For those that can't afford the Rigby Big Game or Heym Express, What's the next best thing?

[Beck]

Maybe I should have clarified but I already own a CZ550, Model 70 Safari Express and Ruger M77. Love all three of them but am looking for those that are a step above in workmanship.

I'm unfamiliar with Kimber, and Cooper and Montana Rifle Company etc. I wasn't sure if they were in the same range as Dakota /PWA.

It doesn't sound like they are.

Sako

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, magnum length CRF bolt action rifles.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around that Model 70s in 375 and 416 aren't using magnum length actions for what Ive always assumed were magnum length cartridges?

I'm guessing the actions have been modified (material removed) to accommodate these larger cartridges into a standard length action?

I own a Safari Express in 458 WinMag so I'm guessing the same length action is used on the longer 375 and 416 RemMag versions of that same rifle?

I think I'm fairly set on a 416 Rigby so I will infact need to find something with a true Magnum length action to accommodate such a cartridge.

Same length A Win 70 standard long action is used for both the 375HH & 416 Rem Mag as @mark-hunter posted. For standard length cartridges like the 30-06, a spacer is used in the magazine box along with a matching length follower. The standard long action also has the correct length bolt stop and standing ejector for that length cartridge. For a 375 HH magnum length, the magazine box spacer is removed and a magnum length follower is added. The bolt stop is shortened along with the standing ejector. The cut-outs are milled (or ground) into the receiver "top port" to improve loading and ejection clearance... one variation as pictured in the post by @mark-hunter. The bolt face is milled (enlarged) to appropriate diameter to fit the slightly larger case head. Also a "magnum" extractor is added with slightly larger claw radius to accommodate the larger case head. That's about it. Those are the steps a smith should take when converting a standard length Win M70 to one of the 375 HH length magnums. It is not a difficult conversion for a decent gunsmith.

 

[Bonk]

I own all four of the rifle makes you mention. I like them all. Any one of them is a solid choice for a DG gun. However, there’s a difference in terms of design, refinement, fit and finish. The Kimber is a cut above the other 3. It should be, since it’s more expensive than the others. Whether it’s worth it is for the buyer to decide.

I too have owned or still own all four and in my experience the Kimber was the least desirable of the bunch. In fact the Kimber is the only one I don't still own because of how unreliable it was.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Voere does a really lovely Model 2165 in 9.3x64mm Brenneke.

There's also the Blaser Model R-8.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Any opinions on how would a a fully blueprinted Winchester Model 70 action reworked my a major US gunsmith would compare to a Dakota 76?

Quite a broad question, but would the action themselves be significantly different?

The actions are VERY similar - Pete Grisel (inventer of the Dakota action and former partner of Don Allen) told me that he was building his version of the M70 CRF action. I would rate the custom-made M70 as equal to the Dakota 76, depending on finish, wood quality and other furnishings.

Kimber, Dakota, or custom Mauser at resale would yield a rifle to be proud of and better than a new factory rifle in almost all cases.

 

[BeeMaa]

Another company that I've found is Bansner & Co.
https://www.bansnerandcompany.com/bansner-custom-rifles/grand-safari/

Bansner is making an action similar to the LAW704 used by Legendary Arms Works now called the BM-1. I'm not sure if it's a direct copy or what upgrades have been made.

What I do know is that I was walking by a booth at SCI 2023 and saw what looked like a LAW704 action. It caught my eye because in the late 20-teens I was looking for a rifle for my wife and the LAW704 fit my list of requirements. After talking to the person in the booth it was clear that we had met before at a show many years ago in Harrisburg, PA. He was working for (part owner of) LAW at the time.

I'm not sure what kind of pricing they are asking for DG legal calibers, but I know it's a quality product.

 

[fourfive8]

Especially rifles that come availible in 416 Rigby with the traditional African rifle aesthetics. What would be the next best thing one price category below those two but above the likes of CZ, Winchester, Ruger etc?

ParkWest Arms? Kimber? Montana Rifle?

Who else is still producing premium CRF bolt guns these days?

My opinion only! Find a lightly used, lightly shot Win M70 in 416 Rem Mag made in New Haven between about 2000 and 2006. You can find these, if patient, for around 1500 in exc. to top condition. Don't worry too much about cosmetics and certainly not about bore being shot out as these type rifles get shot more on the internet than at the range. Find a gunsmith who can correctly pillar bed rifles. Pillar bed and have smith set the M70 original style trigger to about 4 lb. Mount a simple, low power scope with adequate 4.5" plus eye relief and presto! That will simplify your life, you get a most capable and reliable DG rifle and you can spend the extra $ saved (possibly several thou) on another trip. I don't care what anyone says about the 416 Rem Mag. Load a 416 Rem Mag with good ammo and bullets and given it has identical ballistics to the Rigby, it will perform identically. If you reload, use a Hodgon extreme powder like Varget under an A-Frame or TSX or North Fork CPS bullet and you are in business! Load 400 gr bullets to about 2350 fps with one of the suitable Hodgdon Extreme powders and you are in a happy place

 

[fourfive8]

I've owned and re-worked two of these late New Haven 416 Rem M70s. Currently own the one pictured below- DOM 2003. I learned how to pillar bed to save money. Setting trigger is easy- follow instructions, common online for pre-2006 M70 triggers. Itemized cost of this rifle finished.... 1,350 base cost of used rifle + 300 scope + 75 mix and match dual dovetail mounts + 20 for pillar bed material. Total= 1745.00. There are no flies on this rifle. As a bonus, these late model New Haven 416 Rem Mags have, IMO, the smoothest, most reliable ammo cycling of any bolt action- period. They come with the best safety and and most fool proof trigger ever designed for a hard use hunting rifle. They have the often-overlooked anti bind feature Winchester incorporated into their M70s in the mid post-64, push feed era.

You can sit around a safari camp and discuss bolt actions. Possibly, one or two may bring up their bespoke such and such rifles. Nothing wrong with that. Many will have stocks costing more than the rifle I just described, where the hunter will be automatically afraid of every thorn bush that might scratch that 2500 custom timber. Then the bottom line subject of functioning of the bespoke DG rifle needs to be breached- smoothness and reliability of the action including smoothness and reliability of picking up and cycling cartridges, the trigger and the safety. Compare those rifles to these M70s 416 Rem Mags head to head and listen for the "yabuts"

 

[ChrisG]

Nice find! The H&H QD scope mount is about $9k to install on a rifle (done by H&H). This rifle would be incredible value at $1k imo.

I was just reading this thread with interest with no intent to comment but.... $9k for a scope mount!? What are people smoking? Are the people who buy this stuff (Assuming they exist) literally under the impression that old world craftsmen hand file each of these from a 100lb chunk of meterorite, then hand polish them with a cashmere rag and diamond dust while throwing logs of Macassar Ebony on a fire to stay warm?! If they were made of solid Silver maybe.... (wouldn't hold up well under recoil). Anyone who's paying $9k for scope rings and bases, has no concept of what it takes to make something like that (with a CNC no less). Thats a joke. Conspicuous consumption is all it is. I'd pay $9k for something that was ACTUALLY hand made... but these aren't. Tool and die makers make more complicated parts to much higher precision and much higher quality all the time and it isn't $9k.

Sorry for the rant. Back to your regularly scheduled program...

 

[Rare Breed]

I just checked your location. Being in Canada, check out Ralf Martini’s site from time to time. He has some solid upper mid-grade rifles at times. Also Ellwood Epps.

i want to echo this given i bought a DR from Ralf. while he is now doing better showing US pricing when i bought my DR he was showing CAD which of course is higher…i had to slow down then do the conversion to realize the value

 

[fourfive8]

Aside from the fit/finish and artistic/aesthetic qualities of a rifle, I think its reliable function and basic accuracy should be at least of equal or greater value and weight than subjective aesthetics. I have studied various Mauser and Mauser type bolt actions comparing reliable and smooth function- one to another. The differences among the group are great and obvious when cycling. However it can be very difficult to visually determine the exact reason (s) for those differences in reliability and smoothness of function. I did some slo-mo video to help "see" what was going on when a bolt is cycled. One thing I found was in some Mauser actions there is a much more pronounced jump in relative elevation from the cartridge "on deck" in the magazine to the axis of the chamber/bore. By definition in the CRF action, the extractor captures the case head as the bolt face forces the cartridge forward. During the forward motion, the cartridge has to make two changes of direction to get lined up with the chamber. First the bullet hits the ramp tipping the cartridge up. The cartridge continues forward being pushed by the bolt face. Then the cartridge tips back down as the case head slides up the bolt face as the rim comes under full capture of the extractor claw and the cartridge comes into alignment with the axis of the chamber. The range of this porpoising movement is determined by how much difference there is between the cartridge level (elevation) in the on-deck position in the magazine and the axis of the chamber/bore plus the shape/height of the ramp. The greater that elevation difference the greater the relative "herky jerky" motion will be seen and felt during the chambering... no matter how smoothly polished the parts in battery may be. Once you try different actions side by side and closely study what is really going on, you can start assessing the causes for lack of smoothness and reliability of function. Of course the width and shape of the feed rails can have a major affect on how smoothly the cartridge transitions from magazine to chamber alignment. I would suggest the exercise of cycling the action of any potential DG rifle with empty or dummy cartridges before purchasing. Do that cycling fast and with purpose. It can be an eye opener.

I can for example load the magazine with empty cases in my M70 416 Rem Mag and cycle the magazine empty as fast as I can cycle the bolt. I cannot tell the difference in similarly cycling loaded cartridges other than I can feel the difference in the greater inertial mass of the loaded cartridges. Both late New Haven, factory Win 70s in 416 Rem Mags I've owned have functioned identically without any modification. I believe this reliability and smoothness is a function of the near perfection of design of this model, especially in 416 Rem Mag. In studying the forward bolt cycle and cartridge movement in this model using simple slo-mo video, I think much can be attributed to the minimal amount of porpoising the cartridge does as it moves forward and upward into the chamber. The feed rails hold the cartridges with just the right amount of tension and in an optimal but slightly offset alignment necessitated by the geometry of stacking. Additionally, there is minimal porpoising over the ramp and the ramp is minimal for its task of initiating the alignment of the bullet/front of the cartridge into the chamber. That minimal ramp greatly reduces the porpoising of the cartridge as it moves forward and upward. I have some of these slo-mo videos but it is a total PITA to post videos through a third party site. So you will just have to study it in your rifle for yourself if interested. IMO, if several thousand dollars are on the line for a serious DG rifle and that rifle will be used on a hunt that could run into many thousands of dollars. Aside from just looking perdy, it might pay to make sure the thing works right

 

[Luederitz]

If you´re in Europa there are few gunsmith in Germany who are capable to modify a Mauser 66 action up to .460 Wea Mag.
Personally I own (beside others) a 9,3x64, a 9,5x66SE, a .416 Ruger and a .450 Rigby.
The price for a used M66 is far below 1000€, costs for a new barrel approx. 1000€. In total you will pay for the gun and for all gunsmith work 2000-2500€.

If you rely on the M98 action, then you should consider cartridges which are within the 85mm limit like the .375/416. Ruger, the 9,5x66SE, the .458 Win Mag for instance.
This will work in Africa.

This year a friend of mine and I were hunting in Zimbabwe. My friend carried a new Rigby in .416 Rigby, I used my M66 in .416 Ruger.
I paid less for my complete rifle than my friend paid for his Swarovski Z8i....
The result on the buffalo was the same.

 

[Altitude sickness]

FourFive8, I was shooting my model 70 classic .300 H&H yesterday and actually paused to reflect how amazing the action was. And it doesn’t shoot bad either.

5 shot group at a target I had already shot the bull with a different rifle. So just held off and fired quickly
I pulled the bottom two But the top three are one ragged hole A better shot could do even better with that rifle

quickly

 

[CoElkHunter]

FourFive8, I was shooting my model 70 classic .300 H&H yesterday and actually paused to reflect how amazing the action was. And it doesn’t shoot bad either.

5 shot group at a target I had already shot the bull with a different rifle. So just held off and fired quickly
I pulled the bottom two But the top three are one ragged hole A better shot could do even better with that rifle View attachment 571974quickly View attachment 571976View attachment 571977

That is some gorgeous wood on that rifle.

 

[expresshunt]

If you´re in Europa there are few gunsmith in Germany who are capable to modify a Mauser 66 action up to .460 Wea Mag.
Personally I own (beside others) a 9,3x64, a 9,5x66SE, a .416 Ruger and a .450 Rigby.
The price for a used M66 is far below 1000€, costs for a new barrel approx. 1000€. In total you will pay for the gun and for all gunsmith work 2000-2500€.

If you rely on the M98 action, then you should consider cartridges which are within the 85mm limit like the .375/416. Ruger, the 9,5x66SE, the .458 Win Mag for instance.
This will work in Africa.

This year a friend of mine and I were hunting in Zimbabwe. My friend carried a new Rigby in .416 Rigby, I used my M66 in .416 Ruger.
I paid less for my complete rifle than my friend paid for his Swarovski Z8i....
The result on the buffalo was the same.


View attachment 571968View attachment 571969

Great post Luederitz,
Those 66 are stunning actions... well done. Nice cartridge that 416Ruger. I have a friend in NSW with a few M66... and I nearly bought a 375H&H here a year ago AUD$3000, should have. Best thing with the 66 and the Blasers, is the overall length, shorter than others, but still with the desire barrel length/s.
Most of us guides have our longer CZ etc... but I'm lopping everything to 23" barrels now, our 375s and 404s.. All loads are mild, velocity over 2250 to 2300 is all you need and shot placement the key. Keen to find a couple of classic old 458WMs for the safari camp gunrack too... now we have more bullet selections, weights, barnes X etc. Getting close up on DG... so addictive..!!! Graham

 

[expresshunt]

The problem with making a lovely custom rifle, the cost end up double..!!!

 

[mdwest]

The problem with making a lovely custom rifle, the cost end up double..!!!

Tripling if you aren’t careful

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Go to auction and buy a good second-hand rifle.

As an example, here is a .416 Rigby by Paul Roberts. Yours for around $1,000. (In my opinion, and subject to getting a condition report, it's a steal at that price.)

That's the auction estimate. I bet it goes for a lot more than that. I wonder why someone would have that action and barrel stuck on a laminate stock? Perhaps he wanted the added weight. I would. 416 Rigby is a kicker.

 

[Major Bonkers]

I'm not particularly sure that it will go for more: the general tenor in Britain is against the private ownership of rifles and big game hunting in particular. There is a very limited domestic market for this type of rifle and, if we are honest, if you can afford even a cheap safari you can afford a more expensive rifle than this.

As with buying any rifle at auction, a condition report is vital before bidding; but again, most big bore rifles are expensive to shoot and can often be bought in very good used condition. An important question to raise is the weight of the rifle, as you suggest.

Paul Roberts, of course, previously owned Rigby back in the '80s and '90s, and although it has his name on it rather than 'Rigby', it was made by someone who knew what he was doing. As far as I am concerned, it answers the original question of a good quality .416 at a reasonable price. I do not recognise the action offhand - Husqvana, perhaps?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I built my own 404 Jeffery and it came in right at $2K. The action is post war BRNO vz.24 Mauser 98, barrel is Lija (Plains, MT), 416 Rem Mag bottom metal from Swift-Blackburn, iron sights from 1990s Winchester Safari Express (eBay), Warne QD rings, COOP USA steel base, Timney trigger, Parkwest 3-position Model 70 style safety, New England Custom Gun magnum follower, and semi-finished stock I bought from an old gent in Manitouwadge off GunPost. I was in a hurry to finish this gun in time for August safari. Figured I would get better wood later when I had more time to shop, but it turned out well. The action originally came with a 30-06 barrel (maker unknown). I could only find one barrel maker in Canada who could do 404, a very pleasant Aussie chap up in Red Deer, but he only had stainless blanks. He agreed a stainless barrel dangerous game rifle might be an odd duck. So I ordered one from Lija. They have a good reputation and turnaround fit my schedule (barely). Because of new US export restrictions on gun parts, I had to take the gun across to Montana as a whole rifle with 30-06 barrel attached (I'm a US citizen and have Ontario PAL so no problems crossing with guns) and had the barrel swapped down there, then brought it back. My brother in Montana actually ordered the barrel and he "gifted" it to me. All entirely legal. There are Canadian barrel makers who produce quality 375 or 416 barrels, just nothing in 404. I modified the receiver to feed 404 cartridges. Not a job for a novice, which I am, but I did it. The gun cycles smoother than any factory rifle I've ever handled. A local machinist was willing to tackle opening the bolt face. Duane Wiebe's booklet was a great help for that. The scope is a 1972 Weaver 3x I retired from my deer/elk/moose 30-06 a few years ago. I'll probably pick up better glass this coming year. A moose hunting outfitter in New Brunswick did the bluing. Originally I purchased a fancy "Old English" red recoil pad to fit the dangerous game rifle image but boffed the measurements and had to toss it. No time to order another so I recycled the black one from a broken shotgun stock (that had a ton of history). Turned out okay. Stock came with one crossbolt and rather than take the time (which I didn't have) to build a jig and drill a second one behind the magazine, I dropped in an internal crossbolt a la Roy Weatherby.

Anyway, you can buy a new rifle or pick one up used but it will never have the personal history of a gun you made or had made. Look at the above story I can now hand down with this rifle when my grandson gets it.