Mannlicher Schönauer 'Prewar' M1900, M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' or 'High Velocity'

[Brian Rothhammer]

Weihenstephaner

Indeed:

 

[John Telford]

My 6.5 built by Westley Richards - “the Gentleman’s Rifle”...

 

[John Telford]

Indeed, the pre - M1924 MS has the smoothest action and magazine feed of any firearm you'll ever handle provided it is fed ammunition of the proper profile, particularly overall length and shape of bullet tip. With the addition of the 'guide ring' to the Schoenauer magazine that occurred with the M1924, such careful feeding is not as crucial.

Scope mounts, you say? Here's more fun stuff from the '39 Stoeger:

First a 'claw mount' for Mousies. Note the 'see through' rings. My M1910 Takedown MS wears a Gerard B on claw mounts.
View attachment 263073
View attachment 263074 View attachment 263075 View attachment 263076
View attachment 263077
View attachment 263078

This is the sweet little unit that goes on the back of n MS bolt.

Brian do you know if the Parker peep sights are still available?

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

My 6.5 built by Westley Richards - “the Gentleman’s Rifle”...

Verrrrrrrry nice... and a Westley Richards, no less.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Brian do you know if the Parker peep sights are still available?

If you mean the Parker Hale 'Sportarget', those are long obsolete but they and the Lyman 1A do come up on Ebay and other auction 'sites on occasion, usually rather pricey.

I have seen nice ones (on auction listings) mounted to 'sporterized' Greek MS that are otherwise in rough shape where the hammer price would have been worth it for the sight alone.

Here's a PH Sportarget on a different mount which could be adapted / modified: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Parke...794953?hash=item3667beda49:g:MLEAAOSwI4teI68D

 

[flatwater bill]

Lots of good info on the M-S rifles in your comprehensive post. I love the old catalog reprint.....That 1939 Stoeger catalog shows prices of $140-160 for the rifles. It was a lot of money in the day, but they were certainly worth it. Austrian firearms were high quality down to the last detail. Just as a reference, a Parker GHE shotgun was about the same price back then, and a Win Model 70 Super Grade in 300 or 375 H&H was $86. ...great post......thanks......FWB

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

A member PM'ed me with an inquiry regarding an MS with which he was unfamiliar.

I am copying to this thread an edited and expanded version of my reply to him as it may prove useful to others who run across 'sporterized' military Mannlicher Schoenauers.

First, an edit of the query:

Brian I was in a Gun shop last week and came across what I thought was a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1903 but upon inspection it was stamped on the reciever Breda with what looked like a Swiss cross. It was chambered in 257 Roberts... I was wondering if you had any information about them? Thank you.

Edited, expanded, version of reply:

Disclaimer: This answer is based on the information provided, I haven't seen the firearm or images of it.

That said, an MS looking rifle with 'Breda' stamped on it at the factory is, indeed, a 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer. It is not an M1903, rather it is a Y1903/14/27.

The Mannlicher Schoenauer was first publicly displayed at the Paris Worlds Fair of 1900 in fine sporting rifle trim. The actual purpose of the M1900, however, was an attempt to woo lucrative military contracts in competition with the Mauser 98 and other contenders. Prototypes in military form were shopped to ordnance departments as fine sporting versions found their way to the hands of influential parties. Some M1900 receivers also found their way to the finest of British gunmakers such as Westley Richards.

Greece eventually contracted for a 1903 revision, designated Y1903, which entered production in 1905 and was delivered in 1906. Revised again, great numbers of them saw service in WW1 as the Y1903/14.

Also during 1905, the Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting rifles and stutzen models of M1903 and M1905 entered production at Steyr. The M1903 used the same action, internal parts, and magazine as its Y1903 cousin and the same 6.5X54MS cartridge. M1905 was chambered for and had a specific magazine spool machined for the 9X56MS cartridge. The next few years would see introduction of the M1908 and M1910 chambered for the 8X56 and 9.5X57, respectively. Other than their model specific bores, chamberings, and magazines the M1903 through M1910 were identical. All were offered in half stocked rifle and full stocked stutzen (carbine) versions with various barrel lengths and single or double set triggers, as well as a nifty take down model.

The M1924 had a slightly longer magazine to accept the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906', which was carried over to the 'M1925', or High Velocity rifle which was offered in a variety of chamberings. Production continued on a limited basis during Anschluss (Nazi occupation of Austria) and was halted by the end of WW2.

In1950, production resumed on a series of somewhat modified models which continued through 1972.


Now for Breda. http://bredausa.com/about/#:~:text=...arms in,smaller and more manageable companies.

Breda is an Italian firm that was contracted to build (some say merely to assemble, some suspect only to 'drop ship') Y1903/14 rifles (Y1903/14/27) for further Greek contracts in order to circumvent export restrictions during the bizarre political climate of 1920s Europe. They are Mannlicher Schoenauers, just (allegedly) built in Italy rather than Austria.

For a very detailed chronology of the Y1903, Y1903/14, Y1903/14/27, Y1903/14/30... here's a video from Othais and Mae of C&Rsenal- you can skip to 47:06 to go straight to the Breda MS, but the entire presentation (as well as their others) is very well worth watching.:

All Y1903/14/27 (along with all 1900 and 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauers) were originally chambered for the 6.5X54 MS cartridge. Converting a 'Greek' Mannlicher (or any pre M1924 commercial MS) to another cartridge is a difficult and dicey process as the magazine spool, housing, and well are machined precisely to the profile of the proprietary MS cartridge that corresponds to the particular model. While collector value of a sporterized MS is considered by many to be virtually 'nil', values of unmolested original military MS are rising.

There's nothing like a pre WW2 Mannlicher Schoenauer, however, and the military models are internally identical to their civilian cousins. While it is empty, open the bolt, pull the trigger and gradually angle the muzzle downward. On a proper running MS the bolt will slide home and close completely with a satisfying 'snap' at about 30 degrees or so. Many Bredas and other military MS saw a lot of use, so check to see if any major corrosion is present. It's a big bonus if the seller has any spent casings that have been fired in the MS to check for proper headspace.

Some clues as to your MS origins are:

Reciever bridge stamping. The pre WW2 MS sporting rifles and stutzen were marked with model identity through the M1924:

M1900 - prototypes, sales samples, limited production. There were civilian and military M1900, along with custom sporters finished by 'bespoke' British gunmakers.

The other early model 'civvies' were marked as above, but with corresponding M1903, M1905, M1910, M1924 designation:

'Made In Austria' was added in mid 1924

The Sequoia.

The original M1924 was produced (some say 1000 units, others dispute figure) on a longer action and with longer magazine than the previous models in .30-'06 for the Sequoia Importing Company to be marketed in the United States. This was before A.F. Stoeger became sole U.S. agent for Steyr.

Many unsold Sequoias were rebarrelled and rechambered for various metric cartridges at Steyr to be sold in Europe:

This is a Steyr factory reconfigured M1924. Collectors often refer to these and the other MS produced between the M1924 and M1950 as 'M1925' models, though Steyr never used such designation. Stoeger called them 'High Velocity'.

'Made In Germany' indicates that this MS receiver was made during the 1938-45 'Anschluss', or Nazi occupation of Austria.

This marking, on left side rail, indicates a (civilian) MS sporting rifle or stutzen manufactured before mid 1926. The company name was changed th Steyr Werke AG in 1926, and commercial MS receivers produced afterward were so marked from then to the Anschluss.

The left rail of an 'Anschluss' MS sporting arm, which should also bear German final proofs.



Now for the military Mannlicher Schoenauer.

The front receiver bridge of military contract Mannlicher Schoenauers were marked with the Greek crest and model desognation of Y1903 or Y1903/14:

If marked thus, it's a 'Greek' MS - At left is the Greek Navy crest.

The left side rail markings indicate year of initial manufacture of contract renewal / revised versions:

Y1903

Y 1903/14

'Breda' Y1903/14/27

Y 1903/14/30 - these carbines were the last Greek contract Mannlicher Schoenaurs.

There were also some interesting prototypes, sales samples, and small trial runs of other military models, particularly in the pre WW1 years.

I may have omitted a detail or three, as I know more about pre WW2 MS sporting arms than I do of their military cousins. If I have made errors or significant omissions, please let me know though it will likely be too late to edit.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

... I love the old catalog reprint.....That 1939 Stoeger catalog shows prices of $140-160 for the rifles. It was a lot of money in the day, but they were certainly worth it.

Glad you're enjoying!

The 1939 Stoeger scans are from an original catalog that I bought (at a very reasonable price) on Ebay.
Actually, I bought one for the very purpose of scanning, then upon receiving it figured it was too nice to 'cut up'. I then found another, paid even less, and it was nicer then the first. From there I carefully disassembled the first one for flat scanning.

The old catalogs do, indeed, provide a wealth of information and the 1939 'Worlds Fair' edition of the A.F. Stoeger catalog may be one of the best of the period immediately prior to World War Two.

For price comparisons 'then to now', there's this: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

That 1939 Stoeger catalog shows prices of $140-160 for the rifles.

From the same Stoeger:

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

 

[flatwater bill]

Why didn't gramps buy a brace of these, and put them in storage for me?......along with an 1895 M-S.........Well, in 1939 WW2 was just ending the Great Depression, and most folks didn't have two nickels to rub together....but fun to see the old prices.....FWB

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Why didn't gramps buy a brace of these, and put them in storage for me?......along with an 1895 M-S.........Well, in 1939 WW2 was just ending the Great Depression, and most folks didn't have two nickels to rub together....but fun to see the old prices.....FWB

Sorry to be 'that way' (and I really don't intend to be arrogant), but I feel the need to correct you on your first sentence as this is a thread intended to dispel myth and promote accurate facts regarding the Mannlicher Schoenauer, so here goes:

There was no 1895 MS. There certainly was an 1895 Mannlicher, in wonderful rifles and stutzen, some of which were built up by the foremost gunmakers of their day. The M1895 was fed cartridges by way of the 'Mannlicher Packet Loading System', or en bloc. I suppose one could call it a Mannlicher - Mannlicher.

M1895 Mannlicher Stutzen

Mannlicher Schoenauer, however, refers to the marriage of an action with roots in Herr Mannlicher's designs with the marvelous Schoenauer rotary magazine which was introduced as the M1900.

Ferd and Otto
(Ritter Ferdinand von Mannlicher und Otto Schoenauer)

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Why didn't gramps buy a brace of these, and put them in storage for me?...
...Well, in 1939 WW2 was just ending the Great Depression, and most folks didn't have two nickels to rub together....but fun to see the old prices.....FWB

I got lucky.

When my grandfather was a up and coming young fella at Goodyear Tire and Rubber in the late 1920s, he 'lost' a coin toss in which the winner would go on to the glorious position of Airship pilot with Goodyear - Zeppelin while the other would go into 'exploration' and development of crude rubber operations.

The result of his 'loss' was that he was sent to Colombo, Ceylon, in 1930 to oversee operations there. As the 'Number One' of a foreign business concern he had a place of sorts in British colonial society and part of his job was to 'put on the dog' as representative and ambassador for Goodyear. The photos of him at the country club teaching proper Brits to play American baseball, with cricket bats laid aside, are priceless.

After a particular day at Lakehurst, New Jersey, in 1937 the airship captain job would have rather lost its shine. As friends and relatives in the U.S. were suffering the Great Depression, ol' Grand Dad was living in the lap of luxury - all expenses paid.

Image owned by Brian Rothhammer

When it came time to go out on shikar (hunt), he was to outfit himself with top quality gear. For a rifle, he bought a second hand Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model M1910 with Gerard scope and fitted case.

Image owned by Brian Rothhammer

When He and the wife & kids (my mother and uncle) evacuated ahead of advancing invasion by the uninvited Japanese Empire (1940), the MS came to the States. Other than a loan to my Dad for use on feral pigs while doing secret Naval electronic work on Santa Cruz island in the early 1950s the MS rested in its case for decades.

I eventually came to inherit the MS with the above pictured leopard's claws still in the case, the pelt and pith helmet having long since decayed.

So it was that I was set on a course to learn reloading for and to unravel the history and mysteries of der Mannlicher Schoenauer.

It is a work in progress..

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

...I then found another, paid even less, and it was nicer then the first.

...[sic].

I can't believe I did that.... let's try nicer than the first?

I do wish more time was allowed for edits on this 'site. It is a great website, though!

Would a moderator be kind enough to go back and 'fix' that one for me? I'm a tad embarrassed.

 

[HWL]

View attachment 361366
M1895 Mannlicher Stutzen

I think this is not a M1885 Mannlicher Stutzen, but a German Model 1888 Commission rifle..... probably a short version for cavalry or artillery

HWL

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I think this is not a M1885 Mannlicher Stutzen, but a German Model 1888 Commission rifle..... probably a short version for cavalry or artillery

HWL

Actually we're both wrong, but you;re closer. You're very, very close.

I had captioned the photo as M1895, not 1885. You identified it as a short 1888 Commission Rifle (Karabiner 88).

Now that I've gone back to view Othias and Mae on C&RSenal,, however, I'd say it's a Gewehr 91 which is a Karabiner 88 with added stacking hook. See video at 27:29 for description:

I'm still learning about the military rifles of WW1.

 

[HWL]

...converted to a sporter....

Mauser M88 in 8mm Mauser Sporting Rifle

J bore, .318 dia, aka 8x57I

www.africahunting.com

HWL

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

....converted to a sporter....

Nice.

I should have recognized the trigger guard / magazine housing in the WW1 photo as being rather different than that of a Mannlicher ''95.
You were right about artillery. The gent in the photo was wearing an artillerist's pickelhaube with spherical 'spike'.

 

[HWL]

Nice.

I should have recognized the trigger guard / magazine housing in the WW1 photo as being rather different than that of a Mannlicher ''95.
You were right about artillery. The gent in the photo was wearing an artillerist's pickelhaube with spherical 'spike'.

I really was not sure,.... but i thought, it looks like "my gun",... a M88.

Nontheless, I appreciate your tenacity investigating such details.

Good job...

HWL

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

.

 

[MS 9x56]

You sure you weren’t a detective in another life?