My Mauser failed me

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It wasn’t modified to "snap over". It was just opened up to take the bigger diameter rim as are thousands of others. No, she betrayed me…..
She abandoned me…love don’t live here anymore….
Gumpy

@Grumpy gumpy
All is not lost mate. You still have a beautiful SINGLE SHOT.
Just place a couple of brass ferrels on the forend and insert a nice polished piece of 6mm dowel. After your shot just pretend you is Davey Crockett up end rifle, pull out dowel and insert in barrel with action open. Expel said cartridge, remove dowel and insert fresh cartridge and good to go.
Where's the problem. Stop being grumpy and be happy you still have a beautiful single shot
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Changing a 98 Mauser extractor is very easy. Can be done by anyone, even in the field.

I have yet to see a military 98 Mauser extractor that did NOT have the "defective" modifications described above. The extractor that was in my Czech vz.24 when I built it into 404J was clearly unmodified military and it had the "modifications" to claw face and forward end of blade to allow snap over. While it would not surprise me if military manuals advised against closing the bolt on a cartridge dropped in the chamber, it certainly would have been foolish to not machine the extractors to perform snap over in the event a soldier dropped a shell in the chamber either inadvertently or in the heat of a desperate firefight. My Springfield 03A3 has a similarly shaped extractor. I have been snapping over at the range with it since 1964. I didn't know any different. My dad used an 03A3 in combat and he showed me how it's done. I have practiced snap over on my 404 with dummy rounds at least several hundred times. Only issues were shitty RWS brass that was too short (head space incorrect) and has inconsistent rim thickness (both issues cured by switching to Hornady brass) Also, the extractor initially had too much spring tension. This finally became apparent when I could not remove the extractor from the bolt without prying it off with a screwdriver. Extractors are supposed to snap off with finger pressure. To adjust the tension I slightly reshaped the extractor blade by carefully bending it. This also greatly improved bolt face pickup of cartridges from the magazine. Of course, I had to significantly modify the 8mm claw face to accommodate much wider 404J rim. I followed Duane Weibe's instructions and reshaped the extractor to where it would just barely hold it on the bolt face when bolt is removed from the action. I agree with him: a dangerous game rifle is not a dangerous game rifle if it won't snap over on a cartridge dropped in the chamber.

If Mauser extractors were not supposed to snap over, why would the bolts and extractors be machined to make the claw of extractor release from the bolt in forward pressure (closing the bolt) so it can jump over the rim and then lock the extractor to the bolt when the bolt is drawn back to extract? Remove your bolt and you will see how the extractor moves ever so slightly forward and back. The keeper at the head of extractor is smaller than the groove in the bolt head. It's not sloppy machining. That keeper and the groove have a unique shape on the forward face, a hook if you will, that locks the extractor when the bolt is drawn back, but releases the extractor when it's pushed forward. The extractor spring tension was initially so severe that it was not allowing it to move and the extractor was staying locked to the keeper groove during loading which caused sloping shouldered 404 case to be shoved too far into the chamber. Snap over failed. Of course, this would not be an issue with belted cartridges. Then the extractor would either come unlocked or possibly break as belt on case forcibly maintains head space. Check your extractor spring tension!

Here's my 98 Mauser extractor.
View attachment 661584View attachment 661585View attachment 661586View attachment 661587
And here's a couple of military 98 Mauser extractors for sale on eBay right now.
View attachment 661588View attachment 661589View attachment 661590
Clearly these military Mauser extractors were designed to snap over.

@Ontario Hunter
Buying gun parts off E BAY is fine until you go to pay for it then it comes up CAN'T SHIP TO AUSTRALIA.
How do I know this, because I have tried. Dang can't even get a set of iron sights out of America to Australia.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My EX- beloved 8x68S is built on a Parker Hale receiver, who knows how old she is, I gave her a facelift, put a new tube on her with a nice fresh hole it it, cleaned her scratches, made her faded blue bits a dark lustrous blue/black, lovingly rubbed oil into her. And how does she treat me……



Gumpy

@Grumpy gumpy
I remember asking my wife if I could go hunting on our anniversary.
Her reply was, she turned my faded bits black and blue but it didn't have a lustrous finish. Nor did she lovingly rub oil into me when she finished.
Thing is after she finished she still loves me because I didn't go hunting.
Moral of the story
Your rifle still loves you, you just have to fix it
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

But what about the woozles? Don't you think they're dangerous, too?

@sgt_zim
Wozzles is related to Murphy , they probably caused the problem to make Murphy happy
Bob

 

[coreydb]

Just replace the extractor; either through a competent 'Smith or get a assembly/disassembly DVD on the rifle through AGI, and do a DIY.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Just replace the extractor; either through a competent 'Smith or get an assembly/disassembly DVD on the rifle through AGI, and do a DIY.

I built this rifle, I could dismantle blind folded. I found an extractor in my box of spares, I just need to fit it. Too many other things on the go
Gumpy

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Please do not take it the wrong way, but you do not have a Mauser. You have a Parker Hale Mauser-system clone. BIIIIIIGGGG difference...

Not a fault of yours, many many folks are confused on this issue and the characteristics of the original Mauser are very much misunderstood at large...

Paul Mauser (and the German Imperial Army) saw it as a liability to be able to close the action on a cartridge in the chamber. See above post.

I agree with their assessment.

Actually, the only deadly hunting accident that I personally and reliably know of (but was not involved in, it happened to a friend) involved a rifle handled by a group of folks in camp to check feeding, and that in the general melee ended up with its action closed on a live round that no one realized had been pushed in the chamber. When the handling around was finished, there was no round in the magazine or raceway, hence the rifle was assumed to be empty, the action was closed, the trigger was hit while the rifle was moved around the vehicle, the rifle fired, one woman died. Sure, a long series of gun handling safety violations took place, but an unmodified genuine original Mauser action would not have killed that woman. Each will draw their own conclusions...

As to whether an unmodified Mauser action is slower to reload an emergency round, see above post, the fact is, it is not. Try it on the run without looking at the rifle...

To add to your point about not dropping a round in the chamber to speed reload one shot, I believe my dad’s wartime production k98 has a follower that holds the bolt back when empty. Meaning to do such a maneuver you would have to depress the follower first.
I also agree that it’s quicker, and more reliable to click a round into the magazine than to toss one in. You just push down and back, I’ve done without looking hundreds of times on multiple rifles. Especially SKSs. Which are harder to top load than any Mauser.
I also think a well trained soldier could insert a five round clip fast enough to not worry about doing just one.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

To add to your point about not dropping a round in the chamber to speed reload one shot, I believe my dad’s wartime production k98 has a follower that holds the bolt back when empty. Meaning to do such a maneuver you would have to depress the follower first.
I also agree that it’s quicker, and more reliable to click a round into the magazine than to toss one in. You just push down and back, I’ve done without looking hundreds of times on multiple rifles. Especially SKSs. Which are harder to top load than any Mauser.
I also think a well trained soldier could insert a five round clip fast enough to not worry about doing just one.

@Wyatt Smith
The M17 & P14 are the same. In the last shot the bolt can't be closed unless the mag follower is depressed or it is reloaded in the mag
A lot of people grind the follower down at the rear so it will close on an empty mag.
The military mausers unmodified that I have come across are the same.
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Wyatt Smith
The M17 & P14 are the same. In the last shot the bolt can't be closed unless the mag follower is depressed or it is reloaded in the mag
A lot of people grind the follower down at the rear so it will close on an empty mag.
The military mausers unmodified that I have come across are the same.
Bob

Yes, and the followers on Springfield also blocked the bolt. Dad said many GIs, armorers, and snipers modified the followers so they didn't block on empty magazines. Note that the extractors on 98 Mauser, 1917/P14, and Springfield have beveled face on the claws. There is no other reason to bevel the face of extractor except to relieve during snap over. If memory serves me correctly, stripper clips for Springfield held five rounds (I should dig them out and check). If soldiers wanted to fully load the rifle to six rounds, they had to depress the full magazine, partially close the bolt, drop a shell in the chamber, close the bolt, and snap over on the round in the chamber.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yes, and the followers on Springfield also blocked the bolt. Dad said many GIs, armorers, and snipers modified the followers so they didn't block on empty magazines. Note that the extractors on 98 Mauser, 1917/P14, and Springfield have beveled face on the claws. There is no other reason to bevel the face of extractor except to relieve during snap over. If memory serves me correctly, stripper clips for Springfield held five rounds (I should dig them out and check). If soldiers wanted to fully load the rifle to six rounds, they had to depress the full magazine, partially close the bolt, drop a shell in the chamber, close the bolt, and snap over on the round in the chamber.

@Ontario Hunter
Don't try and get the extractor to snap over the 303 Brit case in a P14. It just ain't going to happen in my experience.
Bob

 

[One Day...]

Ummm, no.
It is a military Mauser action. It is one of the numerous actions that were "repurposed " after WW2, they had most of their markings removed, it still has faint waffenamts on the side of the receiver and the bottom metal that came with it still has one inside. Parker hale didn’t make their clones, as you put it, till later on
Gumpy

In this case, apologies for the various hypotheses, I wish I had had all the subsequent precisions earlier, but what is important is to to get them at one point or the other.

In your case: genuine Mauser action, not modifying the extractor, not snapping the extractor over a cartridge in the chamber, etc., THEN, extractor metal fatigue is likely the cause, as you probably know. It happens, as you certainly know...

One last precision would be interesting: it would be the date of manufacture of the action (presuming that the extractor ir original). It is well know that quality of material degraded markedly toward the end of WWII. This would likely make the metal (especially spring metal) more prone to fatigue.

In any case, replacing the extractor with a genuine Mauser extractor will restore the rifle to full reliability, always keeping in mind that part breakage can happen with ANY rifle, including the vaunted Mauser K98. Such is life...

As to whether a Mauser part can fail, of course it can, all things made by man can, but I would argue that this does not affect the Mauser design's reliability reputation. I do not think that anyone in their right mind would ever think that Paul Mauser was exempt from materials physics

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter
Don't try and get the extractor to snap over the 303 Brit case in a P14. It just ain't going to happen in my experience.
Bob

Well, Bob, I went and dug out my late wife's grandfather's P14 to test your hypothesis.

First, I removed the bolt to look at the extractor face. It is quite robust compared to 98 Mauser and Springfield 03A3. But it definitely retains the same concave feature on the face of the claw indicating possible snap over capability. Clearly, the pristene condition of the bluing on the concave surface of the extractor would seem to indicate it had seldom, if ever, seen any snap over.

Digging deeper in the root cellar where most of my useless gun stuff is stashed I found three boxes of CIL 303 shells, probably 1940s vintage. Okay, give it a go ... but carefully. Lo and behold this clearly unmodified P14 snapped over so slick that even with my hearing aids turned up I couldn't hear the distinctive "click" when extractor jumps the rim. But jump the rim it did and ejected flawlessly ... twenty times consecutively.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

In this case, apologies for the various hypotheses, I wish I had had all the subsequent precisions earlier, but what is important is to to get them at one point or the other.

In your case: genuine Mauser action, not modifying the extractor, not snapping the extractor over a cartridge in the chamber, etc., THEN, extractor metal fatigue is likely the cause, as you probably know. It happens, as you certainly know...

One last precision would be interesting: it would be the date of manufacture of the action (presuming that the extractor ir original). It is well know that quality of material degraded markedly toward the end of WWII. This would likely make the metal (especially spring metal) more prone to fatigue.

In any case, replacing the extractor with a genuine Mauser extractor will restore the rifle to full reliability, always keeping in mind that part breakage can happen with ANY rifle, including the vaunted Mauser K98. Such is life...

As to whether a Mauser part can fail, of course it can, all things made by man can, but I would argue that this does not affect the Mauser design's reliability reputation. I do not think that anyone in their right mind would ever think that Paul Mauser was exempt from materials physics

Parker Hale used to select older actions to build on, 30’s to early 40’s, or post war FN, they would re-heat treat if necessary (there is an hardness test dimple on it under the ring and recoil lug) and give them a "good going over". The extractor could be well used or new old stock. The cracked face is quite crystalline in structure , so who knows how old it is, I got it as a bare receiver so it’s early history is unknown. And I know what you mean by the late war actions, as far as I’m concerned any German action from 43 to 45 is a wall hanger only. I’ve heard stories about slave labour in the factories not heat treating them at all or not tempering them after heat treatment
Gumpy

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well, Bob, I went and dug out my late wife's grandfather's P14 to test your hypothesis.
View attachment 662727
First, I removed the bolt to look at the extractor face. It is quite robust compared to 98 Mauser and Springfield 03A3. But it definitely retains the same concave feature on the face of the claw indicating possible snap over capability. Clearly, the pristene condition of the bluing on the concave surface of the extractor would seem to indicate it had seldom, if ever, seen any snap over.
View attachment 662728
Digging deeper in the root cellar where most of my useless gun stuff is stashed I found three boxes of CIL 303 shells, probably 1940s vintage. Okay, give it a go ... but carefully. Lo and behold this clearly unmodified P14 snapped over so slick that even with my hearing aids turned up I couldn't hear the distinctive "click" when extractor jumps the rim. But jump the rim it did and ejected flawlessly ... twenty times consecutively.
View attachment 662729

@Ontario Hunter
That's interesting. I'm not saying you are wrong but my P14 won't snap over the rim of my 25-303 for some reason.
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter
That's interesting. I'm not saying you are wrong but my P14 won't snap over the rim of my 25-303 for some reason.
Bob

Let's see what your bolt face looks like. You may have some crap accumulated in the extractor race? Mine is definitely British made by all the proof marks. No maker specified so presumably neither Remington or Winchester. I checked my bolt face diameter and is very precise. 404 rim is just barely larger than 303 and I can manually force 404 onto the bolt face. But very tight fit! Just for giggles I slipped the bolt back into receiver with a 404 dummy round captured on the bolt face. Dropped the floorplate so I could get the blunted follower out of the way and then gently closed the bolt as far as I could (about halfway). I wanted to see if the action had enough room to eject 404. It does. Looks like this could be a relatively easy build. Remove a tiny bit from the bolt face (a very tiny bit), switch to longer M17 mag box and reshape as needed (they are stamped metal so easily modified), and reshape loading ramp and feeding rails as needed. Seems the biggest obstacle is getting rid of those damn ears for rear sight. And rebating the receiver so it will release the barrel.

 

[roklok]

According to Frank de Haas' book the 1917 and P14 Enfields are designed to easily snap over the rim of a chambered cartridge. This matches my experience. Quote from De Haas about the P14 " The extractor has a narrow hook and this hook is well beveled so that the extractor will easily slip over the rim of a cartridge that is chambered ahead of the extractor."

 

[roklok]

@Ontario Hunter
That's interesting. I'm not saying you are wrong but my P14 won't snap over the rim of my 25-303 for some reason.
Bob

I am assuming it was rebarreled, being it is a .25 caliber. It sounds to me that the recess in breech on new barrel wasn't cut correctly to give the extractor room to move "outboard" far enough to snap over rim.

 

[rookhawk]

My 8x68S failed to extract a fired cartridge last night, looked at it this morning and the end of the extractor claw had broken off. It appears to have fractured. It’s most disappointing, I mean if I had been facing a charging rabbit instead of a goat, I could have been mauled….. so much for CRF reliability in the face of dangerous game…. Or it could have been that I was driving around in a landcruiser instead of hanging upside down from a tree by my toes. Now to find another extractor and fit it
Gumpy

Sorry to hear that. The good news is that any old Nazi-era 98 extractor can be fitted to that for a whopping $15 in parts. That is the beauty of the mauser action, you may be down, but you will certainly not be out!

 

[rdog]

K

 

[rdog]

Australia has banned the import of gun checkering tools the F###t politicians must think the terrorists are going to

checker their AKs, but they import Palestinians by the plane load. any product with gun in its description
is evil.

@Ontario Hunter
Buying gun parts off E BAY is fine until you go to pay for it then it comes up CAN'T SHIP TO AUSTRALIA.
How do I know this, because I have tried. Dang can't even get a set of iron sights out of America to Australia.
Bob