Lightweight 12ga SxS?

[Nevada Mike]

...and 28 gauge guns, due to their typical 3/4 oz. loads have some limitations on range of usage. But they do kill out of proportion to their size. The ammo costs more for some unfathomable reason.

 

[steve white]

Pigeon guns are built to perform--if that bird even touches the outer ring, it is considered a miss, and often has a lot of money riding on the shot. They are built to take it and dish it out forever. One builder stated, "they are beautiful on the INSIDE." You would be unlikely to WEAR one out in a lifetime.
Having said that, you said something very important about the shotgun you recently purchased "it fit me well." I just will not buy a shotgun unless it fits me almost perfectly. Good luck on your future acquisitions.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Excellent thread, on everyone's behalf, and an interesting take on the 28's. I was curious as the outfitter was willing to discount a lot of their inventory in that bore. The "Essencia" in particular?
As a side note: They were really pushing/marketing "Dickinson" during the visit. ?

Thank you for confiding in your collections, time, & knowledge. Great article @Red Leg etc.
Beautiful gallery

 

[Red Leg]

Interesting. 28’s actually tend to sell at a premium. They are considered the perfect “bird” (quail) gun across most of the South. They are built in smaller numbers, and in a quality SxS or OU are aimed at a presumedly more discriminating clientele.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I have a 6-3/4lb SKB Royal Light SXS 2-3/4” that is a wonderful upland bird gun. It’s a beast with 2-3/4” magnum loads though, std loads are fun.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

In support of @Red Leg ’s assessment that all British side by side shotguns are scaled for their intended purpose, this is a 12 gauge Webley & Scott Model 700 which I gifted my eldest grandson. As a curious bit of trivia, Webley & Scott Model 700s were the last game guns/ side by side shotguns to be commercially manufactured in England. They ceased production in 1979 after cheap Spanish (and later Turkish) shotguns flooded the English market. This one’s choked full in the left barrel and improved cylinder in the right.

Despite having a chamber length of 2 3/4” and being proofed for 1 1/4 ounces of shot, Webley themselves always discouraged using any shot weight heavier than 1 1/8 ounces in their Model 700s. As can be seen in this vintage advertisement.

1907 made William Moore & Co. Game Gun in 12 Gauge (2 1/2”)

Typically 12 gauge shotguns were not commonly used for wildfowl hunting by the English until the late 1920s. They had 4 gauge, 8 gauge & 10 gauge ( the old 2 7/8“ chamber length) shotguns for that. In the late 1920s, the 12 gauge duck gun began to catch on (especially in the colonies). These had 3” chambers and were proofed for 1 1/2 ounces of shot and 52Gr of smokeless powder (intended for a service pressure of 10,427 P.S.I). Here are some of the more popular examples.

B.S.A (Birmingham Small Arms) Wildfowler Model

W.W. Greener Empire Model

Midland Gun Co. Wilffowler Duck Gun

Isaac Hollis & Sons Wildfowl model (interestingly enough, this one has 3 1/4” chambers)

I’ve observed that the game guns all weigh between 6 pounds 6 ounces to 6 pounds 10 ounces. The duck guns on the other hand, all weigh between 7 pounds 8 ounces to 9 pounds ( 9 pounds 6 ounces in the case of the Isaac Hollis). The game guns always invariably feature double underbites, while the duck guns (with the exception of the B.S.A) all feature Greener style cross bolts. The game guns all have straight grip stocks, while the duck guns all feature semi pistol grip stocks. Scaled for intended purpose, indeed.

 

[rookhawk]

There are some beautiful doubles (Side by Sides) out there.
ie Rizzini's, Fabarm, Famars, etc .. 12 Gauge, personally. 6lbs. or Ultralight's 4lbs.

Would it not be in the best interest to use 3" Magnums? (Cracked stocks, etc.)
Thank You.

Weight goes up, quality / shootability goes down.

A 4lb 12-bore side by side will certainly be a very, very rare thing. Even then, it will be a 2" chambered gun with 25"-26" barrels. It will send a load equivalent to a 28 bore shotgun, but with a pattern that is roughly 27% better. (all things equal, a gauge step down provides 9% pattern improvement)

For a 2.5" chambered 12 bore, you're typically going to see 6.5lb guns.

For a 3" chambered 12 bore, you're typically going to see 7.5lb to 8lb guns.

Obviously, most (nearly all) of the 3" guns are modern contemporary garbage with low quality wood that must be overbuilt to prevent a crack, and will usually be a through-bolt stock design so they are excessively large since the stock has an internal void. Not good. not desirable. not pleasant to carry or own.

I don't shoot more birds than most because I'm a good shot, I shoot more birds because I carry a light gun so I can carry it all day in "ready position". By the time the other shooters can fumble their gun back into their hands correctly for a shot, the bird is already at 45 yards or is dead by me seconds earlier.

Always best to be fast rather than good if you're a wingshooter. Ounces matter after a few minutes of carry.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Weight goes up, quality / shootability goes down.

A 4lb 12-bore side by side will certainly be a very, very rare thing. Even then, it will be a 2" chambered gun with 25"-26" barrels. It will send a load equivalent to a 28 bore shotgun, but with a pattern that is roughly 27% better. (all things equal, a gauge step down provides 9% pattern improvement)
...(snip)

...Always best to be fast rather than good if you're a wingshooter. Ounces matter after a few minutes of carry.

I have a number of REALLY lightweight bird guns... they must be REALLY good quality! And, yes, they are. Do not forget that there are a fair number of SxS flyer guns of high quality - Italian, Brit, and even some American guns. They are heavy on purpose - for a specific purpose.

Your second point - pattern v. bore size is highly dependent on ammunition, choke, distance, etc. SO NOT UNIVERSALLY TRUE.

Your third point... fast can be too fast - smooooth is best.

YMMV

 

[Louis Toadvine]

Too bad Beretta no longer manufactures side by sides.

Hunter-Habib,

Beretta currently manufactures the 486 Parallelo SxS. Their website had it listed as a "legacy model" for a while, but that was apparently a mistake and the site just hadn't been updated.

They actually just unveiled a restyling with deeper engraving two months ago. See the below video and link. This restyled version is being manufactured and sold currently. You can still find the older version with the lighter engraving for sale, as well.

486 - side-by-side hunting shotgun | Beretta

486 Beretta: elegant, classic and safe. Discover all the features of the side-by-side hunting shotgun on Beretta.com.

www.beretta.com

 

[BeeMaa]

A little combination of old and new...Longthorne Gunmakers make bespoke shotguns and will craft the barrels from titanium if you would like to keep the weight down. Not exactly traditional, but it would allow you to carry a traditional looking SxS that is lightweight and still shoot full proof loads if necessary. Of course, everything at a price.

 

[Louis Toadvine]

A little combination of old and new...Longthorne Gunmakers make bespoke shotguns and will craft the barrels from titanium if you would like to keep the weight down. Not exactly traditional, but it would allow you to carry a traditional looking SxS that is lightweight and still shoot full proof loads if necessary. Of course, everything at a price.

I saw those Longthorne titanium SxS guns on the TGS Outdoors YouTube channel. He has a newer video of using a titanium 28 bore when he visits Hudson Farm and Griffin & Howe in NJ. He used one in a different video, too (can't remember which one). I don't watch a ton of YouTube but that's become a favorite.

Looks like a really cool gun, but definitely not cheap.

 

[BeeMaa]

I saw those Longthorne titanium SxS guns on the TGS Outdoors YouTube channel. He has a newer video of using a titanium 28 bore when he visits Hudson Farm and Griffin & Howe in NJ. He used one in a different video, too (can't remember which one). I don't watch a ton of YouTube but that's become a favorite.

Looks like a really cool gun, but definitely not cheap.

I’ve been watching TGS for a while now. Like his videos. You are right about the Longthorne…$$$!!!!

 

[rookhawk]

Interesting. 28’s actually tend to sell at a premium. They are considered the perfect “bird” (quail) gun across most of the South. They are built in smaller numbers, and in a quality SxS or OU are aimed at a presumedly more discriminating clientele.

4x to 6x the price of 12 bores. (in mid-grades or modern guns)

Since we're talking about high quality guns, i'll make broadbrush statements that relate to British guns. (I don't play around with best Italians)

In the history of the British gun trade, 96% of shotguns were 12 bore.
About 1.5% 10 bore.
About 2% 16 bore.

All the other gauges: 4 bore, 6 bore, 8 bore, 14 bore, 20 bore, 24 bore, 28 bore, 32 bore, 9mm, and .410 make up the residual.

Thus, people go crazy about smallbores because they are the micro-remnant of all guns ever produced. Subtract guns purpose built for the aristocracy's women and children, "grown up man" small bores are pretty darned rare in vintage British guns.


Two other rules that are helpful to our discussion the readers should know:

Rule 1: Greener's Rule of 96. The proof mark load on the gun, multiplied by 96, should be the weight of the gun. Thus, a lightweight 12 bore should be 1-1/8 ounce load, times 96, = 6lbs 12 ounces or less.

Rule 2: The best shotgun loads are shooting a "square load" where the height and width of a shot charge are equal. This prevents damaging the static shot at the front of the load from being crushed and deformed by the moving shot at the back of the load during ignition. It also ensures the pellets have somewhere to go as they are squeezed first in the forcing cones and again in the chokes. A square load creates a wall of shot, rather than a string of shot.

Knowing those two rules, seeking overbuilt guns with long chambers undermines the whole plot. If you need a 3" 12 bore, you would be better suited by a lighter, better patterning, 2.5" 10 bore.


The big secret you should know if you want a nice 12 bore: 12 bore british shotguns are totally undervalued. A true "best gun" can be had far south of $10,000, whereas the identical gun as a 28 bore might be a $125,000 gun.

 

[Nevada Mike]

A recent purchase. Henry Atkin 20 gauge sidelock ejector with full 14-5/8" length of pull. 27" barrels and weighing 5 lbs,. 12 oz. Small gauge guns are out there.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Here is my favorite shotgun. George at Champlin found it for me many years ago. It is an 1882 Charles Lancaster 12 bore, side lever, back lock. George did not think the barrels were the original barrels, but they are Charles Lancaster barrels. It was reproofed for 2 3/4", 1 1/8" loads. However, I only shoot light 1 oz or 7/8 oz loads, most of which are 2 1/2". JJ fitted it to me, and I have shot it so much on rough shoots, driven birds, tower shoots and over dogs that a standard SxS or OU just feels odd. If I don't practice with my other shotguns prior to a hunt, I will struggle fumbling for hammers before I shoot.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Here is my favorite shotgun. George at Champlin found it for me many years ago. It is an 1882 Charles Lancaster 12 bore, side lever, back lock. George did not think the barrels were the original barrels, but they are Charles Lancaster barrels. It was reproofed for 2 3/4", 1 1/8" loads. However, I only shoot light 1 oz or 7/8 oz loads, most of which are 2 1/2". JJ fitted it to me, and I have shot it so much on rough shoots, driven birds, tower shoots and over dogs that a standard SxS or OU just feels odd. If I don't practice with my other shotguns prior to a hunt, I will struggle fumbling for hammers before I shoot. View attachment 533480View attachment 533481View attachment 533482View attachment 533483View attachment 533484View attachment 533485

That is a unique and interesting piece! I can see why it’s your favorite

 

[leslie hetrick]

my browning 20 ga BSS sporter made in the late 70,s is not the lightest double barrel nor is it the heavest, it has 28" barrels-ejectors-selective triggers- english straight butt stock./ it has served four generations of hunters while fireing untold thousands of factory and reloaded shell with out any repairs./ it is a 3" gun, but 99 precent of the shells fired have been 2-3/4".