Politics

[deewayne2003]

listen to the Shapiro link posted on the previous page..

those values being listed as tariffs being charged to the US arent actually tariff values at all.. they are based on a formula that calculates trade deficits, tariffs, and other unrelated items..

He uses Korea as an example where the average tariff is less than 1%.. we have a free trade agreement in place with South Korea..

They come up with a 50% value to assign to SK because the trade deficit is so huge between the two countries.. in a nutshell Americans buy a crap ton load of Korean stuff and Koreans don't buy a lot of American stuff.. and they want it to apply to "tariffs".. (which is wrong)..

Which is the same debate that's gone back and forth with @Tubby’s Canteen .. who cares that Canadians buy more American stuff than Americans buy Canadian stuff? Its a completely different argument and really shouldn't be applied.. its apples to oranges..

Trump is now making the same incorrect argument..

The even worse case Shapiro presented was the "tariff" value placed on Madagascar.. which is largely based on the huge trade deficit we have with Madagascar..

Well no shit.. is anyone actually surprised that we buy more stuff from Madagascar than they buy from us? The average annual wage in Madagascar is $506... they cant afford American made stuff.. but American consumers love Madagascar vanilla, cotton, sugar, coffee, and shellfish.. which are all very affordable.. We're consumers.. and they arent... so we buy a lot of their stuff that we want, and they don't buy a lot of our stuff that they cant afford..

Why is that a bad thing?

And why would that motivate us to put a 43% tariff on the stuff they sell us.. fully knowing they arent buying any of our stuff anyway?


Im all for true "reciprocal" tariffs.. if its fair and reasonable for Country XXXX.. then its fair and reasonable for the US as well.. other countries don't get to protect their industries and then cry when the US protects its industries.. the argument "you're bigger! you have a bigger economy! etc" doesn't fly.. every country on the planet has the opportunity to grow their economies and population any way they see fit.. If your country hasn't managed itself as well, that's a problem created by your country.. its not a problem my country needs to resolve.. If the other country doesn't want to bow to a reciprocal tariff, then they need to come to the table with something else of strategic or economic value to trade..

But these arent "reciprocal" tariffs at all.. they're in many cases actually nonsense..

I see the tariffs as a way of counter acting several other issues at hand such as China's currency manipulation that has been an issue for well over a decade; as well as their manipulation of their GDP by counting construction based on completed projects instead of sold/acquired as we do in the USA.

This is why you have complete cities in China that are empty, their just building for the sake of manipulating their numbers.

This South African born and raised man lived in China for 14 years and reports on the reality of the Chinese economy as well as their state of society.

Construction GPD for China
2020 11%
2021 25.7%
However by 2024 it had fallen to 6.8%

So now China is moving onto ship building...

Point being, their are many economic issues/manipulations that are going on world wide and I see the tariffs as a "low hanging fruit" in an attempt to balance manipulations that otherwise not much can be done.

 

[mdwest]

Yes I imagine penguins have told a great many lies and committed a great many trade injustices. Their probably manufacturing fentanyl and smuggling terrorists as we speak.
View attachment 676421

More emotional response over nonsense..

Trump is tariffing penguins..

So what?

Do you really believe Canada has zero to do with why the US - Canada relationship is where it is? Which is clearly what bothers you..

What does the US's relationship with the McDonalds Island have to do with the US - Canada relationship?

It proves Trump is an asshole?

Not too many people here are going to refute that.. certainly not me.. I have said he is an asshole several times.. and I've also been pretty clear that the tariffs revealed yesterday are nonsensical..

That said.. Was Trudeau not an asshole of another flavor? Carney not an asshole of yet another flavor? Ford not an asshole of another flavor? Freeland perhaps the ugliest asshole of all the Canadian assholes?

Canada played a critical role in getting us here.. and will play a critical role in getting itself out of the mess it is finding itself in.. or it will suffer the consequences otherwise.. no different than the US played a critical role in getting us here as well, and will play a critical role in getting itself out, etc..etc..

The difference is the assholes that got us here (every President post Reagan) and the assholes that got you here (every Prime Minister from Pierre Trudeau forward) are different than the assholes we now need to get us out of here (Trump, Carne/Poilievre, etc)..

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Wild to that Israel preemptively dropped all tariffs to 0% and then we slap them with 17%(?)!?

 

[lwaters]

Wild to that Israel preemptively dropped all tariffs to 0% and then we slap them with 17%(?)!?

Why not they big muchers.

 

[Wheels]

View attachment 676419

Stellantis has had problems including profits down 50% last year, sales down 20% last year, fired/resigned CEO, inventory stacking up, vehicle designs the market doesn't like. But lets wait till tariffs are announced and blame it on that.

 

[deewayne2003]

Wild to that Israel preemptively dropped all tariffs to 0% and then we slap them with 17%(?)!?

There are issues at hand with Israel, the only thing that every president since Ford has agreed on is that Israel should stick to their 1967 borders; but Israel has/had manufacturing going on in the west bank that was illegal and exploitative to the local workforce which was paid 3rd world wages while producing high quality products that were illegally brought into the limits of recognized Israel and then exported to USA tariff/tax free.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Why not the big muchers.

Please explain.. They get a significant amount of aid from us. Just like a lot of other countries.. We most likely get a lot more out of our relationship with Israel than we do with a lot of others…

There are issues at hand with Israel, the only thing that every president since Ford has agreed on is that Israel should stick to their 1967 borders; but Israel has/had manufacturing going on in the west bank that was illegal and exploitative to the local workforce which was paid 3rd world wages while producing high quality products that were illegally brought into the limits of recognized Israel and then exported to USA tariff/tax free.

If that was the reasoning then fine.. But it wasn’t. They were tariffed for the same idiotic reason everyone else was and it doesn’t make sense. I’m fine with some tariffs if they have a legitimate reason or strategy behind them but these don’t.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

More emotional response over nonsense..

Trump is tariffing penguins..

So what?

Do you really believe Canada has zero to do with why the US - Canada relationship is where it is? Which is clearly what bothers you..

What does the US's relationship with the McDonalds Island have to do with the US - Canada relationship?

It proves Trump is an asshole?

Not too many people here are going to refute that.. certainly not me.. I have said he is an asshole several times.. and I've also been pretty clear that the tariffs revealed yesterday are nonsensical..

That said.. Was Trudeau not an asshole of another flavor? Carney not an asshole of yet another flavor? Ford not an asshole of another flavor? Freeland perhaps the ugliest asshole of all the Canadian assholes?

Canada played a critical role in getting us here.. and will play a critical role in getting itself out of the mess it is finding itself in.. or it will suffer the consequences otherwise.. no different than the US played a critical role in getting us here as well, and will play a critical role in getting itself out, etc..etc..

The difference is the assholes that got us here (every President post Reagan) and the assholes that got you here (every Prime Minister from Pierre Trudeau forward) are different than the assholes we now need to get us out of here (Trump, Carne/Poilievre, etc)..

I completely agree Canada has suffered from poor leadership for the majority of the past 65 years. Our biggest trade crime that I can see is complacency in the status quo and not actively seeking out new trade partners previously. Likewise we should develop our own natural resources instead of selling raw exports.

I maintain my previous position if there was any common sense in the world the finance ministers of the effected countries would force the u.s. to deal with them as a class instead of individuals. Id even invite the penguins no matter how nefarious they are.

 

[revturbo9967]

If they want to kill manufacturing in the US, this is a great way to do it. I’m in machine tool sales, and 85% of machine tool builders are in Japan. Non of this equipment will be made on US soil, so it will only hurt our manufacturing growth if they can’t come to an agreement.

This has already affected our equipment inventory here in the states. Next week will be far worse if it continues.

 

[Red Leg]

If I understand this correctly, and it is absolutely possible that Trumpanomics is beyond my comprehension, and taking Vietnam as an example, we sell roughly 13 billion a year to them and they sell roughly 136 billion to us. So, as “punishment” we are going to charge ourselves a 50% penalty or tax on everything our businesses import from them.

Should be a rock solid platform for next year. Did anyone else notice Russia was left off the list?

 

[mdwest]

I maintain my previous position if there was any common sense in the world the finance ministers of the effected countries would force the u.s. to deal with them as a class instead of individuals. Id even invite the penguins no matter how nefarious they are.

That would be a brilliant move..

I think Trump is likely counting on the fact that just like the US and Canada are plagued with assholes and incompetents in senior government positions, all the rest of the world is too..

Every country from Burkina Faso to Belgium is going to think they should be in charge and dictating the terms and conditions of the coalition.. It would take a year or two to manage to get anything together worth executing on.. and by then the global economy would be in ruin..

I think Trump is of the belief that not all, but many countries will cave quickly (within 6 months).. and those that hold out will suffer lasting negative results that will take decades to recover from.. while those that cave quickly will become larger scale trading partners and will "prosper" (while the US prospers greatest)..

No doubt he is operating somewhere between bully and a bull in a china shop..

The question is will it work? or does the entire world suffer?

Quite literally no one is coming out of this unscathed.. to include both historical friends and adversaries of the US..

 

[mdwest]

If I understand this correctly, and it is absolutely possible that Trumpanomics is beyond my comprehension, and taking Vietnam as an example, we sell roughly 13 billion a year to them and they sell roughly 136 billion to us. So, as “punishment” we are going to charge ourselves a 50% penalty or tax on everything our businesses import from them. Let’s then multiply that by many fold.

Should be a rock solid platform next year. Did anyone else notice Russia was left off the list?

I think what he is counting on is Americans wont purchase from Vietnam anymore.. if a Tommy Bahama shirt made in Vietnam now costs the same as a Tommy Bahama shit made in VIrginia.. we'll buy the Virginia made shirt (albeit at 50% greater cost despite where it is made)..

Which then creates US jobs rather than Vietnamese jobs, etc..etc..

OR.. Vietnam, in an effort to salvage those $136B in sales will reduce its tariffs.. then we reduce ours.. and we end up paying less for that Tommy Bahama shirt than we paid last year..


Not saying I agree...

And there is zero doubt in my mind that even if he is successful, we're definitely going to be paying more in the short term no matter which of those scenarios play out..

just saying that's what I understand his strategy to be..

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

That would be a brilliant move..

I think Trump is likely counting on the fact that just like the US and Canada are plagued with assholes and incompetents in senior government positions, all the rest of the world is too..

Every country from Burkina Faso to Belgium is going to think they should be in charge and dictating the terms and conditions of the coalition.. It would take a year or two to manage to get anything together worth executing on.. and by then the global economy would be in ruin..

I think Trump is of the belief that not all, but many countries will cave quickly (within 6 months).. and those that hold out will suffer lasting negative results that will take decades to recover from.. while those that cave quickly will become larger scale trading partners and will "prosper" (while the US prospers greatest)..

No doubt he is operating somewhere between bully and a bull in a china shop..

The question is will it work? or does the entire world suffer?

Quite literally no one is coming out of this unscathed.. to include both historical friends and adversaries of the US..

A trade negotiation coalition if unable to reach favourable terms with trump could simply stall negotiations in bureaucracy long enough to likely cost him the mid terms and the republicans the next election when he has nothing to show for the fiscal pain he’s caused.

 

[lwaters]

Please explain.. They get a significant amount of aid from us. Just like a lot of other countries.. We most likely get a lot more out of our relationship with Israel than we do with a lot of others…

If that was the reasoning then fine.. But it wasn’t. They were tariffed for the same idiotic reason everyone else was and it doesn’t make sense. I’m fine with some tariffs if they have a legitimate reason or strategy behind them but these don’t.

The whole world has been ripping us off Isreal included. Our growth will now be like nothing anybody has seen before. It will happen very quickly. It will be like nothing anybody has seen before.

 

[revturbo9967]

I think what he is counting on is Americans wont purchase from Vietnam anymore.. if a Tommy Bahama shirt made in Vietnam now costs the same as a Tommy Bahama shit made in VIrginia.. we'll buy the Virginia made shirt (albeit at 50% greater cost despite where it is made)..

Which then creates US jobs rather than Vietnamese jobs, etc..etc..

OR.. Vietnam, in an effort to salvage those $136B in sales will reduce its tariffs.. then we reduce ours.. and we end up paying less for that Tommy Bahama shirt than we paid last year..


Not saying I agree...

And there is zero doubt in my mind that even if he is successful, we're definitely going to be paying more in the short term no matter which of those scenarios play out..

just saying that's what I understand his strategy to be..

A market correction is needed but I think this isn’t the best way. The issue is that much of the overseas production needed for our growth will never be made on US ground. It just won’t happen. A shirt is one thing, a 3 million dollar lathe that machines drive shafts for an air craft carrier, is a little different.

 

[Tamboti]

Did anyone else notice Russia was left off the list?

 

[cls]

So explain to the unwashed, the US has a 4% unemployment rate, of that number maybe 2% actually want to work. I guess you are bringing all these manufacturing jobs back so you can employ all the illegals.....

 

[Jeff505]

Yes I imagine penguins have told a great many lies and committed a great many trade injustices. Their probably manufacturing fentanyl and smuggling terrorists as we speak.
View attachment 676421

Penguins are not the cute cuddly tuxedo wearing birds that they are often portrayed as. I can remember watching a documentary in the 60s that was aired by the BBC, this is back when the BBC was a legitimate organization. Giant penguins with stinging tentacles were clearly portrayed.As we probably agree on more things than not let’s stop the finger pointing and try to get along. We will teach you how to make real bacon (Canadian bacon is ham) and maybe some of us can head up your way and club some baby seals or something like that. Stay safe my Canadian friends.

 

[Red Leg]

https://www.wsj.com/economy/trade/trump-tariff-math-calculations-explained-ba47bfde

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

The whole world has been ripping us off Isreal included. Our growth will now be like nothing anybody has seen before. It will happen very quickly. It will be like nothing anybody has seen before.

Is that a direct Trump quote lol. Sounds just like him. I sincerely doubt the growth will be there if these tariffs last.. Hopefully they’re extremely short lived