Hornady ELD-X

[bruce moulds]

any game wounded is unacceptable.
cosistently (100%) hitting a 10" plate is a good guide to your ability at whatever range for most hunting.
sometimes smaller is better.
if you can't do that at 50 yds, you should probably be practising rather than hunting.
bruce.

 

[revturbo9967]

any game wounded is unacceptable.
bruce.

Yes sir. Absolutely right.

 

[WAB]

You are correct on both accounts. That’s why I believe good longer range hunters are doing a whole lot more then just stitting on a bipod pulling triggers.
speed goats are tough to get close to for sure, good thing I’m going with the bow this year, need to make thing interesting

Good luck on the goat. When I lived in the Red Desert a number of my friends went after them with a bow. Typically done out of a blind over a water hole, so may not be as bad as u think. My buddy called me one night all excited because a monster was coming in. I told him to hang up and call me back when it was down. Turned out to be top 10 P&Y!

 

[revturbo9967]

Good luck on the goat. When I lived in the Red Desert a number of my friends went after them with a bow. Typically done out of a blind over a water hole, so may not be as bad as u think. My buddy called me one night all excited because a monster was coming in. I told him to hang up and call me back when it was down. Turned out to be top 10 P&Y!

Thanks and Great story. I’ll be hunting over water 4 days and one day doing spot and stalk. I have never been to Africa and can’t wait for my hunt there, but Wyoming is by far my favorite hunting destination. That may change once I hunt in Zim though
I’ll be happy to even make P&Y on any level on the goats

 

[Chago]

bob,
funny you should raise that subject.
during many years of fclass shooting, i have pulled a fair few targets, many for some of the best shooters in aust.
the very best 10 kg (22lb) rifles find it hard to hold 0.5 moa vert for all shots.
this is magnified by bending light and changing wind conditions to sometimes the same rifles just holding 1 moa on the day.
at 800 yds, that is 8" vertical.
take into account the scope power, wind flags every 100, bench rest padestals, having sighters, and even a heavy hunting rifle in the field under field conditions cannot consistently compete with that.
now we come to the real part, the wind.
few people can read the wind to 2 moa = 16".
this is bigger than required to guarantee a chest shot on many species.
and virtually unachievable in the real world with any consistency.
and again that is with windflags every 100.
the flags often show differing speed and direction down the range.
next thing is the ability to deliver a killing blow at the range, allowing enough excess for a less than optimum shot.
this = recoil in hunting type rifles = bigger groups again.
and then you get boneheads that do not take terminal performance of projectiles into account, increasing the chance of wounding even more.
we have become physically and mentally lazy as a species.
gone is the desire to be a good hunter, with so called long range hunting allowing people to believe they can have their cake and eat it too.
whatever you say about old nick harvey, he came from the era when you learned to stalk as part of hunting, and when you got there you shot straight, often offhand.
this ethic seems to have almost been lost.
bruce.

Bruce this is not a fair example. I appreciate you don't like long range hunting. And that's your bag I have nothing against that. I personally don't "long range hunt". But I have shot animals at nearly a km. I was just out hunting. Period. If the opportunity presents itself and I know trying to get closer is going to lose me the animal. I will take the shot. I've said in many threads. It's up to the hunter to make a ethical decision. I have taken and made as mentioned shots at nearly 1km. But have passed on shots that were less than 100m due to poor shot circumstances. For those who have devoted there life to training how to shoot long distances. And knowingly can make accurate shots. Should and can. And I will.

And yes part of what you are saying is true. But that goes back to the ethics part. If your dealing with gusting winds. That means you can likely get closer as the gusting winds in the right direction will actually give you sound cover etc. Allowing you to get closer. But on top of that make the shot far more difficult which again would be unethical to take a shot you can't make.

I cant count how many times a old guy at the range asks me to sight in there rifle for them for various reasons. These guys shoot maybe a half box of ammo a year the week before hunting season. Then go hunting. I would bet this is a much higher percentage then hunters who train all year. And as far as I'm concerned these guys are far less ethical at 50m then I am at 500m. I don't care if he's good enough to sneak up and stick his finger up the animals ass. Again this conversation just keeps going back to the hunter making a ethical and confident decision.

 

[Chago]

Sure is. But we can say the exact same thing for hunters at close distances. Again, I’d be willing to bet there are far more inhuman bad shots taken by hunters up close , then at distance. Those numbers are obviously inflated a bit due to the longer range hunters being in fewer numbers.

More game has been wounded and lost under 200 yards, which is more upsetting to me personally.

99% of the "hornady bullets are crap and I shot my elk and we never found it" stories. Are truly a brown it's down kinda hunter. Sees a animal running in the woods and starts flinging lead. That guy is to judge me shooting at 800m when there tax dollars were spent training me to hit much smaller targets and much longer distances..... While they swing there rifle across the woods chasing a running animal like a duck hunter with open chokes.

 

[Chago]

any game wounded is unacceptable.
cosistently (100%) hitting a 10" plate is a good guide to your ability at whatever range for most hunting.
sometimes smaller is better.
if you can't do that at 50 yds, you should probably be practising rather than hunting.
bruce.

This I agree with.

 

[bruce moulds]

chago,
i meant to be more than fair and understate the issues.
with goof b.c bullets at good speeds, you will get about 12" wind deflection at 1000 yds per mile per hour of full value wind. this is 24" for 2 mph.
you might detect a windspeed at the shooting point with a machine at the firing point, but it is rarely the same, especially when light.
it will constantly vary more than 1mph.
add to this it will vary throughout the bullet's flight.
trying to hit a 10" circle at 1000 yds from a field position with a hunting rifle is a lottery at best.
if the mirage is boiling even a little you can go as much as 2 moa high for the same sight setting.
and we have not even mentioned using underpowered cartridges for this like 308 win or 6.5 manbun.
i remember reading an article a long time ago called "the quarter mile shot".
in those days we all went ooo and aaa at such a long shot.
this is a long shot with field rest etc, but wind deflection with high speed higher b.c. bullets is doable with experience.
i have personally taken game at 400 to 440 yds with the 7mmstw, but will not chase such shots, preferring to avoid them.
the rifle has is zeroed at 300 yds, and has a point blank of 350, a range i consider absolute max normally.
out to there in not bad conditions i can aim dead on for elevation, and still on fur for the wind.
and the gun delivers the power at the receiving end for the game shot with the right bullet.
the truth about military snipers is not what we dream.
they are taught to get as close as possible, even 200 yds or 400 yds.
the really long shots we read about in the media usually involve many sighters, chasing shots until one hits.
and wounding an enemy beats killing him because he then becomes a drain on their economy.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

here is a challenge.
can anyone here shoot 20 shots in one day into a 10" circle at whatever range you nominate.
then repeat that 5 more days, not necessarily consecutive.
not consecutive because the challenge allows for shooting in mild conditions.
for every shot out of the circle you will take a bullet in the hip, leg, or guts, same calibre and energy of the ammo you are shooting the target with.
honest answers not based on the marketing machine, but real experience would be interesting.
oh, by the way, no sighters.
bruce.

 

[WAB]

here is a challenge.
can anyone here shoot 20 shots in one day into a 10" circle at whatever range you nominate.
then repeat that 5 more days, not necessarily consecutive.
not consecutive because the challenge allows for shooting in mild conditions.
for every shot out of the circle you will take a bullet in the hip, leg, or guts, same calibre and energy of the ammo you are shooting the target with.
honest answers not based on the marketing machine, but real experience would be interesting.
oh, by the way, no sighters.
bruce.

I do this on 8” plates almost daily. Shooting standing off sticks, An 8” plate at 300 requires serious concentration. Currently I am forced to shoot left handed due to surgery on my right wrist. I am finding the 100 yard plate as difficult as the 300 is typically. Oh, and typing left handed sucks!

 

[revturbo9967]

here is a challenge.
can anyone here shoot 20 shots in one day into a 10" circle at whatever range you nominate.
then repeat that 5 more days, not necessarily consecutive.
not consecutive because the challenge allows for shooting in mild conditions.
for every shot out of the circle you will take a bullet in the hip, leg, or guts, same calibre and energy of the ammo you are shooting the target with.
honest answers not based on the marketing machine, but real experience would be interesting.
oh, by the way, no sighters.
bruce.

Here’s first my entry. All with the bow . Last target with 4 shots was at 30 yards

 

[revturbo9967]

I do this on 8” plates almost daily. Shooting standing off sticks, An 8” plate at 300 requires serious concentration. Currently I am forced to shoot left handed due to surgery on my right wrist. I am finding the 100 yard plate as difficult as the 300 is typically. Oh, and typing left handed sucks!

Everything off sticks is tough in my opinion. I never have been able to get used to them even with a decent amount of repetition. I’ve been shooting at 50 yards with my .22 off sticks lately just to save ammo. I can hit what I’m shooting at with them, but they just don’t feel natural to me like some hunters are with them. Maybe one day I’ll learn to like them ha

 

[mdwest]

any game wounded is unacceptable.
cosistently (100%) hitting a 10" plate is a good guide to your ability at whatever range for most hunting.
sometimes smaller is better.
if you can't do that at 50 yds, you should probably be practising rather than hunting.
bruce.

I actually hold myself to a much higher standard...

It doesnt matter what firearms I am shooting or what distance I am shooting at.. whether its a pistol, a bolt action rifle, a revolver, a semi-auto rifle, etc.. whether its 7 yards to 400 yards... (I dont shoot anything past about 300 yards these days.. I dont have access to range that allows me to train/practice at distances greater than that).. doesnt matter if Im shooting from the prone, standing, or kneeling.. if Im shooting supported or unsupported.. using sticks, a bi-pod, or a backpack as a rest..

a "fist" sized group is the minimum standard (roughly 4" square)...

If the group is larger than a fist can cover.. I need to either slow down, pay better attention to the fundamentals, get closer, change ammo, or sell the firearm... whatever it takes to solve the problem..

If the group is significantly smaller than a fist can cover.. I need to consider how to get shots off faster and look at how I can speed up the time between target identification and the trigger pull..

That standard works whether shooting for speed, or precision (although we arent talking "sniper" type precision.. but a 4" group at 25 yards with a pistol or a 4" group with most rifles at 300 yards is pretty "precise").. and applies for combat shooting, self defense shooting, or for hunting (if you can keep it inside 4" and hit what youre aiming at, youre pretty well set for putting down the quarry quickly... if you cant keep it in 4" quickly enough.. you need to practice more and/or change something that isnt working)..

Was taught to do this by someone I very much respected and that was one of the best shooters Ive ever known back in the early 90's when I was still in the military.. It has served me well for 30 years at this point..

 

[Chago]

chago,
i meant to be more than fair and understate the issues.
with goof b.c bullets at good speeds, you will get about 12" wind deflection at 1000 yds per mile per hour of full value wind. this is 24" for 2 mph.
you might detect a windspeed at the shooting point with a machine at the firing point, but it is rarely the same, especially when light.
it will constantly vary more than 1mph.
add to this it will vary throughout the bullet's flight.
trying to hit a 10" circle at 1000 yds from a field position with a hunting rifle is a lottery at best.
if the mirage is boiling even a little you can go as much as 2 moa high for the same sight setting.
and we have not even mentioned using underpowered cartridges for this like 308 win or 6.5 manbun.
i remember reading an article a long time ago called "the quarter mile shot".
in those days we all went ooo and aaa at such a long shot.
this is a long shot with field rest etc, but wind deflection with high speed higher b.c. bullets is doable with experience.
i have personally taken game at 400 to 440 yds with the 7mmstw, but will not chase such shots, preferring to avoid them.
the rifle has is zeroed at 300 yds, and has a point blank of 350, a range i consider absolute max normally.
out to there in not bad conditions i can aim dead on for elevation, and still on fur for the wind.
and the gun delivers the power at the receiving end for the game shot with the right bullet.
the truth about military snipers is not what we dream.
they are taught to get as close as possible, even 200 yds or 400 yds.
the really long shots we read about in the media usually involve many sighters, chasing shots until one hits.
and wounding an enemy beats killing him because he then becomes a drain on their economy.
bruce.

Bruce.... come on man... don't go all CNN on me. You are laying information out there like its fact to convince the masses. When you know what you are saying is completely inaccurate. Sorry I don't mean to come off as a dick head. But you create a massive write up like you know what you are talking about and as if its all verified data and its not even close.

First off what caliber are you shooting and what bullet and velocity are you loading that you are getting 24" per mph on 90 degree wind? I use metric (MRAD) so I will try to convert it the best I can. But my 300win mag with 212 ELD X is moving 80cm on 10kmh wind. So that works out to roughly 31" on 6.5mph 90 degree angle wind. This is at 1000m so roughly 1100 yards. So 100 yards farther then your data, and less then 5" per mph. So if you are shooting partitions at that range then that would explain your horrific BC and wind movement. Hence why I argue to use ELD X. Yes being able to read wind is a art that takes a ton of practice. I didn't say shooting animals at a km was for everyone.

Hitting a 10" steel is lottery? Are you serious? 10" steel is 1MOA. I attend shooting matches regularly where the top 50 guys who are majority civilian shooters hit this. The top 10 are shooting 1/2" MOA groups all day so 5". And this is just in my area. I know tons of PRS shooters in the US who would dominate the crowd I shoot with. Saying 10" steel at 1000 is lottery tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. To be honest, the guys I know would sell a rifle if it didn't shoot 5-8" groups at 1000.

When you say field position what does that mean? Are you under the understanding that guys shoot 1000 yard animals on sticks or something? or free hand? Of course not. These are prone shots. Again back to the ethics conversation. Anyone who is capable of these shots doesn't take them unless they have a good prone position.

Quarter mile is 400m. Again I don't know where you live or how long ago you are talking about. But for the last 20 years, technology on barrel, powder and bullets have made 400m nothing fancy at all. Carlos Hathcock was a US Marine who was hitting target in Vietnam at over 2500m. With a Winchester Model 70, wood stock, military ammo and a scope that looks like Galileo telescope. Vietnam.... long time ago.

Military snipers are not at all what you stated above. Again don't step into waters you clearly know zero about. If snipers goals were to get as close as possible we wouldn't be removing 308 and 30-06 and replacing them with 300win mags, 338 Lapuas, 50BMG etc. Yes snipers in urban settings will make shots at 200m or less. But that's because the mission called for it. But missions also call for shots at over 2000m. In Afghanistan most shooting was happening at extreme ranges in the mountains. You realize not all missions are like Tom Berengers in all the sniper movies, where you are always trying to kill the president or general of every bad country in the world. No the reality is most snipers are sitting in one position for hours/days/weeks providing over watch for there fellow brothers. Making shots at whatever range is necessary to keep there boys safe. Maybe 0.1% of snipers are actually out hunting one specific target and would perhaps try to get closer like you said. The other 99.9% are doing what I mentioned above. And yes in Iraq where there was a lot of defending towns, villages, cities etc. You had more urban warfare where shots from windows etc was more common.

Again I will say. I appreciate you don't like long range hunting. That is up to you, I have no disrespect for anyone who doesn't want to make long shots. As a matter of fact I respect you more for being honest about your range and staying within it. But at the same time, don't hate on someone who is capable and can. Doesn't make them less of a hunter then you.

 

[bruce moulds]

chago,
i am not putting hate on guys, but rather describing what i have seen on paper targets.
this is from 300 0ut to 1200 yds.
i used a 30 cal 200 gn bullet with a g1 b.c of 0.65. and a mv of 3000 fps.
only really specialized guys will better that.
i don't think hascock shot too much at 2,500 with either a m70 30/06 or a rem 308.
the 30/06 match ammo had ballistics not much different than a 30/30.
all the prs style shooting i have watched involved a lot more banging than clanging, and most of them are now using things like 6br - totally unsuited to long range hunting.
i stand by what i say about the lottery.
past about 600 constantly changing wind direction and speed, combined with bending light making the target appear above or below where it is make 1st shot quality hits unguaranteed, and the further out you go the worse it becomes.
if you can do it good on you, but most can't.
bruce.

 

[revturbo9967]

chago,
i am not putting hate on guys, but rather describing what i have seen on paper targets.
this is from 300 0ut to 1200 yds.
i used a 30 cal 200 gn bullet with a g1 b.c of 0.65. and a mv of 3000 fps.
only really specialized guys will better that.
i don't think hascock shot too much at 2,500 with either a m70 30/06 or a rem 308.
the 30/06 match ammo had ballistics not much different than a 30/30.
all the prs style shooting i have watched involved a lot more banging than clanging, and most of them are now using things like 6br - totally unsuited to long range hunting.
i stand by what i say about the lottery.
past about 600 constantly changing wind direction and speed, combined with bending light making the target appear above or below where it is make 1st shot quality hits unguaranteed, and the further out you go the worse it becomes.
if you can do it good on you, but most can't.
bruce.

Burce, what chago is saying is that most PRS guys can do it, and I agree. A lot of those guys are not hunters, but the ones that do , do not use their match gun for hunting , they use a hunting caliber. This is partly why nosler came out with their own line of cartridges. The hunting world was asking for a longer range caliber and they delivered.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

chago,

the 30/06 match ammo had ballistics not much different than a 30/30.

@bruce moulds : I can't quite wrap my arms around your comment on a 30-06 and 30-30. Ballistically, two very different cartridges with the only thing in common being 30 cal.

 

[WAB]

I was packing a bear out to our boat in AK a number of years ago. Coming down a creek we came on a .50 cal sitting up on a bipod in the creek bottom. There was an ammo pack beside it and no one in sight. We started looking around and realized we had a good view of an avalanche chute on the adjacent mountain. I started glassing the chute and spotted two guys cleaning a black bear at about 1500 yards. I have a number of problems with this scenario:
1) this chute was eminently huntable. There was no reason to take this shot. Anyone can spot a bear at that range in that area. You are not hunting them, you are merely spotting them.
2) they were lucky to find that bear. Any of you who have hunted that country know what I mean.
3) they were unarmed as best I could tell. Their bloody rifle was too heavy to cart up the mountain so there they were, up to their elbows in blood in grizzly country.

As I stated earlier, there are hunting scenarios that require longer shots. However, this recent craze is causing irresponsible and ridiculous scenarios like the one I witnessed.

 

[revturbo9967]

I was packing a bear out to our boat in AK a number of years ago. Coming down a creek we came on a .50 cal sitting up on a bipod in the creek bottom. There was an ammo pack beside it and no one in sight. We started looking around and realized we had a good view of an avalanche chute on the adjacent mountain. I started glassing the chute and spotted two guys cleaning a black bear at about 1500 yards. I have a number of problems with this scenario:
1) this chute was eminently huntable. There was no reason to take this shot. Anyone can spot a bear at that range in that area. You are not hunting them, you are merely spotting them.
2) they were lucky to find that bear. Any of you who have hunted that country know what I mean.
3) they were unarmed as best I could tell. Their bloody rifle was too heavy to cart up the mountain so there they were, up to their elbows in blood in grizzly country.

As I stated earlier, there are hunting scenarios that require longer shots. However, this recent craze is causing irresponsible and ridiculous scenarios like the one I witnessed.

Leaving your firearm anywhere other then on you in grizzly country is beyond reckless. They are lucky an ethical hunter came along and left the rifle rather then taking it.

 

[shark_za]

Ethics of long shots on game aside, the ELD-X is no more than a cup and core bullet with a small interlock band. These types of bullets have been known to fail and people should really look at terminal ballistics a bit better.
The fact it expands rapidly is what tends to cause erratic and inconsistent performance on game. Being tailored for slower impact 400m plus shots is not a good thing in my book.
It may work and bag your trophy, till it doesn't.