SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

[1dirthawker]

rick,

welcome to AH!

it took quite a while to read all these posts! (wanted perspective)

a question regarding a point made by SCI:

The issue was discussed in great detail by our governing bodies before the position was reached. All aspects were considered. The collective judgement of our Board, which is large and is full of experienced hunters, was that there was a distinction between breeding and hunting an apex predator in a hunting estate setting and the hunting of other species in the same setting.

re: distinction between...apex predator...and other species in same setting.

why the distinction? not combative, just curious. does that mean an apex predator has more value, or rights to being hunted than a deer, boar, pheasant etc?

some animals that we hunt are desirable, and have more people wanting to hunt them than the land will naturally produce. again, pheasants and quail come to mind, but there are plenty of plains game areas in africa that have animals brought in, whether to replace shot animals or infuse new genetics, it is still a put and take after a fashion.

i will likely never be able to hunt an elephant, lion or a leopard. i'd like to someday, but it is beyond my means and likely wild taken, 6 year old lions will only become more expensive as they will likely be in short supply.

i wonder if one of the reasons put and take game birds is considered ok, because they are not scored and put into a record book?

also, does hunting a canned lion have any positive affect on wild lions? negative affect? i have read other points on that question, was wondering about SCI stance on net affect on wild lion numbers.

full disclaimer, i have only hunted africa once (SA) so am not terribly experienced hunting Africa. i shot 6 animals, and never measured any of them until i got them home, opened the crate and was about to hang up out of reach.

i do appreciate your willingness to come to this site and listen to others on this apparently very controversial subject. thanks to you and paul and your willingness to give up your time to help steer your organization, good luck and god speed!

don

 

[Rick Parsons]

@Rick Parsons

Welcome to AH!

Thank you for taking the time to come here and post. Many of us truly appreciate it!

You may get some blunt feedback since there are many of us who are/were members of SCI that feel ignored over the years. Many of us have let our membership lapse. In my case, 6-8 emails to SCI were completely ignored by your staff with no response.

It doesn't have to be you individually, but it would be nice if someone from SCI would be a member on AH so that SCI would understand the concerns or the positions of a number of your members. Especially since your staff is not necessarily responsive.

Again, Thank You for posting and please feel free to jump in at any time. Your thoughts and opinions are valued, even if they are not completely agreed with.

I appreciate the welcome. And I have no problem with the blunt replies. Goodness knows, things are so complex in our hunting world these days that it helps to hear other points of view. I certainly never claimed to have a corner on all knowledge. I'm learning my way around this forum and today I read all the posts, up to this one so far, on CBL. I had no idea there was this much interest. Personally I think that's a good thing. I've been doing this for SCI for over 30 years and I really believe we are under serious attack. To me, though, CBL has little to do with the antis. Sure they'll claim a victory. But as a group we have to take a stand in what we think is right as hunters. I have my own preferences that tend toward purist. I like a bow because I think it's more challenging, but I like a rifle too.

To get back to CBL, I haven't seen any comment on this thread so far that doesn't have some merit. For SCI, the CBL decision was difficult and took time to get to because there were so many points of view. One thing that motivated me was fear of the hunting community fracturing over this issue. We are a difficult group to keep together on the best of days, but I haven't seen this kind of strong opinion from entire organizations on any other issue. I doubt we'll ever see unanimity, but one of our goals is to keep looking for ways to keep us all rowing in the same direction.

 

[Rick Parsons]

rick,

welcome to AH!

it took quite a while to read all these posts! (wanted perspective)

a question regarding a point made by SCI:



re: distinction between...apex predator...and other species in same setting.

why the distinction? not combative, just curious. does that mean an apex predator has more value, or rights to being hunted than a deer, boar, pheasant etc?

some animals that we hunt are desirable, and have more people wanting to hunt them than the land will naturally produce. again, pheasants and quail come to mind, but there are plenty of plains game areas in africa that have animals brought in, whether to replace shot animals or infuse new genetics, it is still a put and take after a fashion.

i will likely never be able to hunt an elephant, lion or a leopard. i'd like to someday, but it is beyond my means and likely wild taken, 6 year old lions will only become more expensive as they will likely be in short supply.

i wonder if one of the reasons put and take game birds is considered ok, because they are not scored and put into a record book?

also, does hunting a canned lion have any positive affect on wild lions? negative affect? i have read other points on that question, was wondering about SCI stance on net affect on wild lion numbers.

full disclaimer, i have only hunted africa once (SA) so am not terribly experienced hunting Africa. i shot 6 animals, and never measured any of them until i got them home, opened the crate and was about to hang up out of reach.

i do appreciate your willingness to come to this site and listen to others on this apparently very controversial subject. thanks to you and paul and your willingness to give up your time to help steer your organization, good luck and god speed!

don

Don,

I'm not sure I can explain the apex predator thing, but I'll give it a shot (get the pun?). Lions behave a lot differently than ungulates. They don't live in herds. They don't behave like herd animals. They hunt, they don't graze. To the hunter they are truly a different beast and are considered different than all the antelopes. The first time I ever saw lions in the wild was as a tourist, not a hunter, in Botswana. I watched and listened as two females circled in opposite directions, herding an impala pair into the center of an area where a third female had a good chance to get one of them. I could hear the lions communicating with low noises as they cooperated in the hunt. It was awesome. They are a different beast than an impala, gemsbok or whatever. I think that's where some of the distinction comes from.

Rick

 

[mrpoindexter]

While I understand that "canned" lion hunting gives everyone a bad name, I think this went a little too far. Again I have zero interest in hunting lion, any lion. According this this, Ranch managed lion are now a canned hunt, any lion behind a fence. I would have much preferred that ranch managed lions that are in an enclosure in excess of their natural range of 64k acres for more then X period of time be an acceptable fair chase hunt.

One thing that burns me up is when some decide to use the term the anti's made up. They feel they need to use canned and buy right in to the use of it because well they don't like it..

I think we get into dangerous territory when we acknowledge the word "canned" because it is designed to be an adjective to smear anything it is attached to. Think of the world "assault" added to the word rifle. What is an assault rifle? Anything the gun control people want to get rid of. Today it is the AR-15, tomorrow it will be any semi-automatic gun, and once they win on that, it will be anything with a rate of fire faster than a musket and then it will be a musket because it is a .50 caliber weapon.

When we use the term canned, we legitimize it and it will be used for CBL, then CB-anything, then any and all hunting fenced property regardless of size.

Remember this is not law. If you want to sell a pen raised lion to be shot a day after its release go right ahead, same if you want to hunt it. Nobody is trying to stop you. So the “anti-hunters win” argument is not valid, you can still go. Just don’t expect these organizations to support it.

Yes, nobody is stopping us - at SCI. But do you think that SCI is going to try and stop the ARA crowd from trying to outlaw it now?

I once had the agenda of HSUS explained to me. They want the whole world to convert to veganism. They know that they cannot ban the sale of meat. Instead, they just want to raise the cost of providing it. If they can drive the suppliers out of business, they accomplish the same goal but with far less opposition. And here they are, driving the profit from hunting CBL lions or any plains game on a ranch that has CBL.

Now, I often hear that hunting CBL does not enhance the conservation of wild lions. I wonder why that is the only litmus test. Hypothetically, if hunting lions enhanced the conservation of black rhinos and didn't harm the wild lion populations, would we still oppose it? I ask because a lot of habitat is set aside for hunting that would not be set aside if CBL was stopped. Certainly the CBL ranches won't make ends meet. What does this do for the totality of habitat? What about animals on that habitat that are not being hunted? I see the Temmick's ground pangolin has the Kalahari, a prime CBL locale, as part of its range. Is it safe to assume not many poachers venture onto lion hunting property to poach pangolins? Are there other species that benefit from CBL and is that enough to warrant hunting them? Or does hunting a species have to have a positive finding on exclusively that specific species and not other vulnerable or threatened species to be considered conservation?

 

[Rick Parsons]

Ok I would post question again . Maybe someone can give me an answer . @ Paul and Rick. One more question . It was stated that the decision was based on public opinion. Where do we draw the line ..... Public opinion is against all hunting and especially Trophy hunting . I would also like to know if the Captive stags in NZ qualify for the estate ruling .

Spesifically referring to the 40 and 50 k auction items .

I would appreciate if someone could give me clarity .

Good to have you guys on board here. !

SCI's position was not based on public opinion. It was based on the collective sense of our Board about what was right for hunting. Where public opinion comes in is that we need to be aware of it and learn to speak to the people who are not committed antis. Speaking to the antis is basically a waste of time. I have spent an entire career listening to those folks talking about how they want to save wildlife but they have no idea, nor do they care about the realities of Africa. Someone said it earlier in this thread -- if it pays it stays. Public opinion is important because in these days of social media where anyone can say anything, even if it's stupid or false, the public can e whipped up quickly and easily into a force that makes thing change. Grizzly bear hunting was banned in British Columbia last year because the party in power believed that their public didn't like the idea of hunting grizzlies.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Rick Parsons I understand where you are coming from but I believe it opens up a path to the public opinion to frown upon all high fence hunting. We would not have the "three amigos" if not for high fence ranches in Texas. There someday could be the same scenario with Lions though I doubt it given their iconic image...as we know iconic animals take a higher priority in the ARA community.

But I digress too much, I feel that by SCI taking this stance you have at best questioned the ethics of member who have partaken in a CBL hunt. Though their were bad actors in this field, the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. And I understand SCI isn't banning the hunting of them but it has basically stated they are unethical and as a hunter when the largest safari organization doesn't support you, it is hard to justify that to the public.

As some have brought up where is the stance on the New Zealand estate hunts, many of these mutant bucks, etc. Though to say an Apex predator is different is fine, however this seems to be more of an emotional reasoning than any type of scientic one. I know you are walking a fine line between supporting hunters and gaining public opinion but the biggest uproar we ever had was over a wild lion.

 

[IvW]

Welcome to AH Rick.

@Rick Parsons

If you could elaborate on the two points above I would appreciate that as they are not clear to me and may in some way be contradictory.

The way I understand it point nr. 1. is only relevant to the first batch of animals of a certain species introduced to the property.
However it could also mean a minimum of 6 months as for CBL hunts or other properties that buy in animals for the purpose of hunting(elk, sable, kudu), basically any species of which only males are brought in. No African animals can be part of a breeding herd in 6 months the cycle is just too short.

Point nr.3 however will then completely exclude CBL hunts as well as "put and take" of any other species if they were not given the opportunity to be "part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property".

I would appreciate if you could clear this up, many thanks.

Regards
IvW

Let me try again.

Welcome to AH Rick.

@Rick Parsons
Our fair chase standards for estate hunting are:

1. The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.

3. The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

If you could elaborate on the two points above I would appreciate that as they are not clear to me and may in some way be contradictory.

The way I understand it point nr. 1. is only relevant to the first batch of animals of a certain species introduced to the property.
However it could also mean a minimum of 6 months as for CBL hunts or other properties that buy in animals for the purpose of hunting(elk, sable, kudu), basically any species of which only males are brought in. No African animals can be part of a breeding herd in 6 months the cycle is just too short.

Point nr.3 however will then completely exclude CBL hunts as well as "put and take" of any other species if they were not given the opportunity to be "part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property".

I would appreciate if you could clear this up, many thanks.

Regards
IvW

 

[IvW]

Not knowing the details of your hunt, but as a comment to pen raised lions in general this is what SCI is using to distinguish the difference.

“The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.”

Releasing an animal, and it should be any animal not just lions days before being shot, is what SCI and DSC have an issue with. And don’t worry, I am sure the practice will continue, it is not a ban, it is not a law, it is an ethical decision made by two hunting organizations. It is also definitely not a win for the anti-hunters. And I am sure operators will somehow circumvent SCI’s decision through some loophole and continue to sell these shootings at the show.

So this will exclude ALL CBL lions as none of them will make this criteria and even the few selected ranches who are members of SAPA, their lions will also not make it.

Some SAPA and PHASA members were under the impression that only the 6 months pre-release would be necessary for SCI recognition.

 

[IvW]

Don,

I'm not sure I can explain the apex predator thing, but I'll give it a shot (get the pun?). Lions behave a lot differently than ungulates. They don't live in herds. They don't behave like herd animals. They hunt, they don't graze. To the hunter they are truly a different beast and are considered different than all the antelopes. The first time I ever saw lions in the wild was as a tourist, not a hunter, in Botswana. I watched and listened as two females circled in opposite directions, herding an impala pair into the center of an area where a third female had a good chance to get one of them. I could hear the lions communicating with low noises as they cooperated in the hunt. It was awesome. They are a different beast than an impala, gemsbok or whatever. I think that's where some of the distinction comes from.

Rick

But they still fall under the same SCI fair chase standards for estate hunting?

Which will then mean under this set of standards CBL be excluded for the purpose of record book entry in SCI or not?

All a bit confusing if things are not straight forward.

 

[Aaron N]

Here’s a question for all the members who have hunted CBL in the past.

Would you have taken part in the hunt if the current SCI stance in place at that point in time?

What I wonder is what proportion of the hunting population will not partake in a certain hunt just because they won’t be record book eligible.

They aren’t breaking any laws, but like we all say, hunt for the experience, and leave the tape at home. There’s a whole lot more to this sport then SCI’s book.

 

[SafariA]

@Rick ...So I guess Lions did not pay ..... thats why they are not staying ..... also NO reply again on my questions about the 40 and 50 k NZ stags on auction .....

 

[Mike70560]

Here’s a question for all the members who have hunted CBL in the past.

Would you have taken part in the hunt if the current SCI stance in place at that point in time?

What I wonder is what proportion of the hunting population will not partake in a certain hunt just because they won’t be record book eligible.

They aren’t breaking any laws, but like we all say, hunt for the experience, and leave the tape at home. There’s a whole lot more to this sport then SCI’s book.

Better question,

If you knew the lion you hunted slept in a pen the night before you arrived would you still hunt it?

It is not about the record book, it is about what SCI views as ethical, as does South African Hunter’s and Game Conservation Association, African Professional Hunters Association, ex-members of PHASA (some of whom actually post here), the South African Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, along with other organizations and private entities.

For the record, no pun intended, I have no animals in the record book, nor will I ever, and would be perfectly happy to see all of the records and slams go away.

 

[SafariA]

Better question,

If you knew the lion you hunted slept in a pen the night before you arrived would you still hunt it?

It is not about the record book, it is about what SCI views as ethical, as does South African Hunter’s and Game Conservation Association, African Professional Hunters Association, ex-members of PHASA (some of whom actually post here), the South African Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, along with other organizations and private entities.

For the record, no pun intended, I have no animals in the record book, nor will I ever, and would be perfectly happy to see all of the records and slams go away.

NOWHERE did Phasa condone hunting of lions that spent the night before in a cage .... pls get your detail verified. Min release period 30 days on only 8 accreditted properties.

We are destroying our own right to hunt by constantly attacking each other !!!!

 

[Hank2211]

Here’s a question for all the members who have hunted CBL in the past.

Would you have taken part in the hunt if the current SCI stance in place at that point in time?

What I wonder is what proportion of the hunting population will not partake in a certain hunt just because they won’t be record book eligible.

They aren’t breaking any laws, but like we all say, hunt for the experience, and leave the tape at home. There’s a whole lot more to this sport then SCI’s book.

I’ve participated in captive bred lion hunting in the past, on my own a few times and with others several times.

Had SCI had its rules in place at the time, I would have hunted just the same. Record books mean nothing to me, and I will make up my own mind about what is hunting and what is not. I’ve been a member of SCI for years, and I don’t tell them what to do, and they don’t tell me what to do.

Similarly, banning the import of the trophy won’t impact my hunting choices either.

I find distinctions involving different species of animals to be specious (!), and breeding herds or not to be silly and meaningless in the case of an animal that will breed year round if there’s a nearby female in heat. Note that it’s ok to put a monster whitetail buck out in a small fenced area with females after the rut, even though he won’t be even thinking about breeding during the six months he has to be there before you shoot your store bought trophy. But not to let a lioness and lion free, even though they will likely breed in a week.

I appreciate that Mr. Parsons has joined the discussion, but I have to say that we disagree fundamentally about this issue. It is about the antis, and it is about a small group telling hunters what to do and not do. You can dress it up, but that’s what it’s about.

By the way, I’ve also been involved in baited cat hunts. Tracking lions on foot is a more interesting hunting experience.

 

[Mike70560]

No where did I say PHASA condones that practice. I said ex-members of PHASA were concerned about the ethics of hunting.

It is just a simple question, no different than the record book question previous to mine.

Good point about PHASA, so there are only 8 accredited properties in SA out of how many 100's selling these hunts, and that is with just a 30 day waiting period, much less the 6 months others organizations were looking for.

 

[Aaron N]

Better question,

If you knew the lion you hunted slept in a pen the night before you arrived would you still hunt it?

It is not about the record book, it is about what SCI views as ethical, as does South African Hunter’s and Game Conservation Association, African Professional Hunters Association, ex-members of PHASA (some of whom actually post here), the South African Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, along with other organizations and private entities.

For the record, no pun intended, I have no animals in the record book, nor will I ever, and would be perfectly happy to see all of the records and slams go away.

There’s CBL, and then there’s the 2% in which you are referring to which are 100% unethical. And I don’t think that there is anyone on this forum that would hunt a loin released the day they’ve arrive.

30 day release period make a lion fend for himself, and become acclimated with his surroundings.

I have no interest in hunting a CBL loin, or any loin for that matter. But as long as it’s legal, to each their own. What needs to happen is for the bad Apple outfitters to be weeded out and run out of the business! This applies to all animals, not just lions.

 

[Hank2211]

There’s CBL, and then there’s the 2% in which you are referring to which are 100% unethical. And I don’t think that there is anyone on this forum that would hunt a loin released the day they’ve arrive.

30 day release period make a lion fend for himself, and become acclimated with his surroundings.

I have no interest in hunting a CBL loin, or any loin for that matter. But as long as it’s legal, to each their own. What needs to happen is for the bad Apple outfitters to be weeded out and run out of the business! This applies to all animals, not just lions.

Aaron, agree completely.

But you see, this is how the argument is framed. Take the most extreme example and state with certainty that you must support it if you support CBL hunting. Because those who oppose CBL hunting, along with a group of organizations which want to be seen to be PC, have ethics, while the rest of us, and the Government of South Africa, have none.

I’m ok with where I stand.

 

[Catchaser]

@Rick Parsons I understand where you are coming from but I believe it opens up a path to the public opinion to frown upon all high fence hunting. We would not have the "three amigos" if not for high fence ranches in Texas. There someday could be the same scenario with Lions though I doubt it given their iconic image...as we know iconic animals take a higher priority in the ARA community.

But I digress too much, I feel that by SCI taking this stance you have at best questioned the ethics of member who have partaken in a CBL hunt. Though their were bad actors in this field, the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. And I understand SCI isn't banning the hunting of them but it has basically stated they are unethical and as a hunter when the largest safari organization doesn't support you, it is hard to justify that to the public.

As some have brought up where is the stance on the New Zealand estate hunts, many of these mutant bucks, etc. Though to say an Apex predator is different is fine, however this seems to be more of an emotional reasoning than any type of scientic one. I know you are walking a fine line between supporting hunters and gaining public opinion but the biggest uproar we ever had was over a wild lion.

Amen!

 

[IvW]

NOWHERE did Phasa condone hunting of lions that spent the night before in a cage .... pls get your detail verified. Min release period 30 days on only 8 accreditted properties.

We are destroying our own right to hunt by constantly attacking each other !!!!

Unfortunately many of these hunts are conducted by releasing the Lion/lioness the same day they are shot. PHASA have no teeth to enforce anything in this regard.

As for the 30 days on the only 8 accredited properties-Who actually polices or enforces that? Because it is not PHASA or Nature Conservation. Is it the owners of the 8 accredited properties themselves?

Who will enforce this for the 6 month minimum release which SCI are talking about? Then again I cannot get an answer regarding either the 6 month period or part of a breeding herd that permanently resides on the property, as the way I read it no CBL lions will make it into SCI.

The 8 accredited properties are free to buy hand raised(which is against SAPA regulations-of which there are only 8 in the entire country) lions from the remaining 92(+-) non accredited breeders and release them to be shot and not PHASA, SAPA or Nature Conservation have anything against that. Double standards or not?

Stop referring to people who have a difference of opinion to your own with regards to CBL as being attacking. The man has a difference of opinion, respect that, he is still a hunter and not a bunny hugger.

 

[Mike70560]

There’s CBL, and then there’s the 2% in which you are referring to which are 100% unethical. And I don’t think that there is anyone on this forum that would hunt a loin released the day they’ve arrive.

30 day release period make a lion fend for himself, and become acclimated with his surroundings.

I have no interest in hunting a CBL loin, or any loin for that matter. But as long as it’s legal, to each their own. What needs to happen is for the bad Apple outfitters to be weeded out and run out of the business! This applies to all animals, not just lions.

Out of curiosity from where does the 2% number come? I am assuming it is just a guess. As a guess I would say there are 100 properties selling CBL. Only 8 are approved for the 30 day period. I would venture to say the majority, if not the vast majority of CBLs are shot well within several days of being released.

I agree with your last statement 100%.