Hunting Cape Buffalo at Night

[enysse]

Funny thing, same thing happen to me last time in Africa to with an impala we had been chasing hard after for hours on end. I thought he was further than he was, held high and skimmed the back at 250 yards. Paid the trophy fee, my bad...we saw him later but I could not get a shot, he was super sneaky and there was way too much brush.

 

[ROCKET]

I was never comfortable with using the light because I had a feeling it would rush the shot. It did. Having never hunted at night, it took me a moment to adjust to seeing the buff through my scope with the light shining on him. I saw his eyes glowing as he was looked straight into the light. The first shot I took on him was what appeared a dead on frontal heart shot. I learned later that the shot went over his head!!

If this is correct she made the first shoot with the flashlight on the bull......I dont know for sure but is what I understand when I read that, so I still thinking the same I wrote before...... What kind of PH encourage to their clients to take a shoot over a 800 kilos Cape Buffalo pointed with a flashlight...........you tell me.........

After that and one day follow the PH apparently consider it was useless to look for because would be a just a scratch.....?????

I dont know the other side of the story but reading this.........she allready paid for a full bufalo trophy with a scratch and a very poorly made hunting........

My first impression of all this is that She was bitten..........just a opinion....!!!!!!

 

[BRICKBURN]

………………..

Your posting makes it seem as if the outfitter did anything wrong which they did not, we all have had terrible experiences with outfitters (I've had my share) but there are always two sides to every story.

……….

Welcome to AH.

Carrie, Talk about a baseless conclusion. You are denying the PH did anything wrong without being present.
Sad you're angry about your friend, but that does not have any bearing on the matter.

The Outfitter hired the PH and is responsible for his actions while conducting a hunt they arranged.

Christina has taken responsibility for her actions.

If you are " in the know":

Why did the PH quit hunting the Buffalo?

That seems to be the confusing part for the hunter. It certainly was confusing for me.
If it was "pointless" to hunt the Buffalo, why start in the first place? Illogical.

Simple answer:
It was not pointless, the PH did not want to CONTINUE hunting the Buffalo.
Why?
What changed?

 

[CarrieZylka]

Welcome to AH.

Carrie, Talk about a baseless conclusion. You are denying the PH did anything wrong without being present.
Sad you're angry about your friend, but that does not have any bearing on the matter.

Not a baseless conclusion at all. As pointed out in previous comments - it is legal to hunt buffalo at night where they were. How is that a baseless conclusion?? As clarified earlier - my meaning behind that sentence was the PH did nothing illegal.

And thanks for the welcome, contrary to popular belief I'm not new to African Hunting forums, just this particular one and this is not my first rodeo.

I think the point I was making has been lost - I don't know the details of the hunt and neither do any of you, you are taking a one sided version of the events as truth. I don't really care about that part.

If you read my initial comment - my issue was with the fact that she made it seem like she was pressured into making a terrible shot, not once but twice.

I've passed on really great animals because I wasn't comfortable with the shot. I've stood my ground on the matter - perhaps I'm more assertive than Cristine, that's ok too, no one makes me do something I don't want to. But my original point wasn't even about the PH or anything - it was about blaming a poor shot on someone else.

I've heard a completely different story from people who were actually there, but that is between her and them. She got her answer, she had a bad experience, see wants to let everyone know about her bad experience, people have questions - that's all fine, but don't play the victim when you consciously made a poor shot. She pulled the trigger no one else. Did she own it - yes - did she post like someone was forcing her hand - yes.

That was my entire point.

 

[gordon-kruger]

Gordon kruger Funny how some Ph think it is never there fault only ever the clients.She listen to her ph but it is still her fault or if she did not take the shot the ph would tell her it her fault she did not get the buff.You trust the ph to tell you the right think to do and I think she was told wrong to take a chance at night.I am betting they made her feel very uncomfortable and were pushing for her to take the chance.We all hope we make the right choice but it makes it harder when you have someone else who you trust telling you to go ahead.I think the whole thing seems like it was bad all around and not the hunt she was planning on.

Yes, I see people like you before billc, some prefer that I shoot the buffalo for them, its the most easy way also please keep your comments for your self, I see that you have tourist hunting one time in RSA and that's not make you a expert in the subject I guess !!

Gordon

 

[billc]

Yes, I see people like you before billc, some prefer that I shoot the buffalo for them, its the most easy way also please keep your comments for your self, I see that you have tourist hunting one time in RSA and that's not make you a expert in the subject I guess !!

Gordon

Well hunting for 35 years all over the places make me about as much a expert as you as far as I am concern.I would not have anyone shoot anything for me unless needed.You may not like my comments but on this forum we are all free to say what we want with in reason.The fact is a few of the people on this thread mustly new people jumping on this thread have shown themselves as people I would want no dealings with and you have made that list also.I do only have a total of 20 days in africa doing 18 days this trip but dont kid yourself thinking I dont know what I am doing in the hunting world only you looking stupid will come from that.

As for her taking the shot she did with the ph telling her to do so.He could and should have stopped that for happening.She was unsure and not wanting to take it by what she has said.After all we should lissten to the ph right.

 

[BRICKBURN]

……... - my meaning behind that sentence was the PH did nothing illegal.

Just welcomed you here and make no assumptions about your background. For some folks it is their first rodeo and I hope they learn from this.

Apparently under that CAE it is legal to use lights. (That was a new one to me before I investigated this thread.)
Fair enough, we agree, nothing illegal was done in regard to the light being used in hunting this Buffalo.
It's use apparently confused the hunter. The printed EC legislation reinforced the confusion.

The OP may have felt pressure.
It is a fact, some people are more assertive than others. That is one of the major learning opportunities being provided here. You had better be able to say NO. To yourself and someone in authority.

We all agree the hunter is responsible for the shot and its result. Poor or precise the matter is sealed.

Who entered the contract to hunt a Buffalo?
The only reasonable and legal conclusion is the Outfitter contracted to do so with the client. The Outfitter provided this PH to do the Buffalo hunt.

Why did this PH start hunting a Buffalo?
The circumstances were right to do so. All endorsements, permits and licenses were in place when the hunt started.

It appears the OP voiced a desire (repeatedly) to fulfill her responsibility to finish the Buffalo.
Apparently though, these multiple requests to "follow up" were not all acted upon by the PH.

Why did the contracted PH quit hunting the Buffalo after the shots were fired?
Because it quit being legal to do so!

So, when is a PH not a PH?

From PHASA:
Criteria for Professional Hunters Permit

1. Note: Unless the applicant can submit written proof of having at least sixty (60) days experience hunting dangerous game or, alternative, of being in possession of a valid permit before 30 March 1997----his/her professional hunter's permit will be endorsed to exclude the hunting of elephant, rhino, lion, leopard, buffalo, and hippo.

So you are right Carrie. The PH was likely avoiding doing anything illegal.

Assuming this is the correct answer to the confusing riddle.

How come an Outfitter contracted to hunt a Buffalo without being able to provide a properly licensed PH for the entire duration of the hunt?
Gambled and did it for a friend?

What a shitty position to put the PH and the client in!!!

 

[gordon-kruger]

Billc, yes your probably know what you speaking about after that "intensive" 18 days tourist hunting in RSA... seriously you are a funny man !! Let me tell you that I have have doing professional hunting for 35 years in Zambia-Botswana-Tanzania-Zimbabwe and RSA, I have working as Game warden from 1980-89 in Timbavati game reserve, and during this years I was part of a 4 man elephant/buffalo culling team, further more I spend 16 years within a anti poaching unit in Sioma Ngwezi (Zambia) and then freelancing as PH with only big five clients... So, YES I can say that I have a little bit experience what I speaking about regarding Africa and wildlife management.

Gordon

 

[enysse]

The plot twists and thickens.

 

[CarrieZylka]

Why did the contracted PH quit hunting the Buffalo after the shots were fired?
Because it quit being legal to do so!

How come an Outfitter contracted to hunt a Buffalo without being able to provide a properly licensed PH for the entire duration of the hunt?
Gambled and did it for a friend?

What a shitty position to put the PH and the client in!!!

What an odd (and baseless) conclusion. Where in this entire thread did Cristina indicate that the outfitter provided an improperly licensed PH? I somehow missed that.

 

[billc]

Billc, yes your probably know what you speaking about after that "intensive" 18 days tourist hunting in RSA... seriously you are a funny man !! Let me tell you that I have have doing professional hunting for 35 years in Zambia-Botswana-Tanzania-Zimbabwe and RSA, I have working as Game warden from 1980-89 in Timbavati game reserve, and during this years I was part of a 4 man elephant/buffalo culling team, further more I spend 16 years within a anti poaching unit in Sioma Ngwezi (Zambia) and then freelancing as PH with only big five clients... So, YES I can say that I have a little bit experience what I speaking about regarding Africa and wildlife management.

Gordon

Gordon what I have found out in life anyone who has to tell all they did and how great they our plus put down someone because I only spent 18 days is SA is a joke all around.I have hunted mexico,canada and awhole lot of western states so I must be great to as I am from the united states and hunted all I could.I am not in africa so have not hunted there like you have not hunted here I would bet.Any day you want to try and hike some mountains with me your more the welcome to come see what hunting in the states is all about.Maybe not as dangerous but not some easy task either.
Know for the record I think your nothing more then someone who likes to pat themselves on there back to get through there day.You come at me not knowing anything about me so you tell me who looks like the ass.Thank god must of th PH's I have dealt with dont act like you have on this thread.Clients always wrong and if you have not hunted africa for decades you must not be able to hunt becasue gordon has said so.

 

[gordon-kruger]

Most of PH I dealt with.. listen how stupid you sound after one single hunt in South Africa.. and this is a African hunting forum and therefore I don't thing its relevant how many raccons you have catch in Nebraska or what ever... sorry but I don't like to continue this argumentation, its too low and with your disrespectful language is far under my dignity !

 

[billc]

Most of PH I dealt with.. listen how stupid you sound after one single hunt in South Africa.. and this is a African hunting forum and therefore I don't thing its relevant how many raccons you have catch in Nebraska or what ever... sorry but I don't like to continue this argumentation, its too low and with your disrespectful language is far under my dignity !

How stupid I sound does one trip mean I only dealt with one ph.Wrong again old gordon.Dealt with 3 ph on that one trip and all had more common sense then what you have on this thread.If you think living in africa means you are the only one who knows how to hunt you are as crazy as I think.Going to be dealing with 3 or maybe even 4 ph's on my up coming trip and all with out even hunting with them yet so more common sense already then you.
Now please go crawl under the buff chip you crawled out from under and have a great day.Maybe do some post on threads were you help someone without putting them done.

 

[BRICKBURN]

What an odd (and baseless) conclusion. Where in this entire thread did Cristina indicate that the outfitter provided an improperly licensed PH? I somehow missed that.

She obviously did not have a clue so Christina of course did not write anything about the DG endorsement.

Let's connect the dots.
What is absent in the story?
I reviewed the law and the circumstances of the hunt as presented in an attempt to reach a rational and logical conclusion that would adequately explain why a PH would not follow up a wounded animal.

1. YOUR assertions that the PH did not do anything illegal. I believe you.

2. The client paid the Trophy Fee.
If the animal had recovered its health why was the trophy fee payment accepted? Someone demanded the money because the animal was wounded.

3. Given the assertion that the PH "Louie Bodill of Starr & Bodill" did not continue follow up the Buffalo after HIS client wounded it.

4. I trust the obvious frustration and questions about why the client was not following up her wounded Buffalo as desired.
(Note the comments about repeated requests to follow up being ignored by her PH)

5. "Louw Pieterse ……….. I was never his client,.."
Why was a second PH present? Conclusion: Dangerous Game endorsement!

6. "The day after I wounded the buff, I stayed with Louw Pieterse the next day when he, his partner, his trackers, and dogs did an all out search for the buff."

7. The BS story that the Buffalo had magically disappeared from a CAE property. (second hand story from Louie provided to client) Certificate of Adequate Enclosure is just that, a property can not allow the critters to escape.
Just as excuse to stone wall the client.

From what has been written here:
When Louw is present a Buffalo is being hunted.
When Louw is NOT present the Buffalo is NOT being hunted.

So, the only legal reason that make any sense to me: When is a PH not a PH?

Criteria for Professional Hunters Permit

1. Note: Unless the applicant can submit written proof of having at least sixty (60) days experience hunting dangerous game or, alternative, of being in possession of a valid permit before 30 March 1997----his/her professional hunter's permit will be endorsed to exclude the hunting of elephant, rhino, lion, leopard, buffalo, and hippo.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Let's stay on topic.

 

[ActionBob]

The plot twists and thickens.

Wow it sure does thicken as it is stirred!

Would be interesting to hear from the PH's involved... or not PH, or... This is where it loses me and I have to ask myself... with all the deals floating around and all the options to hunt on various properties and in various Countries... Why in the World would I ever take a chance on hunting with these guys?

I'm sure most on here are coming to that conclusion. Yet I think most or all would welcome explanations or at least the other side of the story and especially "direct from the horses mouth".

Carrie I think you made a point that the handful of people on this thread will basically not make a hill of beans difference to the Outfitter or PH involved..... I'm not so sure, things have a way of coming back around, there tends to be some justice or at least karma or something out there. Successful people tend to be consistent with their results and their follow up and the way they conduct business..... Hmm, come to think of it, the same could be said for unsuccessful people.

Carrie I suspect you might come to some of these conclusions yourself if you step back and look from the outside in.

One more point, with this modern and Global reach of communications, and the way stuff gets out on the internet and tends to stay there, and granted it can get very blown up and taken out of context (not so sure this has, but that may yet play itself out). And we all feel some personal connection yet most of us have never met... I don't participate in Facebook, but isn't it is bit of a phenomenon how people get so connected and "friend" all these people around the World, yet may have never met? And many assume they "know" people because of some internet communication and may never have even heard each others voice? How do you know someone enough to have such strong opinions without meeting in person or at least talking and hearing each others voice?

Guess I'm too old fashioned to understand.

 

[enysse]

The whole truth is not out there yet, it may never.

Even if it is legal, why would a first time Cape buffalo hunt during the night with 5 days left??? Why would a PH even suggest it??? Why was this Cape buffalo not hunted down? If it was alive and well, why was the whole trophy fee paid? Could Christina not have extended her hunt or come back to hunt it? Plus or Minus 10 grand is a lot to waste.

 

[ROCKET]

Plus or Minus 10 grand is a lot to waste.

..........

 

[ChasingHemingway]

Continued to be interested in "why" hunting buff at night with 5 days left?!?!

 

[Wheels]

Carrie / Gordon,

Welcome to AH. Love the way you both jump in without hesitation. Hope you both stay around and participate on other threads.

All the best.