Politics

[mdwest]

Scott is hardly a sycophant

key detail in that video that shouldn't get lost in the discussion..

there are actually 2 deals on the table.. an economic deal.. and a peace deal..

the economic deal is what is important to Trump.. which cannot be realized without a peace deal in place..


I fully recognize Fox's bias.. its often just as bad as MSNBC's.. but this clip offers some insight I was unaware of previously as to why there might be a bit of personal dislike and conflict between multiple members of the Trump Administration and Zelensky, which are likely influencing attitudes and behaviors in discussions and negotiations..

 

[Datchew]

Normally, usually, most of the time national interests eventually triumph over every other issue or emotion (sadly, there are also fairly numerous examples where they didn't). A long term economic partnership with the US is in both nation's interests. In many ways it would offer Ukraine more security than NATO membership. Again, I would offer Saudi Arabia as a prime example. For the US it would be a profitable arrangement while putting a soft halt to Russian ambitions in the area.

Both are stubborn leaders. After all, Zelensky hasn't been particularly frightened of Putin and his minions shooting at him, so I suspect having Trump yell at him or Vance try to lecture him is barely off putting. But it is in his interests to cut this deal. Hopefully, the men and women behind the scenes can pull it off.

Very well put.

 

[Tanks]

So then why did Zelensky even bother to making the trip?

My thinking, and I might be wrong, was that he was hoping to tie the two together. Instead, he walked into an ambush.

Personally, I think he is in a very hard place as the US has shown itself an unreliable and a mercenary partner. Trump is looking for a win with mineral rights and a win with Russia regardless of what happens to Ukraine.

The ideal situation would have been a mineral deal while guaranteeing the flow of arms to Ukraine. That would have put enough pressure on Putin to be reasonable in his demands.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

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Bessent tried to get Zelenskyy to sign away the mineral wealth of Ukraine while agreeing to a "peace" brokered by the US and Russia where Russia dictates the terms. Bessent admitted as much on Bloomberg.

I'd be disrespectful as well.

If the bank was about to repo your ranch and you wanted to stay, my guess is you’d sell the minerals.

 

[Red Leg]

If the bank was about to repo your ranch and you wanted to stay, my guess is you’d sell the minerals.

Except the Russians are a long way from foreclosing.

 

[CJW]

I’m many things

Cool is definitely not one of them

Seriously though, we in the UK have to careful what we write in Starmer’s Britain

I understand. It's an interesting thing to watch.

 

[WAB]

I wish Trump would leave this negotiation to Rubio. He actually acts like an adult. Vance went way down in my estimation today.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

Except the Russians are a long way from foreclosing.

Not if Z alienates his benefactor.

 

[Red Leg]

Not if Z alienates his benefactor.

Except we no longer are. We essentially gave up that role when the republican house cut off supplies early last year. The Biden administration pushed a bit more across in its closing weeks when the funding was finally approved, but Ukraine has been largely dependent on Europe for almost a year.

 

[Tanks]

Except the Russians are a long way from foreclosing.

According to Vance and Trump math Russia has more men to waste so Ukraine can't win. Guess they have been ignoring the last 3 years.

One thing about Trump's thinking based on the latest comments. He stated that Putin falsely got accused of election interference in 2016 and falsely got accused of the Hunter Biden laptop.

He is looking at Putin as a kindred spirit, go figure.

 

[Altitude sickness]

So perhaps we bring back Biden to negotiate for Trump. Since it worked so well for the last four years. And just start slugging it out again and flying pallet loads of arms and money.

Zelinskyy now knows that the negotiator is willing to walk away from the deal. that’s half of a negotiation as everybody here well knows.
I think you learned that when you sold your first bike if you aren’t willing to walk away from a deal, you’re gonna get a bad deal pretty much every time.

Again, let’s not lose sight of whose weakness allowed this war to start. Obama.

He should be called back into town and made to fix it himself.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

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Except we no longer are. We essentially gave up that role when the republican house cut off supplies early last year. The Biden administration pushed a bit more across in its closing weeks when the funding was finally approved, but Ukraine has been largely dependent on Europe for almost a year.

So your position is that they haven’t been provided any assistance for the last year? Because that’s simply not true.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

My thinking, and I might be wrong, was that he was hoping to tie the two together. Instead, he walked into an ambush.

Personally, I think he is in a very hard place as the US has shown itself an unreliable and a mercenary partner. Trump is looking for a win with mineral rights and a win with Russia regardless of what happens to Ukraine.

The ideal situation would have been a mineral deal while guaranteeing the flow of arms to Ukraine. That would have put enough pressure on Putin to be reasonable in his demands.

You may be right in regards to tie the two deals together. But as you said he knew he wasn't going to get that from his earlier meeting with Bessent in Kyiv. So when he opens up in front of the camera like he did, it then makes me wonder if he wasn't intending to embarrass Trump the way he did. That's not going to happen with Trump to be certain.

I'm not pleased with either Vance's or Trump's behavior today either. But if you come asking for help from the POTUS and then slap him in the face publicly, much lesss in private, that is not going to play well.

Trump/Vance are responsible for how they behave but so is Zelensky.

 

[MLindsay]

I can tell you what is a very common thought among many Americans, FUCK Ukraine. How many billions have we sent to that dip shit country? We don't even have an idea of where all the equipment or money has gone. Exactly how much has all the European countries actually given? It would seem if you looked on a map Ukraine and the Russian forces are way closer to them than us.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

 

[meigsbucks]

I generally don’t post to this thread. Most of you are far more informed and experienced in this area. However, my take on today’s “negotiations” is this:
The public squabbling was unbecoming of world leaders. However, Trump was correct in that Zelenskyy doesn’t have the cards. Making the mineral deal won’t give him a straight flush, but will give him two pair.
IMO, the bottom line is the US gets the mineral rights and Ukraine and Russia get a cease fire. As far as security going forward, that would need to be ironed out in the future between Zelenskyy and Putin. However, in the interim the US civilian presence would offer some buffer.

 

[Brent in Az]

Jiminy Christmas......Some people around here seem to be really unhinged about the whole thing.......

 

[Russ16]

I can tell you what is a very common thought among many Americans, FUCK Ukraine. How many billions have we sent to that dip shit country? We don't even have an idea of where all the equipment or money has gone. Exactly how much has all the European countries actually given? It would seem if you looked on a map Ukraine and the Russian forces are way closer to them than us.

I don’t know anyone who thinks that everyone I know believes Russia is a massive global threat and should be opposed at every turn.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

Scott is hardly a sycophant

I just heard a news report citing sources in the Ukrainian parliament that the minerals deal had already been voted on in the parliament, they just needed someone at the ministerial level to execute the agreement.
IF THAT IS TRUE, that’s going to be a long flight home for Zelensky.

 

[TTundra]

I expect this type of negotiation has happened countless times behind closed doors over the last few centuries, just being public now is what dismays so many.

I for one was interested to see it unfold. Truly no different than contentious business deals, albeit millions of lives on the line rather than money and jobs, which is why it has me asking: Why did Zelensky not know what cards he has? From a negotiation perspective surveying the situation for which I know I'm ignorant to most of the specifics, but at least know you NEED a deal and to show the face that will get the deal done.

His ego is not larger than Trumps and he was foolish to attempt anything other than gratitude especially him having such history with Trump and knowing what he does. Ego's do a lot of things, start wars and ruin deals for starts, just no place for them without holding the right cards.