Limpopo Buffalo

[WAB]

Fair enough, what started me on my soap box (I make no excuses for what I have said) had more to do with Joe’s comment about names and the snarkyness that followed that comment. Fox took offense to my first post as he and I have had several disagreements over the past and he can’t seem to get over them. I get under his skin which causes him to bark at me at which point it goes south from there.
I do apologize for hijacking the thread but I do not apologize for what I’ve said nor do I apologize for speaking out against people belittling others which is exactly what happened.
Sure I could have let it go but a few folks could have held their tongues and not made belittling comments which had absolutely nothing to do with the OP’s question.
Again if he’d asked what people think about buffalo hunting in RSA that would have been one thing but he didn’t nor anything close to that. He asked if two bulls were good bulls FOR South Africa in a thread about Buffalo in Limpopo with a South African PH he’s hunted with before. That’s a pretty specific question and in no way warrants a couple of people tripping over each other to be the first to belittle him, the outfitter, and an entire industry of which 3/4 of the sponsors of this very website belong to.
It is nothing more than the opportunity for a few to take a jab at people and a perfectly legal and ethical industry they don’t agree with. It further more added nothing constructive to the original question as asked.
If I am to blame for being considered as starting it than so be it. As Joe said, “I’d say it again”.
I do 10000% agree with your statement of the hunt being as important if not more than the animal itself. But I think the problem lies in that, that means different things to different people. I want everyone to be successful in their dreams and endeavors. I am also very happy for those who accomplish their dreams and goals, that includes people who I may disagree with their methods (provided they are not doing anything illegal) I have my line in the sand on what I will and won’t do but that doesn’t mean I’m better than anyone else. Nor does it mean that I am not happy for them if that was their goal and they accomplished it. It simply means that I wouldn’t do it but “good on ya” and I’m sure not going to belittle someone over my differences of opinion.

I respectfully suggest you let it drop. If we haven’t run the OP off yet, he has more patience than most.

 

[BryceM]

Well, this is a lively thread.

Without stepping in the middle of an argument (hopefully) these are my thoughts:
- People have strong beliefs about how buffalo should be hunted.
- People have strong beliefs about which buffalo should be hunted.
- If you are hunting wild or free-range buffalo, it is usually considered good form to take old bulls that are past breeding age. This is good for the health of the herd. For many, the ultimate thrill is to take an old, ugly, deeply scarred warrior with a broken horn, infected tooth, and missing both ears and half of his tail. Such a beast will have run off many youngsters, battled many lions, and escaped many hunters. Such a beast will possibly have never seen a fence in his life. An opportunity to hunt an animal like this is usually expensive, always uncertain, but usually a fun and meaningful experience.
- If hunting ranched or farmed animals is your thing, all of the above is less important. The breeding is not happening by natural selection, and it probably makes no difference if you shoot an animal that was put there specifically for that purpose.
- These are gorgeous bulls, with excellent genetics. They both seem a bit young - pretty faces, pretty capes, sharp tips, and maybe not fully-hard bosses.
- Hunting a known animal isn't my thing. I've done it, and it's OK, but the animal just doesn't mean much to me. I really enjoy open range, no fence or low fence hunting. If it's your thing, do it well, be safe, and have fun.
- My only buff to date was open range in a Caprivi concession. Saving up for it took me longer than a different hunt would have, but the experience was unforgettable.

 

[BRICKBURN]

 

[sgt_zim]

My PH who I have hunted with the last several years has been trying to get me to come back for a Buffalo as he knows its on my bucket list. I am not a good judge of Bull's so I thought I would put this in here for those with more experience to help me with some input. I am not looking for a record book Bull but something representative and good quality. He sent me these 2 that he has a location on for a possible 2026 hunt. Any thoughts or input are helpful. Are these decent quality Bulls for SA ?

View attachment 656518

View attachment 656517

My one and only buff, a barren cow, was on a property of about 20 square miles in Limpopo near where the Crocodile and Marico rivers meet to form the Limpopo river. No, I didn't have to walk 20 miles to track her down. But much of Limpopo is brutally hard hunting, navigating your way through endless tracts of acacia thorns and steel grass - I absolutely got cut to pieces, but it was also the most fun I've ever had. If that's what you want to do, you can do that. Or you can take the easy way and sit in a blind near a water tank. Limpopo especially can be hunted however you want to hunt. I wanted to work for all my animals, the only 1 I hunted from a blind was warthog. When we were out walking and stalking, you just couldn't see them in the tall grass until you got to within 20 or 30 yards and you only had a second or 2 to judge the cutters and pull the trigger.

Tell you PH how you want to hunt and he'll accommodate you on it.

All that said - these are not bulls I'd want to hunt, they're too young. Old dugga boys and barren cows will always be what I go after. Even on a game ranch, my preference is to take animals who are consuming resources without contributing to the gene pool.

Would I rather hunt buff in the Zamebezi valley or Tanzania? Sure. Who wouldn't? But you've got to have the budget for it, and I don't presently. I'd rather hunt ZA or Namibia every 2 or 3 years than Zimbabwe or Zambia every 5 or 6 years.

 

[mark-hunter]

So, quite an escalation of heated opinions!
(I will need to go through in more details once I grab my morning coffee!)

There must be something about cape buffalo to keep the tempers up so high!
I never saw such heated debate about hunting the springbok! How come?

I hunted only one buffalo so far, in Caprivi, wild buffalo, for the double price of the buffalo that can be hunted in South Africa. After three hunts in farm lands, I wanted to see the wilderness. I had the money, I went for it. Size of trophy not important. I would regret only, not taking the buffalo which did not happen.

But I have zero prejudice of South Africa, and very likely I might hunt my next buffalo there, or a buffalo cow.
Someone on this forum once said, last 200 meters of stalking is the same. I will have to check this once i go to RSA.

Asking the right questions, and choosing the right outfitter? (self sustaining herd, size of property, etc)
We know the story, due diligence.
But there is always this risk.
I cannot be 100% certain of an investigation conducted by myself, across the ocean via internet, email and phone, including checking the pink references picked by outfitter, I am afraid that something may slip away.
There is always a chance of wrong choice.
And some people have been burned. If the investigation could be done over phone, email, internet, the cops would be just sitting in the office.
Thats that part of risk.

Someone said: hunt wild buffalo, in wild country and there is a risk, of not getting one? But experience would be best (if getting a buffalo).
True. But what if not getting one? How to digest?
I remember some bitter reports on the forum, of a failed hunt, and even with some of most renowned PHs in wild country, in good areas. Hunt is hunt, but cash is gone.

Few days ago, I wrote somewhere, there is a risk at every corner: ammunition's getting lost on airplane, rifle getting damaged or lost, trophy got damaged in taxidermy or shipping, or wrong trophy getting home, or choosing wrong outfitter.
Entire adventure of Africa is a risk. Not to mention less visited countries - a separate subject all together.
There is not 100% guarantee in every step of the way of African safari.

But damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!
Just do it. Go.

If something goes wrong on the ground, adapt and improvise with PH.
If wrong trophy is sent home, complain heavily, bitch and moan , but keep it. Part of experience
If buffalo is not taken, lick the wounds, save the money and smartly repeat. You did it once, you can do it again. If you get to hunt in a cage, unplanned and by surprise, take that buffalo pet, and repeat the hunt when you can somewhere else. Learn from that experience.

I have other hunting priorities, but when I go for my next buffalo, or cow, it will be probably in RSA.

 

[gizmo]

So, quite an escalation of heated opinions!
(I will need to go through in more details once I grab my morning coffee!)

There must be something about cape buffalo to keep the tempers up so high!
I never saw such heated debate about hunting the springbok! How come?

I hunted only one buffalo so far, in Caprivi, wild buffalo, for the double price of the buffalo that can be hunted in South Africa. After three hunts in farm lands, I wanted to see the wilderness. I had the money, I went for it. Size of trophy not important. I would regret only, not taking the buffalo which did not happen.

But I have zero prejudice of South Africa, and very likely I might hunt my next buffalo there, or a buffalo cow.
Someone on this forum once said, last 200 meters of stalking is the same. I will have to check this once i go to RSA.

Asking the right questions, and choosing the right outfitter? (self sustaining herd, size of property, etc)
We know the story, due diligence.
But there is always this risk.
I cannot be 100% certain of an investigation conducted by myself, across the ocean via internet, email and phone, including checking the pink references picked by outfitter, I am afraid that something may slip away.
There is always a chance of wrong choice.
And some people have been burned. If the investigation could be done over phone, email, internet, the cops would be just sitting in the office.
Thats that part of risk.

Someone said: hunt wild buffalo, in wild country and there is a risk, of not getting one? But experience would be best (if getting a buffalo).
True. But what if not getting one? How to digest?
I remember some bitter reports on the forum, of a failed hunt, and even with some of most renowned PHs in wild country, in good areas. Hunt is hunt, but cash is gone.

Few days ago, I wrote somewhere, there is a risk at every corner: ammunition's getting lost on airplane, rifle getting damaged or lost, trophy got damaged in taxidermy or shipping, or wrong trophy getting home, or choosing wrong outfitter.
Entire adventure of Africa is a risk. Not to mention less visited countries - a separate subject all together.
There is not 100% guarantee in every step of the way of African safari.

But damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!
Just do it. Go.

If something goes wrong on the ground, adapt and improvise with PH.
If wrong trophy is sent home, complain heavily, bitch and moan , but keep it. Part of experience
If buffalo is not taken, lick the wounds, save the money and smartly repeat. You did it once, you can do it again. If you get to hunt in a cage, unplanned and by surprise, take that buffalo pet, and repeat the hunt when you can somewhere else. Learn from that experience.

I have other hunting priorities, but when I go for my next buffalo, or cow, it will be probably in RSA.

That is absolutely the most well written response in this entire thread and one of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever seen written on this entire forum over the years.

 

[Spearhead]

Any post on this forum should be subject to passionate replies, experiences, and yes maybe some humor and a little ribbing from time to time. What is uncalled for is lectures from any member.
We are all here to learn (at least I hope so) and use the information from experienced members to help us make sound decisions on hunting Africa.
I look at this site like sitting around the campfire.
Great information, knowledge, humor, ribbing and experiences. Save the lectures please.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

The pictures might be intentional to entice you to commit to a buffalo hunt. The horns are very nice but the center of the horns, called the "boss" is a hard, solid bone shield that forms when the horns of adult male Cape buffalos fuse in the middle of their head. The boss covers the entire top of the buffalo's head and is used as protection in defense. The larger the boss, the older the bull is. Horns come in all shapes and sizes, so don't be misled about which one to take.

I am sorry sir but i compmetely disagree with your statement here on a few points

1- the larger the boss the older the bull- completely wrong, its all genetics some have big bosses and other have small bosses no matter the age
2- adult male cape buffalos fuse in the middle-also compmetely false some never fuse no matter how old as seen in some pics on this very thread

I am sorry if you have been misinformed in the past

Regards

 

[sgt_zim]

I am sorry sir but i compmetely disagree with your statement here on a few points

1- the larger the boss the older the bull- completely wrong, its all genetics some have big bosses and other have small bosses no matter the age
2- adult male cape buffalos fuse in the middle-also compmetely false some never fuse no matter how old as seen in some pics on this very thread

I am sorry if you have been misinformed in the past

Regards

On point 2, perhaps a logical/mathematical set theory error on the writer's part.

If a bull has fused bosses, then he's an old bull.
"This" bull has fused bosses,
Therefore he's old.

"Fused" is a subset of "old," and no inference can be drawn from unfused.

Thus end's today's lesson in propositional logic.

 

[Red Leg]

Come on my good friends…naming the buffalos in jest is not encouraging and could easily be seen as belittling to someone who is new to buff and is just asking a question so @gizmo is not out of line with his post…was the commentary funny, yes I chuckled I could not help myself and am no hypocrites but easy to do after hunting DG for many years now of course including buff

Belittling? Oh good Lord. If true, then I think we all need to take a diaper break. If nothing else, I suspect the OP, should he have read any of this, is likely far better prepared to ask a few questions about buffalo hunting in South Africa than he was when he posted the photos of Cletus and Buford (couldn't help myself). The truth is the more information he has the better questions he will ask of his PH/outfitter - whether the issue is trophy size (not that important to me and many others here), ranch or concession size, nature of the operation, or cost. After all, at the end of the day this is about what a client's dollars will purchase against a hierarchy of desires associated with the hunt. Finally, like most "investments," cheapest is not always the best "value." As I noted before, there are indeed buffalo to be hunted in South Africa that represent great value. A "come shoot this bull photo" is a cautionary indicator for me.

 

[Russ16]

Just a thought for the OP. You asked if they were good bulls. My answer would be do you like them? If those bulls and the hunt you would have for them make you happy they are good bulls no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

I was once at an even with one of the top master sommeliers in the country. One of my friends asked him what the best wine in the world was. His response was “whichever one you like the best” that’s always stuck with me and applies to so many things—cars, wine, whisky, guns, hunt’s and trophy’s.

 

[Red Leg]

Just a thought for the OP. You asked if they were good bulls. My answer would be do you like them? If those bulls and the hunt you would have for them make you happy they are good bulls no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

I was once at an even with one of the top master sommeliers in the country. One of my friends asked him what the best wine in the world was. His response was “whichever one you like the best” that’s always stuck with me and applies to so many things—cars, wine, whisky, guns, hunt’s and trophy’s.

Very true - but somewhat more complicated if you have never tried wine.

 

[gizmo]

Any post on this forum should be subject to passionate replies, experiences, and yes maybe some humor and a little ribbing from time to time. What is uncalled for is lectures from any member.
We are all here to learn (at least I hope so) and use the information from experienced members to help us make sound decisions on hunting Africa.
I look at this site like sitting around the campfire.
Great information, knowledge, humor, ribbing and experiences. Save the lectures please.

I would say I agree if people posted with good intentions and in a light hearted manner. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. It is uncalled for, for members to have to put up with a handful of people’s crap because they feel they are above everyone else.

 

[sgt_zim]

Just a thought for the OP. You asked if they were good bulls. My answer would be do you like them? If those bulls and the hunt you would have for them make you happy they are good bulls no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

I was once at an even with one of the top master sommeliers in the country. One of my friends asked him what the best wine in the world was. His response was “whichever one you like the best” that’s always stuck with me and applies to so many things—cars, wine, whisky, guns, hunt’s and trophy’s.

The missus and I went to Italy for our honeymoon, and of course visited a number of vineyards. One of the vintners made a particular point of noting the same thing. Dude was Robert de Niro's doppleganger/twin brother, even down to the mole on his cheek. Anyway, he said "If you like, is good. If you no like, is pee pee. Not matter if bottle cost $5 or $100."

I don't quite have the palate for wine that I do for Bourbon, but I will say his 10 yo Brunello was worth every penny.

 

[375Fox]

I would say I agree if people posted with good intentions and in a light hearted manner. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. It is uncalled for, for members to have to put up with a handful of people’s crap because they feel they are above everyone else.

You were encouraged to stop once. I don’t think you realize the fool you make yourself. For all the talk of belittling and uncalled for comments you were the one you who called members pretentious pricks in your first response and suggested others pay for your hunts. The victim mentality doesn’t play well to large groups of people here either. Decide what you want and save up for it. All the individuals you’ve taken opportunity to criticize work or worked for a living.

 

[gizmo]

You were encouraged to stop once. I don’t think you realize the fool you make yourself. For all the talk of belittling and uncalled for comments you were the one you who called members pretentious pricks in your first response and suggested others pay for your hunts. The victim mentality doesn’t play well to large groups of people here either. Decide what you want and save up for it. All the individuals you’ve taken opportunity to criticize work or worked for a living.

Boy do you have a high opinion of yourself. It boils down to a hellava lot of members and sponsors have had enough of you and a few others tripping over each other to be the first to bash someone from your high horse.
I don’t give a crap who suggests I stop. As long as you and others will run your yapper I can guarantee you I’ll fire back.
It’s pretty sad the number of people that have called, texted, and pm’d me thanking me for standing up to those of you who can’t get it through your dense heads that your behavior is out of line, demeaning, and childish.
Just because 3 or four of you think your some self proclaimed great white hunter doesn’t mean anyone wants to listen to your banter. I’ve tried to be nice and have been ridiculed for it in the past so, ya I will be nasty if necessary. You and the other couple of great white hunters throw the first stone and then get butt hurt when people fire back. Grow up, if you want it dropped and or avoid these situations in the future then the shut up and act like a decent human.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Democrats and Republicans. Maybe we should move this discussion to the political forum. Then the A-holes and the easily offended can have at it. ***

*** ( Light hearted and in jest. Sorta)

 

[375Fox]

Boy do you have a high opinion of yourself. It boils down to a hellava lot of members and sponsors have had enough of you and a few others tripping over each other to be the first to bash someone from your high horse.
I don’t give a crap who suggests I stop. As long as you and others will run your yapper I can guarantee you I’ll fire back.
It’s pretty sad the number of people that have called, texted, and pm’d me thanking me for standing up to those of you who can’t get it through your dense heads that your behavior is out of line, demeaning, and childish.
Just because 3 or four of you think your some self proclaimed great white hunter doesn’t mean anyone wants to listen to your banter. I’ve tried to be nice and have been ridiculed for it in the past so, ya I will be nasty if necessary. You and the other couple of great white hunters throw the first stone and then get butt hurt when people fire back. Grow up, if you want it dropped and or avoid these situations in the future then the shut up and act like a decent human.

If you are going to fire back I’d suggest putting some actual thought into your argument. I think you lost sight of that before your first post. You might consider reading the OP’s one response to this thread.

 

[gizmo]

If you are going to fire back I’d suggest putting some actual thought into your argument. I think you lost sight of that before your first post. You might consider reading the OP’s one response to this thread.

I would recommend you take your own advice then step back and acknowledge that a lot of people don’t care nor appreciate being belittled by self proclaimed know it alls.
Look this thread has already hit rock bottom and started digging. We can do this all day but I’d recommend that if you wish to continue by all means send me a pm or feel free to reach out any other way. Also, there is a super cool little tool on this website I recommend you use. It’s called an ignore button. If you put me on ignore then you won’t have to worry about getting your feelings hurt when I post something.
Hurry now and try to get the last word in…..

 

[IvW]

Main issue I have is that this puts hunting in RSA in a bad light as a whole......
Yes there are put and take operations etc. And high fence and blah blah blah.....
So does USA and Texas in particular......

So many uninformed people do not realise how many places in RSA are availible with self sustaining herds of Buffalo....some are truely huge properties......

South Africa single handed is responsible for the existance of the White Rhino.....through conservation and private land owners efforts....

If there was no hunting in Limpopo you would have cattle farms and no game......just the way it is.....if it pays it stais.....

You dont like it sure go where ever you want but stop bashing hunting in RSA.....rather simple.....

Unfortuanately some rich ass people will always look down on others......