SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

[IvW]

They are microchipped and scanned on release and again when hunted . This is the way it will work on the 8 properties Phasa approved

Who has been tasked to police and enforce this?

 

[IdaRam]

Yet it is done and happens all the time. Maybe all the hunters were not aware but the reality is it happens. No need to swear and get all upset about reality.

I am not prepared to partake that is my choice anybody has their own opinion and if this floats your boat go ahead.

Yes, unfortunately it is done. No disagreement. I think most hunters who are members here on AH understand that. I have yet to see a single person support it. Not one. If someone has posted support for the “shoot same day, or next day” practice, please show it to me.
Swearing???
Once again, you seem to like to “spin” peoples comments for your own purposes. While the practices of some, maybe many, CBL operators upsets me, you and I both know that was not what the issue in this case was. It was not a case of me being upset with reality, but your misrepresentations, which you are doing again by the way.
What I do not like is individuals such as yourself refusing to acknowledge that there are those of us who condemn the practices of these operators who “shoot the same day”, but also believe there is room for Captive Bred Lion hunting that is in line with the guidelines put forth by PHASA most recently, or something similar. Large property, lengthy release, hunting for themselves, etc.
I am getting fed up with the characterization that those who are not adamantly opposed to CBL hunting are actually in favor of ALL CBL hunting. Anyone who has failed to figure out there are those of us who are just as opposed to much of what has gone on in the past with Captive Bred lions has not been paying attention, or is unwilling to listen.
There is no question that there are challenges to implementing and enforcing guidelines/rules. But how is the CBL issue different than anything else? Show me any other rules or laws regarding wildlife management and I will show you rule breakers. Should we shut down all hunting in South Africa because it is impossible to make certain all safari operators comply with all PHASA or SCI guidelines? Should we shut down wild lion hunting in Zim because someone will inevitably behave inappropriately? I would much rather engage in the conversation about how we all might work together to ensure the rules, guidelines, laws etc are enforced and overseen rather than debate who has moral superiority.
@IvW , I’m sure you are a great PH with much knowledge and experience. I would like nothing more than to benefit from that wisdom, but I have a hard time taking you seriously when all I hear from you is condescension and misrepresentations.

 

[IvW]

Yes, unfortunately it is done. No disagreement. I think most hunters who are members here on AH understand that. I have yet to see a single person support it. Not one. If someone has posted support for the “shoot same day, or next day” practice, please show it to me.
Swearing???
Once again, you seem to like to “spin” peoples comments for your own purposes. While the practices of some, maybe many, CBL operators upsets me, you and I both know that was not what the issue in this case was. It was not a case of me being upset with reality, but your misrepresentations, which you are doing again by the way.
What I do not like is individuals such as yourself refusing to acknowledge that there are those of us who condemn the practices of these operators who “shoot the same day”, but also believe there is room for Captive Bred Lion hunting that is in line with the guidelines put forth by PHASA most recently, or something similar. Large property, lengthy release, hunting for themselves, etc.
I am getting fed up with the characterization that those who are not adamantly opposed to CBL hunting are actually in favor of ALL CBL hunting. Anyone who has failed to figure out there are those of us who are just as opposed to much of what has gone on in the past with Captive Bred lions has not been paying attention, or is unwilling to listen.
There is no question that there are challenges to implementing and enforcing guidelines/rules. But how is the CBL issue different than anything else? Show me any other rules or laws regarding wildlife management and I will show you rule breakers. Should we shut down all hunting in South Africa because it is impossible to make certain all safari operators comply with all PHASA or SCI guidelines? Should we shut down wild lion hunting in Zim because someone will inevitably behave inappropriately? I would much rather engage in the conversation about how we all might work together to ensure the rules, guidelines, laws etc are enforced and overseen rather than debate who has moral superiority.
@IvW , I’m sure you are a great PH with much knowledge and experience. I would like nothing more than to benefit from that wisdom, but I have a hard time taking you seriously when all I hear from you is condescension and misrepresentations.

I never said anybody on this forum has supported the "release shoot same day" of CBL, so why you refer to that I don't know.

Using the word "Jesus" the way you did is swearing and I find that offencive on a public forum.

"Once again, you seem to like to “spin” peoples comments for your own purposes."
"but your misrepresentations, which you are doing again by the way."

What own purpose? What misrepresentations? I have voiced my own opinion regarding.

I have not condemned anybody who wishes to hunt CBL and I agree that if it is regulated and done correctly then it would be beneficial to all. Until such time as it is regulated and all the role players do their part I will unfortunately not partake as it is a practice I do not agree with as it is done now.

There is no control in the industry. Out of all the CBL facilities(more than 100) there are only 8 who started SAPA.

If you have an association and you have a set of rules they need to be enforced.

I ask again, who will police the release periods, be it 3 day's, 30 day's or 6 months? Nobody with authority anyway, it will be left to the owners of each property.

Microchipping? Again who will enforce this? If it is the owner. it will like in the past be manipulated.

I have in the past been part of many CBL hunts and I can assure you for me they were not good experiences and hence I have decided to not support it until such time as it is regulated properly. My thoughts are however that CBL hunting is actually beneficial to wild lion hunting

 

[Hank2211]

I never said anybody on this forum has supported the "release shoot same day" of CBL, so why you refer to that I don't know.

Using the word "Jesus" the way you did is swearing and I find that offencive on a public forum.

"Once again, you seem to like to “spin” peoples comments for your own purposes."
"but your misrepresentations, which you are doing again by the way."

What own purpose? What misrepresentations? I have voiced my own opinion regarding.

I have not condemned anybody who wishes to hunt CBL and I agree that if it is regulated and done correctly then it would be beneficial to all. Until such time as it is regulated and all the role players do their part I will unfortunately not partake as it is a practice I do not agree with as it is done now.

There is no control in the industry. Out of all the CBL facilities(more than 100) there are only 8 who started SAPA.

If you have an association and you have a set of rules they need to be enforced.

I ask again, who will police the release periods, be it 3 day's, 30 day's or 6 months? Nobody with authority anyway, it will be left to the owners of each property.

Microchipping? Again who will enforce this? If it is the owner. it will like in the past be manipulated.

I have in the past been part of many CBL hunts and I can assure you for me they were not good experiences and hence I have decided to not support it until such time as it is regulated properly. My thoughts are however that CBL hunting is actually beneficial to wild lion hunting

I suggest we stay away from the enforcement angle to this argument for a number of reasons:

1. The legality of a CBL hunt was not relevant for SCI, DSC or any of the other organizations which have come out against CBL hunting.

2. Hunting laws may be violated in any number of countries, for any number of reasons. I note that in North America, in both the US and in Canada, there are numerous prosecutions for hunting law violations every year. This is of course a good thing, but if you think that every violation is prosecuted, you are touchingly naive. The relevance of this is quite simply that the presence of hunting law violations or the manipulation of hunting laws is not a reason to stop hunting or a type of hunting, or to oppose hunting. If it were, it would be the same in North America, where it occurs all too frequently.

On this issue, I note that a number of web sites suggest that it is illegal to hunt animals from a vehicle in South Africa (One website states: "You're not allowed to take pot shots at game from the back of a vehicle, despite many custom built shooting racks on most outfitter hunting rigs - in fact you are not allowed to be within 200 meters of a vehicle?"). AH states that hunting from a vehicle is permitted in some provinces of South Africa, but does not name them. SCI states that it is illegal to hunt any TOPS animals from a vehicle (which includes the black wildebeest, an animal I would think is often shot from a vehicle).

How many members of this forum have never shot an animal from a vehicle in South Africa? I'm sure some have, but I'm equally sure most have violated this law.

3. PHASA states that if this activity is to go on, it is better that it be regulated than not be regulated. Would any of us disagree with this idea? Why was it better when PHASA wanted nothing to do with CBL hunting? Did it make it go away? Did it reduce the number of lions hunted in this manner? Did it have any impact at all, except to make CBL hunting less transparent from a hunter's perspective? I suggest PHASA should be applauded for saying that a legal hunting method should be conducted legally, openly and transparently, and that it is prepared to involve itself in that process.

4. You, and no one else, are the best enforcer of hunting laws. Inform yourself, and ask the right questions. If you insist on hunting CBL in an ethical manner (yes, it can be done), then you need to insist on hunting on one of the 8 properties which are monitored, and which have committed to enforce the rules. You also need to ask the right questions, and be prepared to say something if anything appears amiss. If all CBL hunters were to the this approach, the remaining outfitters would soon figure out that the best way to get hunters is to join those who are regulated. Let the unregulated outfitters become the pariahs of the industry - but it won't happen if you choose to hunt there.

If you'd like more reasons why the enforcement issue is not relevant to this discussion, feel free to ask. As many know, I can go on . . . and on . . .

 

[SafariA]

I got the statistics from our office . From 2008 to 2018 there were 6 complaints filed regarding lions . These were the following 2 permit problems. 1 taxidermy problem . 1 skin were the export dragged out. 1 where wrong tags was put on skins and then 1 donated hunt that did not materialise.

So in short ..... 6 complaints over 10 years . Average lions hunted was between 400 and 800 . So we can with ease say 5000 over this 10 year period.

Not 1 .... complaint about the hunting experience or misrepresentation by Outfitter.

In any normal circumstances it seems one is not guilty untill proven innocent except in this case .... guilty untill proven innocent.

I have to say again . 4 days is the law that makes it legal. Phasa adopted min 30 days on 8 properties . I see this as a good starting point towards cleaning up the wrongs ..... can we give this Industry the chance to make it work ...... ?

I again confirm . I have never hunted any of these Lions . I have no vested interest . I am sure the SAPA guys know there will be no second chance .

 

[rinehart0050]

But you say that SCI’s decision does not respect the freedom of choice for hunters. All SCI says is that no one can advertise these hunts at the annual convention nor enter the lions in the record book.

I think where a hunter's choice is affected is that the hunter advocacy groups (SCI, DSC) will no longer advocate to allow imports into the USA. They will no longer lobby Congress, the president, etc. So CBL imports into the USA are gone forever.

They are microchipped and scanned on release and again when hunted . This is the way it will work on the 8 properties Phasa approved

Sounds like a smart and reasonable way to monitor compliance. I think a step in the right direction- possibly too late though.

 

[Mike70560]

4. You, and no one else, are the best enforcer of hunting laws. Inform yourself, and ask the right questions. If you insist on hunting CBL in an ethical manner (yes, it can be done), then you need to insist on hunting on one of the 8 properties which are monitored, and which have committed to enforce the rules. You also need to ask the right questions, and be prepared to say something if anything appears amiss. If all CBL hunters were to the this approach, the remaining outfitters would soon figure out that the best way to get hunters is to join those who are regulated. Let the unregulated outfitters become the pariahs of the industry - but it won't happen if you choose to hunt there.

Hank,

That is one of the best statements in this entire thread. I have said the same thing in regards to hunting elsewhere. Ask questions, do your research, use the guys who are doing the right thing. It is my utmost hope those guys succeed and thrive in their business.

 

[Paul Babaz]

Paul,

Thanks for being here and for publishing your manifesto.

You and Rick are a breath of fresh air. SCI is in the best position of all the hunting organizations to make a statement and a stand. Many of us feel that SCI has abdicated that responsibility in the past. Take SCI's stance on Cecil as an example. DSC made a stand. John Jackson made a stand. Others did as well. SCI did its best to pretend that Cecil did not happen and turned on a member before any evidence was in. SCI was in a position to stand up to all the lies the media was reporting regarding Cecil. If I remember correct, there were 8-10 flat out lies being repeated ad nauseam. Hunters needed a representative to counter those lies and explain true conservation.

SCI is in a position to represent all of us. We plead with you and beg of you, for SCI to lead us. One of the things that leaders must do is listen. Coming onto AH shows you are willing to listen. You don't know how much that means to those of us who have felt ignored by SCI for years.

Thank you again for your presence on AH. I look forward to your participation.

Thank you Wheels, I appreciate the comments and we are indeed here to listen!

 

[Paul Babaz]

Thank you for this. I couldn't agree more! I am glad that both you and @Rick Parsons are here and willing to be part of the discussion. Knowing that the leadership is listening is a very important step in the right direction that I think will go far in minds of hunters. We have been divided for too long and I really can't understand why. We are all passionate about the same thing and we need to focus on that in the future. We don't need to agree but we do need to remain civil, open to discussion and listen to each other and we absolutely need organizations like SCI. I do believe you when you say that you will do your best...

Thank you Sir, I know you all will hold my feet to fire!

 

[Paul Babaz]

Paul,

I hope all is well and it is good to see you posting here. I agree it is difficult to accurately age a lion in the field to within year. However the guideline for a shootable male lion involved more than age. I felt it to be a good guideline and believe it would have been beneficial for the lion had SCI adopted it. That is my opinion. I would like to see a similar guideline even for buffalo. It seems the current SCI scoring system rewards hunters for shooting immature buffalo.

Again these items are guideline for what some consider ethical hunting. I applaud the stance SCI took on the pen raised lion and hope to see a continued push towards conservation and protecting our hunting rights. Good move to DC!!

For those not familiar with the Huntable Male Lion definition here it is. I believe this to be the final form.

Huntable Male Lion:
The hunting and scientific communities agree that lion hunting must be biologically sustainable, in which harvests should have no negative long-term impact on lion populations. An essential step in attaining sustainability is the adoption of standards on what is a ‘huntable’ male lion; that is, a lion that can be hunted without any negative effect on the sustainability of the local population from which it is removed.
The most important factor to consider is age. The exact age of a huntable male lion is dependent upon many regional factors such as habitat and associated differences in lion ecology and social structure and thus, may vary slightly regionally, but the general concept holds true for all. The below definition has been endorsed by scientists working in Tanzania, Mozambique and Zambia.
Huntable male lions are defined as those male lions whose off-take has no negative impact on the sustainability of local lion population dynamics. Research has shown that these are typically lions six years of age or more that have completed at least one breeding cycle. To reduce risks of infanticide, males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less) should not be hunted. Based on these considerations, a huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs. The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.
For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoestakingthatlion. Research models have confirmed that responsible hunting does not alter wild lion population dynamics if restricted to males which meet the criteria of a huntable lion.

Thank Mike, I appreciate being here and appreciate all the conversation! I recall several years ago when the SCI Foundation conservation department took time to research the all of the buffalo record book entries to dispel the theory that the SCI scoring method encouraged the hunting of younger buffalo. If I can get my hands on this research, I'd be happy to share it.

 

[Paul Babaz]

Paul and Rick thanks for making a token appearance on the forum.
I shall speak with my wallet and not renew my SCI membership and resign as a measurer and I will not be casting a vote for you to the NRA.
I do not wish to be part of an organization where a board makes decisions without a vote of the membership on important issues and policies.

Buckdog, I'm sorry to see you leave as an SCI member, because as a hunter I would think there is more issues that you would agree with SCI on than disagree.
As far as the board goes, every SCI chapter President is a board member, as are Regional Representatives, and of course individual Directors at Large. this being said, I believe the SCI board does a good job of representing the SCI membership as a whole.

I invite you to become part of the solution by becoming involved with your local SCI chapter as you could be more directly involved via your chapter president who is a board member. You would also have the option to running for president of your chapter and become a chapter member yourself or you can run for a SCI Director at large position once you have served on the chapter's board for two years.

Lastly, I believe I offered to speak to you to address your concerns first hand, but as we were both travelling last week I offered to speak to you this week.

 

[Paul Babaz]

Ok I would post question again . Maybe someone can give me an answer . @ Paul and Rick. One more question . It was stated that the decision was based on public opinion. Where do we draw the line ..... Public opinion is against all hunting and especially Trophy hunting . I would also like to know if the Captive stags in NZ qualify for the estate ruling .

Spesifically referring to the 40 and 50 k auction items .

I would appreciate if someone could give me clarity .

Good to have you guys on board here. !

SafariA, I see down thread a bit where Rick answered part of your question, but in regards to SCI's policy, SCI's decision was not based on public opinion. I'm not sure where that came from.

 

[Paul Babaz]

@Rick Parsons ,
Glad you are here and engaged in the discussion regarding SCI’s stance on the CBL topic.
You have stated that SCI’s position is not based on public opinion. I must admit that my impression up to this point has been that public opinion was a big factor. I’m willing to accept what you’ve said and chalk it up to misperception on my part.
Can you comment on what effect, if any, the turmoil within PHASA, SAPA, and the formation of the new South African organization (I forget the name/acronym) has had on SCI’s position and their taking up the issue and coming out more “publicly” with a statement of SCI’s position on the issue?
What is the number one biggest contributing factor that caused SCI to take up the issue now and to formally adopt the current position?
Also, can you share some insight on what seems to be a more critical view of Captive Bred Lion hunting and the hunting of other captive bred game? Is there a difference in viewpoint? Should there be?
Thank you sir. Would love to hear anything you or @Paul Babaz has to say on these topics.

IdaRam, I appreciate the question, but I don't think I can summarize a few years of ongoing discussions on CBL, as it has been ongoing for quite a while and was an independent decision away from the South African associations. SCI's policy on captive bred animals was originally drafted in regards to Ungulates and not an apex predator as the behavior of each is vastly different. Please note that I am not a wildlife biologist, so I that's about as scientific as I get.

Just a note to all, a comment was made in regards to Rick Parsons and I making a token appearance, please note that both Rick have full time careers and simply don't have the time to be on here full time to address every question and comment, but we will do the best we can. Please don't feel like you are being ignored if we don't respond every comment or question.

Thanks again all, Paul

 

[Paul Babaz]

rick,

welcome to AH!

it took quite a while to read all these posts! (wanted perspective)

a question regarding a point made by SCI:



re: distinction between...apex predator...and other species in same setting.

why the distinction? not combative, just curious. does that mean an apex predator has more value, or rights to being hunted than a deer, boar, pheasant etc?

some animals that we hunt are desirable, and have more people wanting to hunt them than the land will naturally produce. again, pheasants and quail come to mind, but there are plenty of plains game areas in africa that have animals brought in, whether to replace shot animals or infuse new genetics, it is still a put and take after a fashion.

i will likely never be able to hunt an elephant, lion or a leopard. i'd like to someday, but it is beyond my means and likely wild taken, 6 year old lions will only become more expensive as they will likely be in short supply.

i wonder if one of the reasons put and take game birds is considered ok, because they are not scored and put into a record book?

also, does hunting a canned lion have any positive affect on wild lions? negative affect? i have read other points on that question, was wondering about SCI stance on net affect on wild lion numbers.

full disclaimer, i have only hunted africa once (SA) so am not terribly experienced hunting Africa. i shot 6 animals, and never measured any of them until i got them home, opened the crate and was about to hang up out of reach.

i do appreciate your willingness to come to this site and listen to others on this apparently very controversial subject. thanks to you and paul and your willingness to give up your time to help steer your organization, good luck and god speed!

don

Don, again my disclaimer that I am not a wildlife biologist, but one of the distinctions between a lion compared to a ungulate (deer, antelope, etc), or a bird is a matte of vastly different behaviors. As to the conservation question as far as I am aware, there isn't any peer reviewed research showing a conservation benefit of captive bred lions.

 

[Royal27]

Just a note to all, a comment was made in regards to Rick Parsons and I making a token appearance, please note that both Rick have full time careers and simply don't have the time to be on here full time to address every question and comment, but we will do the best we can. Please don't feel like you are being ignored if we don't respond every comment or question.

@Paul Babaz ,

I saw that comment too and took it to mean that the poster thought you'd come to AH, made your token appearance, and then would likely never be heard from again.

Keep posting and talking here occasionally and that belief will be dispelled.

 

[Paul Babaz]

@Paul Babaz ,

I saw that comment too and took it to mean that the poster thought you'd come to AH, made your token appearance, and then would likely never be heard from again.

Keep posting and talking here occasionally and that belief will be dispelled.

@Royal27 I appreciate it, and will do my best to be on here as much as I can and address questions and comments as best as I can.

 

[thestar4]

Thanks to SCI. I was just about ready to renew my membership and saw what they did with the lions and outfitters at the show. I’m done with this organization completely. When they start caving to the whims of the anti’s I have no interest in supporting them or what they supposedly, “Stand for.” It’s clear that what they actually stand for is nothing. I sincerely hope that African outfitters get together and boycott SCI completely. I’m really sorry that I contributed for so long.

 

[IdaRam]

IdaRam, I appreciate the question, but I don't think I can summarize a few years of ongoing discussions on CBL, as it has been ongoing for quite a while and was an independent decision away from the South African associations. SCI's policy on captive bred animals was originally drafted in regards to Ungulates and not an apex predator as the behavior of each is vastly different. Please note that I am not a wildlife biologist, so I that's about as scientific as I get.

Just a note to all, a comment was made in regards to Rick Parsons and I making a token appearance, please note that both Rick have full time careers and simply don't have the time to be on here full time to address every question and comment, but we will do the best we can. Please don't feel like you are being ignored if we don't respond every comment or question.

Thanks again all, Paul

Thank you Paul. I’m glad you are here and I appreciate the response. And I understand what you’re saying.
I too saw the comment referenced above and I believe you and Rick will prove you both are here for more than a token appearance. I most certainly hope so anyway

 

[Mike B]

I was just thinking the same as above. I think it’s great that Paul and Rick have taken time to join, comment and contribute. Even PHASA has joined to comment (I hope more). I don’t think that when this thread was started anyone thought the top brass of SCI would show up to discuss. Love SCI or hate it, I commend you both for showing up.

 

[sierraone]

I am glad they are here, but they have opened up a can of worms for themselves. They can't make everyone happy regardless of the question, and we are a very small group. I fully understand they have to work for a living and don't expect to see them on this forum everyday. But I do wish them the best of luck!!!