For those that can't afford the Rigby Big Game or Heym Express, What's the next best thing?

[cajunchefray]

I was just reading this thread with interest with no intent to comment but.... $9k for a scope mount!? What are people smoking? Are the people who buy this stuff (Assuming they exist) literally under the impression that old world craftsmen hand file each of these from a 100lb chunk of meterorite, then hand polish them with a cashmere rag and diamond dust while throwing logs of Macassar Ebony on a fire to stay warm?! If they were made of solid Silver maybe.... (wouldn't hold up well under recoil). Anyone who's paying $9k for scope rings and bases, has no concept of what it takes to make something like that (with a CNC no less). Thats a joke. Conspicuous consumption is all it is. I'd pay $9k for something that was ACTUALLY hand made... but these aren't. Tool and die makers make more complicated parts to much higher precision and much higher quality all the time and it isn't $9k.

Sorry for the rant. Back to your regularly scheduled program...

Now that is something funny.
Good insight.

 

[cajunchefray]

Especially rifles that come availible in 416 Rigby with the traditional African rifle aesthetics. What would be the next best thing one price category below those two but above the likes of CZ, Winchester, Ruger etc?

ParkWest Arms? Kimber? Montana Rifle?

Who else is still producing premium CRF bolt guns these days?

Check out Gulf Breeze Firearms, Gulf Breeze Florida ( in the panhandle of the Florida Gulf Coast)

I’ve been in their shop once on my way to the beach in Destin.

Long time dealer in Dakota rifles and many proper safari rifles and custom guns.

They list some guns on Guns International, but not all. They may be able to source a good used rifle, lots of retired folks there.

It’s worth a call.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not for Nothing, @Ontario Hunter, and while everyone is entitled to their opinion and designs they like, IvW is a Professional Hunter in Africa, so I would lean towards his point being accurate and not unfounded. Iron sighted bolt guns with a straight bolt that protrudes a little more will be faster and easier to manipulate under stress than one which is swept back. It also moves the bolt handle a little further from the trigger finger so when firing from the hip at a leopard who you didn't see until he was springing from 6ft, or when a wounded Brown Bear in the alders comes knocking, you lessen the risk that you break your trigger finger. They will require medium scope rings usually, but that's a sacrifice to make the bolt function more reliable.

The barrel band sling swivel mad8mme sense when all rifles sported 24" barrels and, when slung, a rifle so configured sits with the muzzle about head height and doesn't catch on high twigs as much. carry muzzle down solves this, but also risks filling the bore full of mud if the carrier slips.

The features on dangerous game guns all have/had a very practical purpose. Nowadays, some of them might be "fashion" but they still serve the purpose they were developed for 140 years ago.

I'm totally at a loss to see how a bolt handle knob way forward at the back of the magazine is somehow faster to cycle than one that is swept back and hovering right over the trigger. The shooter's hand is, after all, way back there when he fires the shot. Reaching forward of the trigger guard to grasp the bolt handle clearly requires more time. Speed = distance ÷ time. The distance is greater to reach a straight drop bolt and if the ability to grasp a knob is a constant (a knob is a knob is a knob), then a straight drop bolt ahead of the trigger guard must be slower to cycle than one that is swept back above the trigger. It's a basic law of physics. I submit the difference in cycling speed would in reality be negligible, but the point is it's absurd to declare the straight drop bolt has any advantage of speed in cycling over swept back design. It simply cannot. So, why does Westley Richards, Jeffery, H&H, etc make their guns that way? Because that's the way Paul Mauser made them over a hundred years ago. He was truly a genius but some of his design underwent improvement, even in his own time. WR, H&H, et al sell golden age safari nostalgia as much if not more than anything else. And judging by their prices, nostalgia sells very well indeed. And that's fine. I love restoring old furniture and my late wife collected antique flow blue pottery. But would I argue my Mauser 98 is better than a R8? No. And no one could give me a goofy R8 even though the engineering and design are undeniably superior.

Sacrificing quick scope acquisition merely for the cosmetics of a "classic" straight drop bolt design makes no sense, ESPECIALLY in a dangerous game rifle. If I can't close my eyes, quickly mount the gun, and be looking instantly at the crosshairs when I open them, those medium rings are going down the road and someone can bend the bolt till the scope is where it must be for fast acquisition low rings.

I hunted with a PH who thought a yearling cow wildebeest was an old bull. It was an expensive mistake ... for him. Being a PH doesn't make one always right.

 

[colorado]

My opinion. The CZ 550 is pretty nice. I have one in 416 Rigby and I love it. I'm the original owner and plan on upgrading it in the future. But as is it is a great rifle. Even though I know the original post said above a CZ.

I like mine in 500 Jeffery.

 

[IvW]

Try again. Technology will not defeat me. Damn artificial intelligence!

I win! If there is a better way to post videos, I would appreciate advice. I also have a video of snap over on cartridges dropped in the chamber if anyone is interested. No? Oh well ...

We prefer open palm with the rifle butt in the shoulder to reload as apposed to the clenched fist technique with the rifle at hip level....

 

[RR 314]

Hope the OP is still checking this. . I just went into one of the safes and saw a rifle I forgot about. Look for Sterling Davenport rifles on the auction sites. They come up from time to time and can be great values.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

We prefer open palm with the rifle butt in the shoulder to reload as apposed to the clenched fist technique with the rifle at hip level....

My laptop is sitting on the bunk at waist level, hence the filming is at waist level. Actually, yes I do remount the gun when I reload. Every year I shoot thousands of rounds that way low gun at the skeet and clays range. Mount, acquire, fire, all in one continuous motion. I can do it just as efficiently with my rifle. Shot this gemsbuck incoming at a gallop twenty yards away in the heart and then again in the heart as she ran by at twelve yards. Not sure if she was charging or we were just in the way. At that range I didn't wait to find out.

I'm at a loss to see how working the bolt with an open palm is any more efficient than gripping the knob with "clenched fist." More aerodynamic maybe? It certainly would be the less efficient method if the round bolt knob rolls out of the PH's open palm while attempting to reload for a followup shot at a charging animal. That's not going to happen with my "clenched fist" gripping the knob. But I'm sure your open palm method probably looks very sexy.

We digress. You still haven't explained why the OP should go with a straight bolt over a bent one when choosing his dangerous game rifle. If it's purely asthetics, that's fine. Just say so.

 

[WAB]

My laptop is sitting on the bunk at waist level, hence the filming is at waist level. Actually, yes I do remount the gun when I reload. Every year I shoot thousands of rounds that way low gun at the skeet and clays range. Mount, acquire, fire, all in one continuous motion. I can do it just as efficiently with my rifle. Shot this gemsbuck incoming at a gallop twenty yards away in the heart and then again in the heart as she ran by at twelve yards. Not sure if she was charging or we were just in the way. At that range I didn't wait to find out.
View attachment 572289
I'm at a loss to see how working the bolt with an open palm is any more efficient than gripping the knob with "clenched fist." More aerodynamic maybe? It certainly would be the less efficient method if the round bolt knob rolls out of the PH's open palm while attempting to reload for a followup shot at a charging animal. That's not going to happen with my "clenched fist" gripping the knob. But I'm sure your open palm method probably looks very sexy.

We digress. You still haven't explained why the OP should go with a straight bolt over a bent one when choosing his dangerous game rifle. If it's purely asthetics, that's fine. Just say so.

If you read back up the thread it was explained.

 

[Captain Munro]

Check out Gulf Breeze Firearms, Gulf Breeze Florida ( in the panhandle of the Florida Gulf Coast)

I’ve been in their shop once on my way to the beach in Destin.

Long time dealer in Dakota rifles and many proper safari rifles and custom guns.

They list some guns on Guns International, but not all. They may be able to source a good used rifle, lots of retired folks there.

It’s worth a call.

I second this recommendation! Went there when I was at Orange beach, made a special trip because I talked to the Gulf Breeze folks at DSC, and they were happy to let me look at everything in the showroom and even let me into the gun vault to see the best stuff. They had a Heym Martini that I almost sold my Jeep to buy! Haha

 

[WAB]

I second this recommendation! Went there when I was at Orange beach, made a special trip because I talked to the Gulf Breeze folks at DSC, and they were happy to let me look at everything in the showroom and even let me into the gun vault to see the best stuff. They had a Heym Martini that I almost sold my Jeep to buy! Haha

Agreed, Duke is a good guy and knows firearms.

 

[IvW]

My laptop is sitting on the bunk at waist level, hence the filming is at waist level. Actually, yes I do remount the gun when I reload. Every year I shoot thousands of rounds that way low gun at the skeet and clays range. Mount, acquire, fire, all in one continuous motion. I can do it just as efficiently with my rifle. Shot this gemsbuck incoming at a gallop twenty yards away in the heart and then again in the heart as she ran by at twelve yards. Not sure if she was charging or we were just in the way. At that range I didn't wait to find out.
View attachment 572289
I'm at a loss to see how working the bolt with an open palm is any more efficient than gripping the knob with "clenched fist." More aerodynamic maybe? It certainly would be the less efficient method if the round bolt knob rolls out of the PH's open palm while attempting to reload for a followup shot at a charging animal. That's not going to happen with my "clenched fist" gripping the knob. But I'm sure your open palm method probably looks very sexy.

We digress. You still haven't explained why the OP should go with a straight bolt over a bent one when choosing his dangerous game rifle. If it's purely asthetics, that's fine. Just say so.

Typical reply from you who is actually clueless although you profess to be a gunsmith....

All of the reputable dg rifle manufactures who have been building dg game rifles since before you where born have built them with straight bolts bent down not backwards and down....very simple...

When reloading with the rifle in shoulder your hand is further forward...

Mannlicher schoenauer in your opinion must then be a true piece if shit as the bolt handle is well ahead of the trigger.....

"Looks sexy" just enforces how clueless you are when it comes to using big bore DG game rifles on magnum length actions in big bores under charge situations.....

The bolt needs to be operated with authority, backwards as well as forwards.....this can simple not be done when holding the bolt knob with clenched fingers......talk about slipping out the hand... when reloading with theopen palm technique it simply cannot slip out of anything. Simole reliable and used by DG professionals all over the world....

I guess you also prefer checkering on the bolt for better "grip".....

But of course you can employ whatever technique you want and build your rifles the way you want.....

 

[ay2626]

There have been a few who mentioned the preferred set up is no checkering on the bolt knob. That is how my rifle is built but hadn’t really considered the advantage of that compared to a bolt handle with checkering. Can someone educate me on that?

 

[BeeMaa]

There have been a few who mentioned the preferred set up is no checkering on the bolt knob. That is how my rifle is built but hadn’t really considered the advantage of that compared to a bolt handle with checkering. Can someone educate me on that?

Watch how Ron operates the bolt. Shown in slow motion at the 3:30 mark. He uses the palm of his hand to lift the bolt and pull it back, then rotates his hand it and pushes forward with his palm to return to battery and close the bolt. In a stressful situation, fine motor skills go away. Relying on your fingers to grasp the bolt is a fine motor function. Using the palm is much more simple and there is less of a chance of the bolt knob slipping from your grip. Having the bolt knob textured will make it grind into your palm instead of sliding like it should. I've seen many CRF DG rifles will have highly polished or chromed bolt knobs for this reason.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I learned from a very good rifleman, unfortunately long past. To keep the bolt shouldered and to use the palm when quickly working the bolt.

I will grab the bolt when slowly working it. But occasionally still practice like he showed me. For me it’s easier to run the bolt with a scope that way. I think people should shoot how ever it’s ingrained.

The only picture I have is a non scoped .416 Rigby CZ
Top target was for a group and the bottom working the bolt as fast as practical.

I’m lucky to be able to practice that way. Many official gun ranges won’t allow it.

 

[ay2626]

Watch how Ron operates the bolt. Shown in slow motion at the 3:30 mark. He uses the palm of his hand to lift the bolt and pull it back, then rotates his hand it and pushes forward with his palm to return to battery and close the bolt. In a stressful situation, fine motor skills go away. Relying on your fingers to grasp the bolt is a fine motor function. Using the palm is much more simple and there is less of a chance of the bolt knob slipping from your grip. Having the bolt knob textured will make it grind into your palm instead of sliding like it should. I've seen many CRF DG rifles will have highly polished or chromed bolt knobs for this reason.

Thanks! I have a Rigby big game and most of the rifle is nitride finish except for some accent parts and the bolt handle which is blued and very highly polished which makes sense based on this.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I learned "palm up" because of the ejection port cover on the M60 machine gun. That's a mistake you only want to make once!

Once that motor skill is etched in your brain, it becomes second nature. Curiously, people complain about the "butter knife" handle on the Mannlichers. I prefer it! Hand slips off the trigger, palm along the stock, between the stock and the bolt. Upward motion lifts the bolt. Rotate the wrist 90 degrees, and you are palm up. Slightly curl your fingers if you must, but then pull straight back. Do not short stroke. Heel of your palm gets the bolt back, a quick 90 degree rotate slaps it back down.

I'm not sure if that takes more "force" with any other rifle. But with the Mannlicher, it just works. And that "butter knife"? So much easier to slip into a scabbard.

 

[cajunchefray]

Typical reply from you who is actually clueless although you profess to be a gunsmith....

All of the reputable dg rifle manufactures who have been building dg game rifles since before you where born have built them with straight bolts bent down not backwards and down....very simple...

When reloading with the rifle in shoulder your hand is further forward...

Mannlicher schoenauer in your opinion must then be a true piece if shit as the bolt handle is well ahead of the trigger.....

"Looks sexy" just enforces how clueless you are when it comes to using big bore DG game rifles on magnum length actions in big bores under charge situations.....

The bolt needs to be operated with authority, backwards as well as forwards.....this can simple not be done when holding the bolt knob with clenched fingers......talk about slipping out the hand... when reloading with theopen palm technique it simply cannot slip out of anything. Simole reliable and used by DG professionals all over the world....

I guess you also prefer checkering on the bolt for better "grip".....

But of course you can employ whatever technique you want and build your rifles the way you want.....

I learned this technique of an open palm bolt working from an article, I think in Gun Digest, years ago. The article specifically mentioned that this was a technique from Mauser pre WW1.
The article showed pictures, using a Gewehr 98 with the bolt that is straight out, at 90 degrees to the barrel.
I had a 1912 Steyr 98 in the safe and tried it. Works great and easy to master, and fast.

I use it on the same rifle, no customized with a bent down PT&G bolt handle. It's fast and easy (at least for me).

But, @IvW says this is the technique, I believe a man that puts his life on the line to earn a living, I'm listening.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Open palm cycling, only.
Although I hold CZ 550 in high regard, I very much dislike the hole in the bolt knob for me and my bolt cycling I find that it creates a hot spot on my palm.
I always fill the bolt knob with a brass rod.

 

[cajunchefray]

I‘d look for a like-new Dakota in a standard caliber. Not one of the Dakota proprietary rounds. They’re a bargain compared to the Parkwest guns. Kimber and Montana are fine rifles, but not in the same league as Dakota IMO.

Gulf Breeze Firearms has a Dakota 76 African in .416 Rigby for $10K.

Agreed, Duke is a good guy and knows firearms.

Gulf Breeze Firearms has a .416 Rigby Dakota 76 African for $10K, Plus some other nice rifles. Their website doesn't work well for me but check out their listing on Guns America site.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Gulf Breeze Firearms has a Dakota 76 African in .416 Rigby for $10K.

Gulf Breeze Firearms has a .416 Rigby Dakota 76 African for $10K, Plus some other nice rifles. Their website doesn't work well for me but check out their listing on Guns America site.

Any idea how I'd get a rifle listed in the states into Canada? Pretty sure I can't buy direct, would likely have to work through a local firearms store.