I don't bring this up lightly...

[rookhawk]

I just wanted to talk about the gun itself for a minute, having nothing to do with the transaction at all.

Speaking as an advocate for the rifle, I want all of these guns to live forever.

The gun was originally finished with what was likely tru-oil, a hybrid between a real oil finish and a polymer that dramatically expedites the finishing of a new rifle. Because the finish was then carded down at the end with rottonstone, it left the factory with a satin finish leaning a bit into semigloss original finish, rather than a hand rubbed "London Finish" that takes months to apply.

When the damage happened to the gun, there were several types of damage. The fine scratches could have been completely eliminated. The dents could have been steamed out about 50% better, 95% better had the gun originally had an actual oil finish without polymers and its hardeners. (a real oil finish breathes so you can do some clever conservation tricks) The gouges on the shadowline cheek piece are the most complicated to repair because you cannot sand your way to victory without causing asymmetry to the comb, and you cannot sand even more to create a uniform shadowline cheek piece or you'll alter the sight picture for the shooter.

In light of all of those gotchas, 3 days ago the rifle's best fate would have been the following:

Use mineral spirits, oil, and bronze wool to knock down finish and get the wood uniform. Steam out the dents, buff out the scratches. Use a pigmented oil to discolor the gouges to reduce their appearance. Use a three-sided checkering file very lightly to repair minor damage to the borders. Lay on a real oil finish that will now bond to the original dull finish. Overall, what I'm describing is best efforts at mitigation for $750 of effort. The buildup of finish would take a drop every other day for 60 days and rubbing it out each day. I would have used a stone for an hour under magnification to clean up the steel grip cap, stripped the bluing, and refinished that one part. ($250 of effort for a gunsmith if you can't do it yourself)

The result would have been a 95%-97% condition gun with a few warts, but it would look like a lovingly serviced "daily driver" double rifle with a lot of embellishment.

The decision to put Boiled Linseed on the gun at literally a volume that is 1000x quantity (not hyperbole) all at once without prepping the wood has really injured the rifle. All the dents, scratches, and checkering is now caked in linseed oil. At that volume, I could not coax all of it out with mineral spirits with hours of toothbrushing the checkering. If I did, I would ruin the checkering through saturation. (unless I spent 2 years doing it in steps, then adding hardeners to dry the checkering points out, then resuming the project every two weeks)

All the scratches and dents are now discolored and forever memorialized under a lot of gloppy finish. Lint, pills, and drips cannot be rubbed out due to the volume applied in a single coating. The finish will take years to properly harden all the way through.

To decide to bring that wood back to condition today now means a $1500 job at minimum, stripping the whole gun to bare wood, staining it, laying up finish from scratch, recutting all the checkering to get the oil out of it, doing a full grain fill, and in the end the gun is never going to be the same as it could have been 3 days ago.

The above isn't a critique of the seller or buyer, just my opinion (probably a worthless one) as to what has just happened to the gun. It has definitely injured the collectibility of the gun demonstrably which is fine because I believe the seller's intent was to sell "a shooter" in the very first place and the buyer's intent was to buy "a collector".

The question the free market will now determine is what is the present value of a gun that is definitively and now irrevocably "a shooter" by all standards.

I feel bad for the buyer, the seller, and the rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I see a lot of arrogance in this thread. It seems some folks who have been hanging out on this forum for years, who have made multiple trips to Africa, and who spend lots of money on maintaining an image of self-perceived nobility simply expect the rest of us unwashed peasants will automatically bow down obediently and accept whatever they say or do as "just the way it is." It is refreshing to find a few of us who still believe respect must be earned not bought. "The principle of the thing" should mean more than dollars and cents involved. At first I viewed this thread as a couple of rich guys in a catfight over peanuts. Meh. But then the photos and screenshots started to tell a story of principle vs bullheaded arrogance. The deception was significant. I used my lowly Springfield 03A3 very hard for more than forty years before refinishing it in 2021. I gotta say it did not look nearly as beat up as the seller's "perfect" double rifle after one safari. I think the buyer was very generous to attribute all that damage to just one season in the field. I would not have been as kind. The documentation re the refund dispute is convincing enough. It appears the seller was just blowing it off, thinking some guy with enough money to buy a $20K gun would not care about five hundred bucks. Or rather, if he's a "gentleman" he SHOULDN'T care about $500. Pfft.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I just wanted to talk about the gun itself for a minute, having nothing to do with the transaction at all.

Speaking as an advocate for the rifle, I want all of these guns to live forever.

The gun was originally finished with what was likely tru-oil, a hybrid between a real oil finish and a polymer that dramatically expedites the finishing of a new rifle. Because the finish was then carded down at the end with rottonstone, it left the factory with a satin finish leaning a bit into semigloss original finish, rather than a hand rubbed "London Finish" that takes months to apply.

When the damage happened to the gun, there were several types of damage. The fine scratches could have been completely eliminated. The dents could have been steamed out about 50% better, 95% better had the gun originally had an actual oil finish without polymers and its hardeners. (a real oil finish breathes so you can do some clever conservation tricks) The gouges on the shadowline cheek piece are the most complicated to repair because you cannot sand your way to victory without causing asymmetry to the comb, and you cannot sand even more to create a uniform shadowline cheek piece or you'll alter the sight picture for the shooter.

In light of all of those gotchas, 3 days ago the rifle's best fate would have been the following:

Use mineral spirits, oil, and bronze wool to knock down finish and get the wood uniform. Steam out the dents, buff out the scratches. Use a pigmented oil to discolor the gouges to reduce their appearance. Use a three-sided checkering file very lightly to repair minor damage to the borders. Lay on a real oil finish that will now bond to the original dull finish. Overall, what I'm describing is best efforts at mitigation for $750 of effort. The buildup of finish would take a drop every other day for 60 days and rubbing it out each day. I would have used a stone for an hour under magnification to clean up the steel grip cap, stripped the bluing, and refinished that one part. ($250 of effort for a gunsmith if you can't do it yourself)

The result would have been a 95%-97% condition gun with a few warts, but it would look like a lovingly serviced "daily driver" double rifle with a lot of embellishment.

The decision to put Boiled Linseed on the gun at literally a volume that is 1000x quantity (not hyperbole) all at once without prepping the wood has really injured the rifle. All the dents, scratches, and checkering is now caked in linseed oil. At that volume, I could not coax all of it out with mineral spirits with hours of toothbrushing the checkering. If I did, I would ruin the checkering through saturation. (unless I spent 2 years doing it in steps, then adding hardeners to dry the checkering points out, then resuming the project every two weeks)

All the scratches and dents are now discolored and forever memorialized under a lot of gloppy finish. Lint, pills, and drips cannot be rubbed out due to the volume applied in a single coating. The finish will take years to properly harden all the way through.

To decide to bring that wood back to condition today now means a $1500 job at minimum, stripping the whole gun to bare wood, staining it, laying up finish from scratch, recutting all the checkering to get the oil out of it, doing a full grain fill, and in the end the gun is never going to be the same as it could have been 3 days ago.

The above isn't a critique of the seller or buyer, just my opinion (probably a worthless one) as to what has just happened to the gun. It has definitely injured the collectibility of the gun demonstrably which is fine because I believe the seller's intent was to sell "a shooter" in the very first place and the buyer's intent was to buy "a collector".

The question the free market will now determine is what is the present value of a gun that is definitively and now irrevocably "a shooter" by all standards.

I feel bad for the buyer, the seller, and the rifle.

My thoughts are the same re seller's repair job. I started to write something similar then backed off. I don't have the "credibility." You have literally taken the words out of my mouth. However, I'm not convinced the gun's original finish was polymer based. True-oil would typically leave it lighter, in my opinion. Perhaps stained first but I think that would have subdued contrasting grain more? Anyway, I agree the seller has not helped matters at all slobbering it with lots of linseed oil. If I bought it today, the wood would still have to be refinished.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Was wondering how you were gonna work that ol’ Springfield into this conversation. Was not disappointed

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Was wondering how you were gonna work that ol’ Springfield into this conversation. Was not disappointed

I’ve been waiting to hear how the synthetic stock on his a5 was the answer to all questions, but what do I know I’m just a no good pirate.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Simple solution:

1. Apologize.
2. Refund/reimburse what is owed.


Although, you know what they say about pride? “It’s a terrible thing to waste”…

 

[rookhawk]

It seems some folks who have been hanging out on this forum for years, who have made multiple trips to Africa, and who spend lots of money on maintaining an image of self-perceived nobility simply expect the rest of us unwashed peasants ...

I get this vibe from your posts loud and clear that you do believe fine guns = rich guys. The financial portfolio of other members is none of my business, but my experience is that there is a lot more passion on this forum than money. Most people I know on this forum buying five-figure firearms have intense passion, have saved a long time, and are middle class earners. It's akin to the machinists I know that probably bring in $60k a year but saved for a decade by buy a quarter million dollar mill or lathe...it's their life, passion, and identity.

I cannot presume to know the net worth of another forum member, but I've seen a lot of frugality from friends to achieve their dreams of firearm ownership and taking "hunts of a lifetime".

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I get this vibe from your posts loud and clear that you do believe fine guns = rich guys. The financial portfolio of other members is none of my business, but my experience is that there is a lot more passion on this forum than money. Most people I know on this forum buying five-figure firearms have intense passion, have saved a long time, and are middle class earners. It's akin to the machinists I know that probably bring in $60k a year but saved for a decade by buy a quarter million dollar mill or lathe...it's their life, passion, and identity.

I cannot presume to know the net worth of another forum member, but I've seen a lot of frugality from friends to achieve their dreams of firearm ownership and taking "hunts of a lifetime".

Fair enough. You will note I quantified with "some folks ..." I think you know who I'm referring to and why. ; )

 

[PARA45]

I believe there is a misinterpretation of what was said. @Rare Breed said the gun had been checked/inspected by JJ and it was perfect. JJ checked the function and accuracy of said rifle. JJ did not check if the rifle had any dings or scratches, that is not the function of this gunsmith. If a gun has been hunted, expect to have scratches, dings, and what not. It's a tool and used as such. If you want a perfect rifle, then buy a new rifle.

 

[Newboomer]

I’ve been waiting to hear how the synthetic stock on his a5 was the answer to all questions, but what do I know I’m just a no good pirate.

After reading 6 pages of this incident here is my conclusion:
1. Seller should have featured current photos taken at time of listing and described accurately all descrepancies.
2. Buyer should have requested current photos and discussed descrepancies with buyer by email or prefefably by phone. If there still were doubts buyer could(should ) have met with seller in person to resolve questions and renegotiate purchase price..
3. Price and shipping should have been agreed to before conclusion of transaction.

It seems that the "blame" is equally shared by both parties. Neither voiced all concerns and conditions resulting in misunderstanding by both parties.

I've spent over half my life dealing with homeowners, subcontractors and bureaucrats so I have a fairly good idea of how to deal with people. I hope a magnanimous solution will be reached in this transaction. I don't wish to see anyone's reputation besmirched.

 

[375Fox]

Not at all good sir. I took it, in part, as pointing out that we are all in a different place with our situations. I have said this before: I do not at all begrudge those in a better financial than myself, and am happy for their successes. And I do not feel bad at all for my own, even if it's somewhat less. Losing $500 bucks would piss me off.

I’m in a very good financial position. I could absorb $500 but it would absolutely piss me off as well. I really can’t believe there are individuals who would say it’s only $500. An item was sold as something different than what it was with photos that no longer represented the item. $1, $500, $10k the principle is still the same. This should have never made it to a public thread. All costs should have immediately been reimbursed to the buyer for the seller’s error.

 

[Pilgrim]

The logic here is simple, if it was misrepresented a full refund is in order, otherwise the buyer should eat some shipping costs.
I ran a small ebay business for a while selling used car parts. A number of times I had to eat costs that I really shouldn't have to preserve a good image. Without good image, you no longer sell stuff.

 

[375Fox]

I believe there is a misinterpretation of what was said. @Rare Breed said the gun had been checked/inspected by JJ and it was perfect. JJ checked the function and accuracy of said rifle. JJ did not check if the rifle had any dings or scratches, that is not the function of this gunsmith. If a gun has been hunted, expect to have scratches, dings, and what not. It's a tool and used as such. If you want a perfect rifle, then buy a new rifle.

I would expect the photos used to sell an item are the photos of the item being sold at the time. I see no excuses for that.

 

[franzfmdavis]

May I suggest that we all collectively use this opportunity to enhance the expectations we have for each other when we buy and sell on the site. We have all held each other to posting a price and mentioning if the gun is being offered for sale on other sites, both of which are great criteria.

I suggest we have a standard selling checklist that we all commit to use going forward:

1. Make and model
2. Year of manufacture (if known)
3. The date when any photos provided were taken
4. An indication whether additional photos or video are available upon request
5. A detailed description of the condition of the gun and any damage
6. A detailed description of any accessories or additional items offered along with the main item for sale
7. The total price of the item and additions
8. The terms for payment accepted by seller
9. The responsibility for shipping costs (and requested insurance)
10. An inspection period of 3 days from receipt of the item with the gun being unfired by buyer during that time, and proof of return shipping being provided within the 72 inspection window
11. A clear indication of what fees and costs will be refunded by seller if buyer elects to return the item during the inspection period.
12. Whether the seller has the item listed elsewhere for sale.
13. A commitment to try to resolve any disputes privately first.
14. A commitment to notify the public AH community of any praise or concerns that could benefit others in future transactions and maintain the integrity of the trust within the AH community.

In short, because we are a small group of enthusiast, I think we should expect more from each other than what we get on the normal selling sites.

This of course, is just a first draft, and I welcome any suggested changes.

 

[rookhawk]

Not everyone is into gun lingo, but its worth throwing out some lingo that every buyer and seller should know and use to avoid misunderstandings. These words were not used so I'm not critiquing buyer nor seller, but consider this:

Mint - Never ever use this word. It means never handled, 100% condition as-new. All papers, boxes, handtags, etc. A brand new gun at cabelas in Remington 700 is 100% condition. When the box is opened, put on the sales floor, and sold, it becomes 98% condition which is the highest value in the price book.

NRA Antique - Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Fine, Excellent. (60% through 90% plus condition) These terms are defined and there are case study examples in the price books. These terms are used for guns deemed antiques by age. NRA Antique Excellent is roughly NRA Modern Good condition. You can imagine why you need to use very clear definitions and understand what those mean because 100 year old guns and 1 year old guns are scored by a different system.

NRA Modern - As mentioned, the price book stops at 98% condition. If you hunted your gun VERY carefully your gun is not NRA Modern 98%. It's probably 95%-97% condition best case. You have to be careful with this because the value of NRA modern 90% condition versus 99% condition is usually FIFTY PERCENT of book value. Words mean a lot and they need to match pictures.

Checked by a smith = A well known specialty gunsmith has declared the gun mechanically sound. Triggers, Ejectors, Bores are sound and safe for use. The stock has been inspected for latent defects. A drop test has been performed to ensure the sears do not fire if jarred. Safety works. The gun feeds and extracts some cartridge or dummy round (but maybe not yours!). Mechanically sound does not indicate a condition per se, it could be 70% condition and still be mechanically sound, it could be a 99% condition Sabatti new in box that is not mechanically sound.

New - See mint above. Don't use this word without disclaimers and parameters. If you're the first owner, it isn't new. It may be near-new and you can explain how little you handled and touched it while also defining what boxes and papers still remain.

Regulated - It means nothing without a target and load. Don't say it without supporting evidence, what you think is acceptable regulation is not the same as me or any other seller/buyer. Your near new, never fired gun regulated from the factory for Hornady DGS loads may not in fact be "well regulated" at all. Post a target and a load to demonstrate what it is, do not simply say "its good/excellent/perfect".

Disclose what work you have done or had done to the gun. Its totally acceptable to most guns to alter them, usually for the better. Give the buyer a chance to understand what the factory has done, versus what a slob smith has done, versus what a best-in-the-world smith has done that is better than factory. (e.g. an upgrade by JJ Peridoux is likely better than factory services)

Declare the inspection period. Custom is 3 days and non-firing. That means you have 3 days to return the gun to the seller, not three days to think about returning the gun. Tracking number to the seller in <3 days IS required. Non-firing inspection is the norm. If you buy a gun and opt to shoot it and it blows up in those three days, the onus is that it is 100% the buyer's fault. No seller can determine what load was used to blow up the gun so they can't be to blame. Thus, its pretty important to ask what load was used and then ask if you can use that exact load in a firing 3-day inspection period. A seller may or may not agree to that term so you must discuss that before purchase. Buyers blow up guns with negligence a lot more often than sellers deceive by selling unsafe guns. A member on this forum negligently destroyed a $30,000 double rifle because he was reckless and impulsive, putting a 106 foot-pound load into a gun that deserved a 58 foot-pound load. While both loads were SAAMI spec, it was a vintage gun made for only the former. 100% buyer's fault and he's lucky he's alive, but sadly he left the forum rather than taking the shame of openly discussing his bad choices and how he disregarded sound advice.

That's it. Just use definable words so you don't speak past one another. Don't make up definitions or you'll cause heartache.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I’m in a very good financial position. I could absorb $500 but it would absolutely piss me off as well. I really can’t believe there are individuals who would say it’s only $500. An item was sold as something different than what it was with photos that no longer represented the item. $1, $500, $10k the principle is still the same. This should have never made it to a public thread. All costs should have immediately been reimbursed to the buyer for the seller’s error.

I've been one that has said this has been much about nothing in regards to the remaining amount of money in dispute. Through my own lack of reading carefully, I was thinking it was more like $200 or less. I still wouldn't like it if it were this amount, but the older I get the more inclined I am to be a bit more choosy about what I let upset me.

$500 does take it to a point that I would not be so inclined to dismiss it. I do hope the two parties involved can still work this out.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Not everyone is into gun lingo, but its worth throwing out some lingo that every buyer and seller should know and use to avoid misunderstandings. These words were not used so I'm not critiquing buyer nor seller, but consider this:

Mint - Never ever use this word. It means never handled, 100% condition as-new. All papers, boxes, handtags, etc. A brand new gun at cabelas in Remington 700 is 100% condition. When the box is opened, put on the sales floor, and sold, it becomes 98% condition which is the highest value in the price book.

NRA Antique - Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Fine, Excellent. (60% through 90% plus condition) These terms are defined and there are case study examples in the price books. These terms are used for guns deemed antiques by age. NRA Antique Excellent is roughly NRA Modern Good condition. You can imagine why you need to use very clear definitions and understand what those mean because 100 year old guns and 1 year old guns are scored by a different system.

NRA Modern - As mentioned, the price book stops at 98% condition. If you hunted your gun VERY carefully your gun is not NRA Modern 98%. It's probably 95%-97% condition best case. You have to be careful with this because the value of NRA modern 90% condition versus 99% condition is usually FIFTY PERCENT of book value. Words mean a lot and they need to match pictures.

Checked by a smith = A well known specialty gunsmith has declared the gun mechanically sound. Triggers, Ejectors, Bores are sound and safe for use. The stock has been inspected for latent defects. A drop test has been performed to ensure the sears do not fire if jarred. Safety works. The gun feeds and extracts some cartridge or dummy round (but maybe not yours!). Mechanically sound does not indicate a condition per se, it could be 70% condition and still be mechanically sound, it could be a 99% condition Sabatti new in box that is not mechanically sound.

New - See mint above. Don't use this word without disclaimers and parameters. If you're the first owner, it isn't new. It may be near-new and you can explain how little you handled and touched it while also defining what boxes and papers still remain.

Regulated - It means nothing without a target and load. Don't say it without supporting evidence, what you think is acceptable regulation is not the same as me or any other seller/buyer. Your near new, never fired gun regulated from the factory for Hornady DGS loads may not in fact be "well regulated" at all. Post a target and a load to demonstrate what it is, do not simply say "its good/excellent/perfect".

Disclose what work you have done or had done to the gun. Its totally acceptable to most guns to alter them, usually for the better. Give the buyer a chance to understand what the factory has done, versus what a slob smith has done, versus what a best-in-the-world smith has done that is better than factory. (e.g. an upgrade by JJ Peridoux is likely better than factory services)

Declare the inspection period. Custom is 3 days and non-firing. That means you have 3 days to return the gun to the seller, not three days to think about returning the gun. Tracking number to the seller in <3 days IS required. Non-firing inspection is the norm. If you buy a gun and opt to shoot it and it blows up in those three days, the onus is that it is 100% the buyer's fault. No seller can determine what load was used to blow up the gun so they can't be to blame. Thus, its pretty important to ask what load was used and then ask if you can use that exact load in a firing 3-day inspection period. A seller may or may not agree to that term so you must discuss that before purchase. Buyers blow up guns with negligence a lot more often than sellers deceive by selling unsafe guns. A member on this forum negligently destroyed a $30,000 double rifle because he was reckless and impulsive, putting a 106 foot-pound load into a gun that deserved a 58 foot-pound load. While both loads were SAAMI spec, it was a vintage gun made for only the former. 100% buyer's fault and he's lucky he's alive, but sadly he left the forum rather than taking the shame of openly discussing his bad choices and how he disregarded sound advice.

That's it. Just use definable words so you don't speak past one another. Don't make up definitions or you'll cause heartache.

Excellent additions!

Ultimately, if enough people agree, we can include these definitions and the checklist in the classified header page which currently list some criteria.

 

[N.Moritz]

May I suggest that we all collectively use this opportunity to enhance the expectations we have for each other when we buy and sell on the site. We have all held each other to posting a price and mentioning if the gun is being offered for sale on other sites, both of which are great criteria.

I suggest we have a standard selling checklist that we all commit to use going forward:

1. Make and model
2. Year of manufacture (if known)
3. The date when any photos provided were taken
4. An indication whether additional photos or video are available upon request
5. A detailed description of the condition of the gun and any damage
6. A detailed description of any accessories or additional items offered along with the main item for sale
7. The total price of the item and additions
8. The terms for payment accepted by seller
9. The responsibility for shipping costs (and requested insurance)
10. An inspection period of 3 days from receipt of the item with the gun being unfired by buyer during that time, and proof of return shipping being provided within the 72 inspection window
11. A clear indication of what fees and costs will be refunded by seller if buyer elects to return the item during the inspection period.
12. Whether the seller has the item listed elsewhere for sale.
13. A commitment to try to resolve any disputes privately first.
14. A commitment to notify the public AH community of any praise or concerns that could benefit others in future transactions and maintain the integrity of the trust within the AH community.

In short, because we are a small group of enthusiast, I think we should expect more from each other than what we get on the normal selling sites.

This of course, is just a first draft, and I welcome any suggested changes.

We will call it “The Rare Breed Rule” and always remember to stand behind your word and never misrepresent an item you’re selling.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I believe there is a misinterpretation of what was said. @Rare Breed said the gun had been checked/inspected by JJ and it was perfect. JJ checked the function and accuracy of said rifle. JJ did not check if the rifle had any dings or scratches, that is not the function of this gunsmith. If a gun has been hunted, expect to have scratches, dings, and what not. It's a tool and used as such. If you want a perfect rifle, then buy a new rifle.

I don't agree. If the gunsmith was only certifying perfect "function or accuracy" then that should have been specified in the advertisement. As I understand it, the ad quoted this gunsmith as simply saying the gun was "perfect." The implication is he thought it was perfect in every respect, including fit and finish. Perhaps he looked at it before it fell off a truck on safari?