7 days and 2x trophy fee
$11,287 7 days and trophy fee
$12,500 5 days and trophy fee

Answers in order: Zimbabwe, Tanzania, South Africa, Tanzania, Benin, South Africa.

This list is telling, not exhaustive by any stretch. Countries that are thought to be so exotic and expensive are right in the mix. Every one of these hunts will create a drastically different experience, but they are all selling a "Buffalo"
I only went to the deals section and it did not take long to find these and compare some somewhat similar, on the face, offers.

It comes down to education.
Clients have to be able to know what they are looking at or they are in for a surprise.


When I first started my research for a hunt I looked at price lists. I needed to get a grip on approximate costs. At the very start I had no other means to differentiate. I knew absolutely nothing about species, the countries, etc.

I started the research and began to see disparities in pricing. Why was there such a difference?

How remote were these hunting properties?
Am I still getting the glow from city lights?

How large? That word "concession". Is this a contiguous property or a sum of all the property the Outfitter ever visited?

Fence, no fence. What!, they have fences? What the hell. That's illegal where I live.
Low fence. Hmmm.
Bomas. Am I shooting fish in a Barrel? "Canned" became the derogatory descriptor.
No fences.

Which leads to, what is "Wild"? Wild area, Free Range, self sustaining, etc.

Anti poaching. Is it "wild' and poached out. "Ghost Hunting"

Star ratings. By whom?
Was it a Lodge, tent, farm house, bunk house.

Getting there:
Transfer, domestic flights required, charters required, etc.
Do I have to travel for two more days and be in hotels to get there.
What about full day rates for a car ride? Am I hunting?

Do you want to see more of the countryside?

Who is going along on this trip? Can my wife's needs be met?

1x1, 2x1.
Who the hell hunts with someone else? Seemed weird to me.

Are you disabled?
Can you walk through the bloody muck for hours slicing your self to ribbons in the grass? Can you hike up the mountains, gaining thousands of feet of elevation on the hunt?

There are many variables. Spend the time to learn and don't be lazy. I like to read positive hunt reports on great experiences with pictures of great trophies added into the mix.

That was really well said.

 

[BRICKBURN]

My vote for the best post of 2017

Now you just set the bar and I have to do better.

That was really well said.

Thanks.

 

[Nyati]

A very good post James, but I would not put all the blame on the outfitter, quite often it´s the "hunter" who is to blame, as he just wants a huge trophy that he can brag about, never mind how he gets it. But he wants it cheap.

I have seen it done, more than once.

The outfitted is after all running a business and he obliges, happy customer !

 

[JamesJ]

@Nyati you are very correct, but I was more focused on outfitters who oversell the hunt in an effort to get business.

If a client says I have three days to get a 200" deer, he usually knows what the story is.

I'm not against the fenced hunts, it serves a very important part in our world today, I just want people to be honest and forthright when they are selling these hunts. if your place is 1,000 acres and the client is happy then by all means sell it, no one is misled.

 

[ActionBob]

Fantastic thread! I've been wanting to get back to it but had a very full day. Brickburn really added a great post, summing up much of my own growth through Africa Hunting experiences. Although I admit I did not put that much effort into it. I simply booked my first hunt with James and it turned out fantastic all around.

Since then I have ventured off many other ways. Mostly late season discount hunts off this board. Which if I could add two financial scenarios to what James started with. If you save up both money and time, there have been some great last minute deals these past couple years. Granted you may suffer less than ideal weather and possibly hunting conditions, but there is often oppertunty hidden in adversity

And to my second point, not for most... But save a bit, and invest to grow it. Take some risk and you may be able to double (or more) your savings and hunting budget. Of course there is risk, but that is how I have been able to do this.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Been thinking about this thread all day long but having only got home from work at 8pm tonite, I've not had time to reply as I'd like to. It's now nearly 10:30pm and I'm tired......dang that Vegas. This thread has greatly turned into a discussion on pricing, but there was more to James' original post that he touched on than just that. A few thoughts/questions regarding those issue before I fall asleep at the keyboard:

1. This is AfricaHunting.com, not SouthAfricaHunting.com. The forum is supposed to be about hunting in Africa as a whole.

2. In light of item 1, I think it's obvious that I don't take issue with hunting in RSA, sure would put me in a spot if I did. RSA has as much to be proud of regarding conservation of African species as any other country in Africa. And more so than I'm sure many of the countries that make up the vast continent.

3. What do you want AfricaHunting.com to be? I love this forum, have made many good friends from all across the USA as well as around the world. What makes me proud to be a part of this great group is the way we treat each other as a whole. This is by far the friendliest forum of any kind that I've ever been a part of. But honestly, it could be even better. In other forums, this place takes some criticism. This is for various reasons, many which I totally disagree with and wouldn't change AH to appease them. BUT.....the one thing we lack here is the overall experience that other forums have. When you post here, does your post invite that sort of experience to come in and stay, or is it inclined to push seasoned hunters away?

4. Following on item 3, when you see a new thread that you think you could add to, read the original post thoroughly so that your reply will make sense. Before you hit the Post Reply button, re-read your reply once or twice and ask yourself if this is contributing to the OP's post. A thread that I believe James is referring to was recently posted was in regard to a buff hunt. The gent who posted specifically said he wanted a free range, unfenced buff hunt and in a country other than RSA. It didn't take long before there were those who replied pushing a RSA buff hunt. Why? Would I have liked to book the gent to a hunt at Serapa? Sure I would, and I believe I could've met his budget. But he specifically said he wanted it to be a free range hunt. I believe on Serapa's 46K acres it would not matter, but I'm not going to try an talk the man into something he doesn't want. I know the next time I head to a Toyota dealer to buy another Tundra if the salesman tries to talk me into a Tacoma because he either doesn't have what I want or didn't listen to know what I'm there for, I'm walking out and quickly.

5. AH I believe is supposed to be money making business for Jerome. It certainly isn't here for him to lose money. Part of what covers the cost to run this forum and by extension make money is the advertising that comes with sponsorship of the website. Sponsorship costs money, money which comes from a marketing budget. Sponsors need to realize a return on that investment. If there is no positive ROI, why would the sponsor renew? Why wouldn't they spend their marketing dollars somewhere else? I say this as there continues every so often to be criticism and/or what I'd call negative comments in hunt offers. I just don't understand that. If you don't like the offer, it's simple, don't buy it. But there's no reason to talk badly of the offer. If you do so, while it may not be your intent, you are in fact pushing that sponsor away from AH. Is that really something you want to do? There's a new Porsche dealer about 10 minutes from my house. I can't ever imagine I'll ever darken their doorway, much less buy one of their cars. But I'm quite happy to have them in my town, they employ people and I'm sure the city will realize some amount of revenue from their presence.

Well it's 11pm and I can barely read what I'm typing. If I've come across a bit strong, my apologies, blame it on a long two days following a week in Vegas.