Hornady ELD-X

[YancyW]

here is a challenge.
can anyone here shoot 20 shots in one day into a 10" circle at whatever range you nominate.
then repeat that 5 more days, not necessarily consecutive.
not consecutive because the challenge allows for shooting in mild conditions.
for every shot out of the circle you will take a bullet in the hip, leg, or guts, same calibre and energy of the ammo you are shooting the target with.
honest answers not based on the marketing machine, but real experience would be interesting.
oh, by the way, no sighters.
bruce.

Yes, I have many rifles I could do that with at a much smaller area than 10".

 

[YancyW]

Bruce.... come on man... don't go all CNN on me. You are laying information out there like its fact to convince the masses. When you know what you are saying is completely inaccurate. Sorry I don't mean to come off as a dick head. But you create a massive write up like you know what you are talking about and as if its all verified data and its not even close.

First off what caliber are you shooting and what bullet and velocity are you loading that you are getting 24" per mph on 90 degree wind? I use metric (MRAD) so I will try to convert it the best I can. But my 300win mag with 212 ELD X is moving 80cm on 10kmh wind. So that works out to roughly 31" on 6.5mph 90 degree angle wind. This is at 1000m so roughly 1100 yards. So 100 yards farther then your data, and less then 5" per mph. So if you are shooting partitions at that range then that would explain your horrific BC and wind movement. Hence why I argue to use ELD X. Yes being able to read wind is a art that takes a ton of practice. I didn't say shooting animals at a km was for everyone.

Hitting a 10" steel is lottery? Are you serious? 10" steel is 1MOA. I attend shooting matches regularly where the top 50 guys who are majority civilian shooters hit this. The top 10 are shooting 1/2" MOA groups all day so 5". And this is just in my area. I know tons of PRS shooters in the US who would dominate the crowd I shoot with. Saying 10" steel at 1000 is lottery tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. To be honest, the guys I know would sell a rifle if it didn't shoot 5-8" groups at 1000.

When you say field position what does that mean? Are you under the understanding that guys shoot 1000 yard animals on sticks or something? or free hand? Of course not. These are prone shots. Again back to the ethics conversation. Anyone who is capable of these shots doesn't take them unless they have a good prone position.

Quarter mile is 400m. Again I don't know where you live or how long ago you are talking about. But for the last 20 years, technology on barrel, powder and bullets have made 400m nothing fancy at all. Carlos Hathcock was a US Marine who was hitting target in Vietnam at over 2500m. With a Winchester Model 70, wood stock, military ammo and a scope that looks like Galileo telescope. Vietnam.... long time ago.

Military snipers are not at all what you stated above. Again don't step into waters you clearly know zero about. If snipers goals were to get as close as possible we wouldn't be removing 308 and 30-06 and replacing them with 300win mags, 338 Lapuas, 50BMG etc. Yes snipers in urban settings will make shots at 200m or less. But that's because the mission called for it. But missions also call for shots at over 2000m. In Afghanistan most shooting was happening at extreme ranges in the mountains. You realize not all missions are like Tom Berengers in all the sniper movies, where you are always trying to kill the president or general of every bad country in the world. No the reality is most snipers are sitting in one position for hours/days/weeks providing over watch for there fellow brothers. Making shots at whatever range is necessary to keep there boys safe. Maybe 0.1% of snipers are actually out hunting one specific target and would perhaps try to get closer like you said. The other 99.9% are doing what I mentioned above. And yes in Iraq where there was a lot of defending towns, villages, cities etc. You had more urban warfare where shots from windows etc was more common.

Again I will say. I appreciate you don't like long range hunting. That is up to you, I have no disrespect for anyone who doesn't want to make long shots. As a matter of fact I respect you more for being honest about your range and staying within it. But at the same time, don't hate on someone who is capable and can. Doesn't make them less of a hunter then you.

Very well said.

With good equipment and any amount of consistent practice, 400m is a chip shot.

 

[gbflyer]

Hats off to the LR guys. Most must be stone cold killers. I get way too excited to shoot a critter that far. Usually miss at 100 without time for careful aim.

 

[bruce moulds]

@bruce moulds : I can't quite wrap my arms around your comment on a 30-06 and 30-30. Ballistically, two very different cartridges with the only thing in common being 30 cal.

View attachment 405213

yes they are different cartridges, and std loads cannot be compared.
but hathcock was using national match ammo which was loaded to velocities not much higher than 30/30.
bruce.

 

[Chago]

chago,
i am not putting hate on guys, but rather describing what i have seen on paper targets.
this is from 300 0ut to 1200 yds.
i used a 30 cal 200 gn bullet with a g1 b.c of 0.65. and a mv of 3000 fps.
only really specialized guys will better that.
i don't think hascock shot too much at 2,500 with either a m70 30/06 or a rem 308.
the 30/06 match ammo had ballistics not much different than a 30/30.
all the prs style shooting i have watched involved a lot more banging than clanging, and most of them are now using things like 6br - totally unsuited to long range hunting.
i stand by what i say about the lottery.
past about 600 constantly changing wind direction and speed, combined with bending light making the target appear above or below where it is make 1st shot quality hits unguaranteed, and the further out you go the worse it becomes.
if you can do it good on you, but most can't.
bruce.

I literally started answering your points one by one again. And then just deleted it all as I realized this is not worth it. You are questioning confirmed kills by Carlos Hathcock. You are saying the PRS you watch guys don't hit steal. You sent fictitious load results which I know are fictitious because even my 11 year old daughter knows how to use a ballistic calculator and even she knows those numbers don't line up with 24" per mph wind adjustment. Essentially... You are a 24 handicap golfer. And you are sitting here with your arms crossed saying "No! No one can be a scratch golfer that's BS. No it's impossible. It's lottery to be able to shoot a under par round."

Yet literally thousands of people are doing it everyday. But because you are not capable of doing it. That means it's impossible....

Have a nice night Bruce. But just know when you go to bed tonight. There are thousands of guys who can do what you call impossible, all day long.

 

[Inline6]

I literally started answering your points one by one again. And then just deleted it all as I realized this is not worth it. You are questioning confirmed kills by Carlos Hathcock. You are saying the PRS you watch guys don't hit steal. You sent fictitious load results which I know are fictitious because even my 11 year old daughter knows how to use a ballistic calculator and even she knows those numbers don't line up with 24" per mph wind adjustment. Essentially... You are a 24 handicap golfer. And you are sitting here with your arms crossed saying "No! No one can be a scratch golfer that's BS. No it's impossible. It's lottery to be able to shoot a under par round."

Yet literally thousands of people are doing it everyday. But because you are not capable of doing it. That means it's impossible....

Have a nice night Bruce. But just know when you go to bed tonight. There are thousands of guys who can do what you call impossible, all day long.

I don't know you. Sounds like you have served our country and for that I thank you. Given the shooting background I understand the mind set. I too would not have a problem taking a shot at 1300 yards but I also would pass on a shot at 500 if the conditions are not right. That is what is being brought to light here knowing ones limitations.

I too have shot many prs matches, as a matter of fact I shot it in the very first year. I don't know what the head count is now but a couple years ago it was not over 2k. In all the matches I have shot and I have been shooting them before the PRS was a thing. I have never seen anyone clean a match. Some have come close but never a clean match, so shooting par I would say has not been achieved in a match setting to my knowledge. So to say thousands are doing it every day might be a stretch. Do people hit a lot of targets yes, most are over 1 MOA closer to 2MOA. The par times are less and the targets are getting bigger. The game has gone away from field match that they once were. That's Shannon's choice.

As far as Carlos Hathcock goes again a man I respect and am thankful for his service. His 2500 yard shot was done with a 50BMG and I would say luck was on his side.

I personally have read enough about what Bruce has written in this forum to know he has a wealth of knowledge. What he is saying in this regard is putting things in perspective, knowing ones limits. I don't know Bruce personally but he has my respect. I don't know how many rounds down range he as sent but I'm willing to bet you it a number higher than you think. I know he has taken more animals than I ever will. With that said no matter the animal you can tell he gives it respect. That says a lot about his character in my mind.

 

[Chago]

I don't know you. Sounds like you have served our country and for that I thank you. Given the shooting background I understand the mind set. I too would not have a problem taking a shot at 1300 yards but I also would pass on a shot at 500 if the conditions are not right. That is what is being brought to light here knowing ones limitations.

I too have shot many prs matches, as a matter of fact I shot it in the very first year. I don't know what the head count is now but a couple years ago it was not over 2k. In all the matches I have shot and I have been shooting them before the PRS was a thing. I have never seen anyone clean a match. Some have come close but never a clean match, so shooting par I would say has not been achieved in a match setting to my knowledge. So to say thousands are doing it every day might be a stretch. Do people hit a lot of targets yes, most are over 1 MOA closer to 2MOA. The par times are less and the targets are getting bigger. The game has gone away from field match that they once were. That's Shannon's choice.

As far as Carlos Hathcock goes again a man I respect and am thankful for his service. His 2500 yard shot was done with a 50BMG and I would say luck was on his side.

I personally have read enough about what Bruce has written in this forum to know he has a wealth of knowledge. What he is saying in this regard is putting things in perspective, knowing ones limits. I don't know Bruce personally but he has my respect. I don't know how many rounds down range he as sent but I'm willing to bet you it a number higher than you think. I know he has taken more animals than I ever will. With that said no matter the animal you can tell he gives it respect. That says a lot about his character in my mind.

Inline are you referring to a clean match from PRS which includes rapid fire, awkward positions, moving targets, running between positions then shooting etc. That is incredibly harder then just hitting shots on a 10" plate. F class for example would be a closer example to hunting. Now I know the equipment is crazy different, similarities would be you can sit and wait on wind to do what you need, find comfortable prone position etc. Which is far more likely in a hunting scenario. Listen I've said over and over. I don't think "long range hunting" should even exist. I don't long range hunt. I just hunt. And if I need to take a long shot that I'm confident in the situation I will. That's all. Period period period. And if max range shot for someone is 200m and another is 800m so be it. I said like 20 posts ago. This all comes down to ethical shooting. If the hunter is capable and not just dreaming because he saw it on tv. Then do not judge the hunter. This all started with someone bringing up animal sniping because folks like the eld X.

 

[Inline6]

Inline are you referring to a clean match from PRS which includes rapid fire, awkward positions, moving targets, running between positions then shooting etc. That is incredibly harder then just hitting shots on a 10" plate. F class for example would be a closer example to hunting. Now I know the equipment is crazy different, similarities would be you can sit and wait on wind to do what you need, find comfortable prone position etc. Which is far more likely in a hunting scenario. Listen I've said over and over. I don't think "long range hunting" should even exist. I don't long range hunt. I just hunt. And if I need to take a long shot that I'm confident in the situation I will. That's all. Period period period. And if max range shot for someone is 200m and another is 800m so be it. I said like 20 posts ago. This all comes down to ethical shooting. If the hunter is capable and not just dreaming because he saw it on tv. Then do not judge the hunter. This all started with someone bringing up animal sniping because folks like the eld X.

Yes I was referring to a full PRS match. I say it to bring up the point that you brought up thousands can do it. Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, the way in which you laid it out. One might think someone could shoot par and thousands are doing it. I have never played a game of golf in my life so I might be wrong in my thinking. If a golf course is 78 par it's 78 strokes to finish par, (that's how I understand it). In a PRS match if you have 15 stages 10 targets each I would say par is 150. That's the way I took your post.

We have very similar views on hunting. Heck I get to guide every now in then. Guess what always comes with 2 RRS tripod one for the client and one for myself. Some of the equipment does become useful in hunting situations.

You having shot matches, have you ever been squared with new shooters? Are you able to see the difference between someone with 2 matches under their belt vs someone who has 20?

I have shot a mile cold bore and connected first round. I have also missed targets at 380, hell I shot a match that was a test your limit stage. I missed the first target! The biggest of the bunch and cleaned the rest. Lol I was the only person to get a 19.5 out of 20 points.

Look Bruce might be a little old school but truly analyze what he is says. Take a 10" target, shoot it 5 times making 5 hits on 5 different days. I think that is a reasonable goal to set ones limits. We are talking about a wide range of people. I am sure some might not be able to surpass 200 yards with that given criteria. Bruce stated that was based on what he seen pulling targets at f class matches. I remember pulling targets being board to death until you have that one guy shooting the pin out of the sighters. I was younger then and did not take advantage of that type of analysis, short sighted on my part.

Ego aside a lot of people we know can shoot and shoot well. That is a very small percentage of the shooting population. I personally don't know what my limit would be to say I can go 5 for 5 on 5 different days and not drop 1 shot on a 10" plate. Again we agree on ethical shots, I believe Bruce was laying boundaries. If one cannot perform that at a given distance, ethically one probably should not take that shot.

That is my take on what was said. Not everyone is capable of shooting 1moa even if their equipment can.

I guess the only other thing I can add, I did shoot a red stag quartering towards me 60 yards with a ELD Match 285 (338LM) went through the front shoulder and stopped under the skin at the hind quarter on the opposite side. It went through about 5 feet of tissue.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yes I was referring to a full PRS match. I say it to bring up the point that you brought up thousands can do it. Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, the way in which you laid it out. One might think someone could shoot par and thousands are doing it. I have never played a game of golf in my life so I might be wrong in my thinking. If a golf course is 78 par it's 78 strokes to finish par, (that's how I understand it). In a PRS match if you have 15 stages 10 targets each I would say par is 150. That's the way I took your post.

We have very similar views on hunting. Heck I get to guide every now in then. Guess what always comes with 2 RRS tripod one for the client and one for myself. Some of the equipment does become useful in hunting situations.

You having shot matches, have you ever been squared with new shooters? Are you able to see the difference between someone with 2 matches under their belt vs someone who has 20?

I have shot a mile cold bore and connected first round. I have also missed targets at 380, hell I shot a match that was a test your limit stage. I missed the first target! The biggest of the bunch and cleaned the rest. Lol I was the only person to get a 19.5 out of 20 points.

Look Bruce might be a little old school but truly analyze what he is says. Take a 10" target, shoot it 5 times making 5 hits on 5 different days. I think that is a reasonable goal to set ones limits. We are talking about a wide range of people. I am sure some might not be able to surpass 200 yards with that given criteria. Bruce stated that was based on what he seen pulling targets at f class matches. I remember pulling targets being board to death until you have that one guy shooting the pin out of the sighters. I was younger then and did not take advantage of that type of analysis, short sighted on my part.

Ego aside a lot of people we know can shoot and shoot well. That is a very small percentage of the shooting population. I personally don't know what my limit would be to say I can go 5 for 5 on 5 different days and not drop 1 shot on a 10" plate. Again we agree on ethical shots, I believe Bruce was laying boundaries. If one cannot perform that at a given distance, ethically one probably should not take that shot.

That is my take on what was said. Not everyone is capable of shooting 1moa even if their equipment can.

I guess the only other thing I can add, I did shoot a red stag quartering towards me 60 yards with a ELD Match 285 (338LM) went through the front shoulder and stopped under the skin at the hind quarter on the opposite side. It went through about 5 feet of tissue.

@Inline6
As my dad used to say there is a lot of rifles around for long range shooting but there ain't to many people that can use them to thier fullest potential.
That's the polite version
Bob

 

[revturbo9967]

Yes I was referring to a full PRS match. I say it to bring up the point that you brought up thousands can do it. Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, the way in which you laid it out. One might think someone could shoot par and thousands are doing it. I have never played a game of golf in my life so I might be wrong in my thinking. If a golf course is 78 par it's 78 strokes to finish par, (that's how I understand it). In a PRS match if you have 15 stages 10 targets each I would say par is 150. That's the way I took your post.

We have very similar views on hunting. Heck I get to guide every now in then. Guess what always comes with 2 RRS tripod one for the client and one for myself. Some of the equipment does become useful in hunting situations.

You having shot matches, have you ever been squared with new shooters? Are you able to see the difference between someone with 2 matches under their belt vs someone who has 20?

I have shot a mile cold bore and connected first round. I have also missed targets at 380, hell I shot a match that was a test your limit stage. I missed the first target! The biggest of the bunch and cleaned the rest. Lol I was the only person to get a 19.5 out of 20 points.

Look Bruce might be a little old school but truly analyze what he is says. Take a 10" target, shoot it 5 times making 5 hits on 5 different days. I think that is a reasonable goal to set ones limits. We are talking about a wide range of people. I am sure some might not be able to surpass 200 yards with that given criteria. Bruce stated that was based on what he seen pulling targets at f class matches. I remember pulling targets being board to death until you have that one guy shooting the pin out of the sighters. I was younger then and did not take advantage of that type of analysis, short sighted on my part.

Ego aside a lot of people we know can shoot and shoot well. That is a very small percentage of the shooting population. I personally don't know what my limit would be to say I can go 5 for 5 on 5 different days and not drop 1 shot on a 10" plate. Again we agree on ethical shots, I believe Bruce was laying boundaries. If one cannot perform that at a given distance, ethically one probably should not take that shot.

That is my take on what was said. Not everyone is capable of shooting 1moa even if their equipment can.

I guess the only other thing I can add, I did shoot a red stag quartering towards me 60 yards with a ELD Match 285 (338LM) went through the front shoulder and stopped under the skin at the hind quarter on the opposite side. It went through about 5 feet of tissue.

talk about max velocity on that bullet. What did it look like when you found it ? Was there even half of the weight left at that point?

 

[YancyW]

chago,
i am not putting hate on guys, but rather describing what i have seen on paper targets.
this is from 300 0ut to 1200 yds.
i used a 30 cal 200 gn bullet with a g1 b.c of 0.65. and a mv of 3000 fps.
only really specialized guys will better that.
i don't think hascock shot too much at 2,500 with either a m70 30/06 or a rem 308.
the 30/06 match ammo had ballistics not much different than a 30/30.
all the prs style shooting i have watched involved a lot more banging than clanging, and most of them are now using things like 6br - totally unsuited to long range hunting.
i stand by what i say about the lottery.
past about 600 constantly changing wind direction and speed, combined with bending light making the target appear above or below where it is make 1st shot quality hits unguaranteed, and the further out you go the worse it becomes.
if you can do it good on you, but most can't.
bruce.

If you are using a 30 cal with a .650 BC at 3000, how in the world are you getting a foot per mile an hour wind? 12" per mile an hour is a cannon ball, not a bullet.

 

[Inline6]

talk about max velocity on that bullet. What did it look like when you found it ? Was there even half of the weight left at that point?

It was moving at 2915fps(MV), I thought I had a picture of it. I can't find it, to the best of my memory it was 70% weight retention.

 

[revturbo9967]

It was moving at 2915fps(MV), I thought I had a picture of it. I can't find it, to the best of my memory it was 70% weight retention.

Then that right there is good proof the bullet works for what it was designed for.

 

[bruce moulds]

If you are using a 30 cal with a .650 BC at 3000, how in the world are you getting a foot per mile an hour wind? 12" per mile an hour is a cannon ball, not a bullet.

the true number in the calculation is 11.8", which is close to 12" in the real world.
and that is 1000 yds, not a mile.
bruce.

 

[YancyW]

the true number in the calculation is 11.8", which is close to 12" in the real world.
and that is 1000 yds, not a mile.
bruce.

With a 10 mph 90 degree cross, I can't see how that should be more than 5-6 MOA at 1000.

I have to not be fully understanding what you are saying.

 

[bruce moulds]

6 moa at 1000 yds is 60" = 5 feet.
a clean miss and lucky for the animal.
i took my number from j b m ballistic calculations.
somewhere our calculations do not agree. possibly i have miscalculated.
your numbers would suggest 0.5 to 0.6 moa per 1 mph wind, which is about half what i suggested.
bruce.

 

[YancyW]

6 moa at 1000 yds is 60" = 5 feet.
a clean miss and lucky for the animal.
i took my number from j b m ballistic calculations.
somewhere our calculations do not agree. possibly i have miscalculated.
your numbers would suggest 0.5 to 0.6 moa per 1 mph wind, which is about half what i suggested.
bruce.

Yeah, I had to guess on the bullet weight, so that had some impact on the results.

 

[bruce moulds]

you are right.
i just did the calculation for 10 mph and it agrees with you.
either jbm has a problem, or there is something taken into account there.
spindrift is about 0.6 moa so possibly that was taken into account.
when time permits i will have to burrow into this.
bruce.

 

[YancyW]

you are right.
i just did the calculation for 10 mph and it agrees with you.
either jbm has a problem, or there is something taken into account there.
spindrift is about 0.6 moa so possibly that was taken into account.
when time permits i will have to burrow into this.
bruce.

That could be, although that would be wind direction dependent.

 

[bruce moulds]

yancy,
you are correct it is direction dependent.
here are some jbm calculations.
1mph from 90 degrees. 11.8" deflection = 1.1 moa.
270 degrees. 0.2" deflection = 0 moa.
10 mph from 90 degrees. 64" deflection = 6.1 moa.
270 degrees. 52" deflection = 5.0 moa.
i thought that spindrift was about 0.6 moa but it appears to be more, like about 1.1 moa.
this difference is significant and must be taken into account.
by the time you get out to the mile you will also need to take into account coriolus , how far the earth turned during time of flight, on top of spindrift combined with twist direction.
the above figures were for right hand twist and should be reversed for left hand twist.
also needing consideration is that for every 10 minutes of wind, the bullet will go about 1 minute high in a 90 degree wind, and 1 minute low in a 270 degree wind with a right hand twist.
with regards the original discussion, it might be that the 0.5 moa per mile per hr suggested elsewhere did not take spindrift into account.
bruce.