Redneck 40 caliber?

[steve white]

Just pondering....if you take a 375 H&H and feed it 350 gr bear claws or Stewart High Performers, would the additional width of the bear claws wound channel, driven by the additional mass of the 350 grain (380 in the case of the Stewart?) duplicate the wound channel and momentum of a 450/400??

 

[Aaron N]

@IvW boasts about the devastation of 350g(?) rhinos in a 375.

 

[IvW]

With Rhino bullet you will get 0.9375(2.5×)expansion impressive.
The 340gr is the ultimate the 380gr is excellent for buffalo

 

[BeeMaa]

I've heard that the 375H&H loaded with 350 grain bullets to 2400 fps will hit DG with absolute AUTHORITY. Dr Kevin (Doctari) Robertson spoke very highly of this caliber loaded with premium softs up to 380 grains for it's penetration and expansion.

I believe @One Day... did exactly this on his last safari, but he would need to chime in to confirm.

 

[steve white]

I've heard that the 375H&H loaded with 350 grain bullets to 2400 fps will hit DG with absolute AUTHORITY. Dr Kevin (Doctari) Robertson spoke very highly of this caliber loaded with premium softs up to 380 grains for it's penetration and expansion.

I believe @One Day... did exactly this on his last safari, but he would need to chime in to confirm.

AND the 2400 fps velocity is higher than the 450/400, correct?

 

[steve white]

Has anyone measured the Stewart/Rhino/bear claws after expansion and compared to the 450/400 after its' expansion to postulate size of wound channel? In Kevin Robertson's book The Most Dangerous Game, the Stewart looked massively wide--wider than the bear claws.

 

[BeeMaa]

AND the 2400 fps velocity is higher than the 450/400, correct?

The 450/400 400 grain DGX factory loadings from Hornady move at a published 2050 fps with an energy of 3732 lb-ft. I believe they need to keep the speed down because of the age of some of the actions and the pressures they were proofed to.

The 375H&H with a 350 grain load at 2400 fps yield 4477 lb-ft of energy.

The numbers are just math, field results are what really matter.

 

[hoytcanon]

The 450/400 400 grain DGX factory loadings from Hornady move at a published 2050 fps with an energy of 3732 lb-ft. I believe they need to keep the speed down because of the age of some of the actions and the pressures they were proofed to.

The 375H&H with a 350 grain load at 2400 fps yield 4477 lb-ft of energy.

The numbers are just math, field results are what really matter.

Math shows up in the field, given a proper bullet design.

 

[steve white]

The 450/400 400 grain DGX factory loadings from Hornady move at a published 2050 fps with an energy of 3732 lb-ft. I believe they need to keep the speed down because of the age of some of the actions and the pressures they were proofed to.

The 375H&H with a 350 grain load at 2400 fps yield 4477 lb-ft of energy.

The numbers are just math, field results are what really matter.

Correct, and hence my request for momentum and width of wound channel. Frontal area differentiates different cartridges utilizing similar bullet construction--but the Stewart and bear claw have expansion of the petals that far exceeds other bullets of the same caliber. Weight and velocity together measure momentum and to an extent, penetration.
Another way to address the thread is, is the wider expanding, heavier bullet actually an upgrade from normal ammunition?
I suppose one could apply this to other calibers, as well, in terms of how to achieve an upgrade.
Final query--will the recoil be excessive when upgrading. We all know a 20 ga firing a 1 1/4 ounce load kicks harder than a 12 a firing the same, due to pressures, etc. The 450/400 is known to be relatively comfortable in recoil--maybe an upgraded 375 less so?

 

[Tom Leoni]

Hi, Steve--recoil measurement depends on four factors mainly: firearm weight, bullet weight, bullet velocity and powder-charge weight. Pressure itself does not directly factor into the equation.

(Felt recoil also depends on gun fit, recoil-reducing devices, etc., but that's another ball of wax.)

So to answer your question "will the recoil be excessive when upgrading," the answer is: it depends. You can estimate a comparison between a 300gr bullet traveling at 2,500 f/s, a 350gr bullet traveling at 2,350 and .400-400's 400gr bullet traveling at 2,000 f/s. You'll also need rifle weight and powder charge to get an accurate number.

Use a page like this one to do so: https://shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

 

[BeeMaa]

Has anyone measured the Stewart/Rhino/bear claws after expansion and compared to the 450/400 after its' expansion to postulate size of wound channel? In Kevin Robertson's book The Most Dangerous Game, the Stewart looked massively wide--wider than the bear claws.

In order to get an accurate measure of this, each of these bullets would need to be fired at the same speed into ballistic media gel at least three to five times to get an average for each bullet expansion.

Field results will vary with speed at impact due to different distances, shot angle, animal composition and bullet path (hitting bone vs muscle vs lungs...etc). Not to mention that many bullets are not recovered, even on broadside shots. Too many variables for an accurate clinical comparison.

The good news is that the Rhino solid shank is a premium expanding bullet that is trusted by many PH's. The pictures I've seen of recovered bullets bear a striking resemblance to recovered Swift A-Frames, Norma Oryx and the Federal TBBC. And it's no wonder seeing as all of these bullets use similar construction, materials and have the jacket bonded to the core. Ascertaining the difference could be splitting hairs.

I would have confidence that any of the above bullets at an appropriate speed for the given cartridge would perform as advertised.

I've not heard of the Stewart bullet but I believe @PeteG has some experience. If he doesn't chime in, send a PM.

 

[Certus]

This is the way I reckon the .378 Weatherby should be loaded. Slow it down a bit but up the bullet weight.

 

[BeeMaa]

This is the way I reckon the .378 Weatherby should be loaded. Slow it down a bit but up the bullet weight.

The .375 caliber is a popular one with many options from near anemic (375WIN) to the speed kings of 375RUM and 378WBY.

Driving a 300 grain bullet at nearly 3000 fps has it's drawbacks in the form of fast and hard recoil. It's said that the 378WBY kills on both ends. Slowing the 300 grain bullet down to a more reasonable 2400 fps would be an excellent way to mitigate some of that. However if you increase the bullet weight to 350 grains and keep the speed at 2400 fps the felt recoil will go up again.

And in truth what you would be doing is going the long way around to get 375H&H ballistics. Wouldn't it be easier to just start with a 375H&H and go from there?

The 378WBY is a speciality cartridge for those addicted to speed (and a little pain) like Roy Weatherby. Loading it down to 375H&H levels is like buying a Porsche 911 and installing a VW 2.0 diesel engine. OK, maybe that's a little extreme but you get my point.

 

[Certus]

I do get your point, but it would also be lower pressure than loading up the 375. Though I don’t actually know what speeds the 375 can throw 350’s.

 

[PeteG]

In order to get an accurate measure of this, each of these bullets would need to be fired at the same speed into ballistic media gel at least three to five times to get an average for each bullet expansion.

Field results will vary with speed at impact due to different distances, shot angle, animal composition and bullet path (hitting bone vs muscle vs lungs...etc). Not to mention that many bullets are not recovered, even on broadside shots. Too many variables for an accurate clinical comparison.

The good news is that the Rhino solid shank is a premium expanding bullet that is trusted by many PH's. The pictures I've seen of recovered bullets bear a striking resemblance to recovered Swift A-Frames, Norma Oryx and the Federal TBBC. And it's no wonder seeing as all of these bullets use similar construction, materials and have the jacket bonded to the core. Ascertaining the difference could be splitting hairs.

I would have confidence that any of the above bullets at an appropriate speed for the given cartridge would perform as advertised.

I've not heard of the Stewart bullet but I believe @PeteG has some experience. If he doesn't chime in, send a PM.

I have used Stewart’s bullets. I had 300gr at around 2,100 out of my 333jeff.
They were soft, which was ok considering the speed (or lack thereof) of the 333.
I don’t know if I would use them in other calibers unless the structure changes to be more caliber specific.

I have not used them in anything else.

The rhino solid shank expanding softs do very well.
They expand well and retain weight well.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

First, I have not reloaded any metalic cartridge in over 25 yrs.

Why did you use the 450-400 to compare with the .375H&H. Would it not be better to compare the .404 J.?

Lon

 

[steve white]

First, I have not reloaded any metalic cartridge in over 25 yrs.

Why did you use the 450-400 to compare with the .375H&H. Would it not be better to compare the .404 J.?

Lon

Just drew it out of the hat as perhaps the closest upgrade from 375 H&H
The pictures I saw in Kevin Robertson's book of the Stewart projectiles, they looked as wide as an alley cat trying to stretch out and snag the sides of the hole, lol.

 

[IvW]

Stewrds are way to soft for my 500 Jeff over expansion big time.....they are bonded but not controlled expansion bullets.....pg maybe dg not for me.....

 

[BeeMaa]

Stewrds are way to soft for my 500 Jeff over expansion big time.....they are bonded but not controlled expansion bullets.....pg maybe dg not for me.....

Sounds like a good bullet for leopard and lion.

 

[IvW]

Yip... they perform well at traditional double cartridge speeds