Scoped Double, Why?

[AkMike]

How many pipes are sticking out front?

 

[siml]

What's fair, but...

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg, I'm intrigued by the S2 and wondering how you like yours. Not meaning to highjack this thread, but the easy "scopability" of the S2 is a plus, as far as I'm concerned, should one be so inclined. You see some bashing of the S2 on the 'Net (lo and behold), but how does the "cocking button" and floating breech block or whatever it's called work in the real world? Is it possible to fumble a reload and end up dumping the breech block out of the rifle? Is the lack of ejectors a problem at all in your experience? Thanks!

I like mine a great deal. It is not everyone's cup of tea. It looks odd compared to a traditional double. And you are correct, it has drawn a lot of criticism, much of it parroting Terry Wieland, who absolutely hates it. His criticism, and it is a legitimate one - sort of - is that the gun decocks on opening to load a single fired round. Therefore, in a close/ nervous encounter with DG, a hunter could find himself with an uncocked weapon. Well - yes, I suppose that is true, but a lot of high end English doubles are made with auto safeties, which in effect do the same thing.

What I like. It is ergonomically, one of the most naturally pointing rifles that I have ever held. The open sights are generous and super easy to acquire. They are deliberately built a bit high to insure the rifle has the same pointability with the scope in place. It is designed from the ground up to use the Blaser detachable scope system. I have three sets of barrels with mine and all or extraordinarily accurate - with each individual barrel shooting MOA and 4 shot - two barrel clusters - all well under three inches at 100 meters (the .375 does 2.5 with the 300 gr TSX and the 30'o6 does 2 inches with the 180 gr TSX). I sight in with the right barrel which gives me single shot rifle accuracy to at least 250 meters with the .375 and .300 + with the '06. The second barrel is always "minute of kill zone" of any normal size animal all the way out there.

I used the .375 and '06 barrels on my trip to Moz last summer. The .375 double tapped a buffalo in the Zambezi Delta (dropping him before he could make the tall grass) and the '06 accounted for PG including a frontal sable at 150 yards +, oribi, and Nyala. I think they are fabulous rifles which should not be thought of in the way we tend to think of doubles. They can do the close in close encounter mission, but they truly are designed to give a hunter a longer range capability with the short range clean-up role always there in one's hip pocket.

With regard to the monoblock - it is ingenious. I own several sxs rifles and way too many sxs shotguns. All will eventually shoot loose - go off face - some a lot quicker than others. I am not sure that is possible with the S2. And the design allows the buying of new barrels and calibers which will fit without a gunsmith's attentions. I think they are amazing rifles and a real bargain.

 

[shuter]

I like mine a great deal. It is not everyone's cup of tea. It looks odd compared to a traditional double. And you are correct, it has drawn a lot of criticism, much of it parroting Terry Wieland, who absolutely hates it. His criticism, and it is a legitimate one - sort of - is that the gun decocks on opening to load a single fired round. Therefore, in a close/ nervous encounter with DG, a hunter could find himself with an uncocked weapon. Well - yes, I suppose that is true, but a lot of high end English doubles are made with auto safeties, which in effect do the same thing.

What I like. It is ergonomically, one of the most naturally pointing rifles that I have ever held. The open sights are generous and super easy to acquire. They are deliberately built a bit high to insure the rifle has the same pointability with the scope in place. It is designed from the ground up to use the Blaser detachable scope system. I have three sets of barrels with mine and all or extraordinarily accurate - with each individual barrel shooting MOA and 4 shot - two barrel clusters - all well under three inches at 100 meters (the .375 does 2.5 with the 300 gr TSX and the 30'o6 does 2 inches with the 180 gr TSX). I sight in with the right barrel which gives me single shot rifle accuracy to at least 250 meters with the .375 and .300 + with the '06. The second barrel is always "minute of kill zone" of any normal size animal all the way out there.

I used the .375 and '06 barrels on my trip to Moz last summer. The .375 double tapped a buffalo in the Zambezi Delta (dropping him before he could make the tall grass) and the '06 accounted for PG including a frontal sable at 150 yards +, oribi, and Nyala. I think they are fabulous rifles which should not be thought of in the way we tend to think of doubles. They can do the close in close encounter mission, but they truly are designed to give a hunter a longer range capability with the short range clean-up role always there in one's hip pocket.

With regard to the monoblock - it is ingenious. I own several sxs rifles and way too many sxs shotguns. All will eventually shoot loose - go off face - some a lot quicker than others. I am not sure that is possible with the S2. And the design allows the buying of new barrels and calibers which will fit without a gunsmith's attentions. I think they are amazing rifles and a real bargain.

Thanks much for the detailed reply! Sounds like an awesome rifle. You obviously don't view the lack of ejectors as a problem? Also, since I've never handled one, it sounds as though the monoblock could be released by bumping the opening lever when the rifle is already open, thereby releasing the monoblock and having it fall out...is this incorrect? And if not, is it merely theoretical stuff that's not a real issue? Thanks again!

 

[Red Leg]

I can not conceive of a way that the monoblock could possibly be accidently released. It takes a very conscious effort to remove it.

And no, I have no issues with lifters rather than ejectors. Some of the old timers preferred the somewhat quicker reload of ejectors, others the silent ability to reload a single fired round. You can think up scenarios for either advantage. As a client, and not likely to ever be a participant in an elephant culling shoot, I think two instantly available shots are a pretty powerful thing. And I can reload the S2 awfully quickly for any situation I am going to see.

 

[8 x 60]

As a number of posters have said, a lot of it has to do with (ageing) eyesight.
Whether a bolt gun can get four rounds accurately downrange faster is an ongoing argument..It will always be so. Part of the fun (See the post in "Rifles up to .375 - Mad minute"
Scoped or not (or maybe both/either with claw-mounts!) double rifles just seem right!

Ade (DR addicted)

 

[Bruce]

I do not own double rifles, BUT shot my first elephant with a 470 double, borrowed from the PH in Zimbabwe as I had a very quick PAC hunt arranged with no time to get export licences done for my own rifles...I was forced to shoot a young bull that charged us and the double performed well... my eyes are long gone and all my rifles are scoped. At the close ranges with the elephant, I was very comfortable with the iron sights and had no problem at all. I would not recommend this for longer shots on buff, unless your eyes are still brand new and working well.

 

[Velo Dog]

I have seen a couple of double vs bolt competitions before and the double always won. The guy on the double in this video knows what he is doing. The bolt guy could be faster. Especially if he kept the stock on his shoulder. Still, it is fun to watch.

Hi Wheels,

I totally agree with your statement "the bolt guy could be faster", and to be polite to the shooter here, "could be faster" is an understatement.

The man producing / hosting this video referred to the man ("Eric") with the bolt gun as an "expert shooter" to provide some competition against the Verney Carron double rifle, or words to that affect.
I just now watched this video and I have to say that the host's definition of "expert shooter" and my definition of that term are totally different.
The man ("Eric") with the bolt gun used it like a beginner IMO.

"Eric" cycled his bolt with his rifle butt removed from his shoulder and down well below his line of sight, much like someone who is just learning to fire his first rifle shots, as a child might do, unless corrected by their parent or older sibling, etc.
Judging by the way deceased movie actor Gary Cooper handled his bolt rifle in the movie: "Sergeant York", my bet is that he could have beat the double guy in this posted video for speed - a bloomin movie actor mind you.

Another fun video to watch for bolt rifle operation is at: www.heymUSA.com (with a Heym built Mauser in .404 Jeffery among other calibers, against a "charging buffalo target").
It shows very well the proper way to run a bolt rifle in a hurry.

Always a smartass,
Velo Dog

 

[edward]

old eyes are why i use a srs1 trijicon.doesnt look as nice as open sights but at least i can now use it.if im going to kill an animal i owe it a quick clean kill. i have to be able to see it to do that.

 

[Spooksar]

At 62 the Trijicon 1x4 scope makes a lot of difference when hunting and load development.

 

[DUGABOY1]

Hi Wheels,

I totally agree with your statement "the bolt guy could be faster", and to be polite to the shooter here, "could be faster" is an understatement.

The man producing / hosting this video referred to the man ("Eric") with the bolt gun as an "expert shooter" to provide some competition against the Verney Carron double rifle, or words to that affect.
I just now watched this video and I have to say that the host's definition of "expert shooter" and my definition of that term are totally different.
The man ("Eric") with the bolt gun used it like a beginner IMO.

"Eric" cycled his bolt with his rifle butt removed from his shoulder and down well below his line of sight, much like someone who is just learning to fire his first rifle shots, as a child might do, unless corrected by their parent or older sibling, etc.
Judging by the way deceased movie actor Gary Cooper handled his bolt rifle in the movie: "Sergeant York", my bet is that he could have beat the double guy in this posted video for speed - a bloomin movie actor mind you.

Another fun video to watch for bolt rifle operation is at: www.heymUSA.com (with a Heym built Mauser in .404 Jeffery among other calibers, against a "charging buffalo target").
It shows very well the proper way to run a bolt rifle in a hurry.

Always a smartass,
Velo Dog

Velo Dog , I have shot at Marty's place, and he is fast but I have also seen several double guys beat him for four shots. Chris Sells regularly beats Marty with Marty shooting his 404 bolt, and with him shooting a double rifle.
At our DRSS shoots the doubles consistantly beat the bolt guys for both speed and accuracy firing four shots on an 8 inch target at 25 yds the typical distance where a buffalo charge starts. This target has an 8 inch scoring rings with a two inch 10 ring in the center. The highest possible score is 40 points if all four shots hit the ten ring, and any shot that is outside the 8 inch scoreing is not counted.
Each shooter is on the line with two in the barrels for the double and one in the chamber , and three in the magazine for the bolt guns. The timing starts for each shooter when he fires his first shot, and stops when he fires shot four. The whole line is shooting at the same time with each shooter timed with a stop watch.
Speed means nothing if the shots are not placed where they need to be to stop a charge. The doubles consistantly beat the bolt guys for both speed and accuracy.
My personal best speed was four shots in four seconds flat, with a score of 36 points out of a possible 40 points if all shots had hit the ten ring. I was shooting a rifle with an automatic safety, and I forgot the safety and tried to fire shot three with the safety enguaged. If I had not forgotten the safety, I could have possibly shaved another second off that time. That extra second could have cost me my life if I had been stopping a Lion, or buffalo within 25 yards.
Doubles are not always faster for four shots but bolt rifles are not faster simply because a double must be reloaded for shot three and four. The bolt rifle has to be reloaded after every shot after the first shot. This all depends on the nut behind to rifle, but I'd bet on a good man with the double every time!
..............................Good hunting!

 

[Heym 450/400]

I'm not an owner (Yet) of a double rifle, but I see lots of pictures of doubles with scopes and I'm wondering why?

My idea of a double is a fairly close range gun that can be quick and very deadly in an instant when needed. Putting a scope in the way of the of or replacing the open sights seems wrong. I understand no one should be making snap shots at anything, but that's where the double excels.

If one has the time to shoulder and take careful aim through an optic other than maybe a red dot, shouldn't they be using a bolt action off sticks?

I'm sure there are good reasons why and look forward to hearing them.

Jim

You're correct in the first part of your post...a double really comes into its own during up close and dangerous work. However it can be so much more than that. A quality scoped double can be used off the sticks while taking careful aim as well...

Used properly it can and is the best of both worlds....I'm far from a double expert but if you're going to buy new, I would recommend having it fitted for a scope or on the bigger calibers at least a red dot. If you don't like it..take it off.

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo Dog , I have shot at Marty's place, and he is fast but I have also seen several double guys beat him for four shots. Chris Sells regularly beats Marty with Marty shooting his 404 bolt, and with him shooting a double rifle.
At our DRSS shoots the doubles consistantly beat the bolt guys for both speed and accuracy firing four shots on an 8 inch target at 25 yds the typical distance where a buffalo charge starts. This target has an 8 inch scoring rings with a two inch 10 ring in the center. The highest possible score is 40 points if all four shots hit the ten ring, and any shot that is outside the 8 inch scoreing is not counted.
Each shooter is on the line with two in the barrels for the double and one in the chamber , and three in the magazine for the bolt guns. The timing starts for each shooter when he fires his first shot, and stops when he fires shot four. The whole line is shooting at the same time with each shooter timed with a stop watch.
Speed means nothing if the shots are not placed where they need to be to stop a charge. The doubles consistantly beat the bolt guys for both speed and accuracy.
My personal best speed was four shots in four seconds flat, with a score of 36 points out of a possible 40 points if all shots had hit the ten ring. I was shooting a rifle with an automatic safety, and I forgot the safety and tried to fire shot three with the safety enguaged. If I had not forgotten the safety, I could have possibly shaved another second off that time. That extra second could have cost me my life if I had been stopping a Lion, or buffalo within 25 yards.
Doubles are not always faster for four shots but bolt rifles are not faster simply because a double must be reloaded for shot three and four. The bolt rifle has to be reloaded after every shot after the first shot. This all depends on the nut behind to rifle, but I'd bet on a good man with the double every time!
..............................Good hunting!

Hi Dugaboy,

I do not know who "Marty" or "Chris are.
Maybe "Marty" is the guy shooting the double-rifle plus, narrating in the video and maybe "Chris" is the guy shooting the bolt rifle that I thought was referred to as "Eric"? (not horribly important at this stage I recon).
Well anyway, my interpretation of Wheels' statement that "the bolt guy could be faster" was as if to say "the bolt guy could have used better technique" or "the bolt guy could have done better", or "the bolt guy could have tried harder" and etc.
I definitely was not implying that if we put a stop watch on those two shooters in the video that, it might have shown the bolt guy had actually shot faster than the double guy because, that obviously was not so, (no stop watch needed to verify the obvious).
And, generally speaking, I agree with you that at what amounts to typical the buffalo charge distances (from what I have read and only seen on video), a well practiced double shooter not always but usually always "beats" an equally practiced bolt shooter in speed/accuracy type competitions.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
It's probably my fault that you thought I was saying the bolt guy had possibly out-shot the double guy in the video.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

This pretty much says it all.

 

[spike.t]

This pretty much says it all.

....now marius all that video did was make me want another double.........................so advertising does work!!!

 

[sierraone]

....now marius all that video did was make me want another double.........................so advertising does work!!!

It makes me want my first one!!!

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It makes me want my first one!!!

Don't do it. My wife was NOT happy when I told her she's sleeping on the couch with her spot in the bed now reserved for my double....

 

[sierraone]

Don't do it. My wife was NOT happy when I told her she's sleeping on the couch with her spot in the bed now reserved for my double....

I'm safe then, was divorced 17 years ago!!!

 

[Bruce]

I'm safe then, was divorced 17 years ago!!!

So... how many doubles in your bed with you now?? NO EXCUSES, buddy!!

 

[sierraone]

So... how many doubles in your bed with you now?? NO EXCUSES, buddy!!

Still waiting on my first one. My only excuse in the past has been not enough MO ney! But will be at DSC in two weeks, and who knows what kind of deal may be may there, between Champlin and John Rigby . And then again I may come home pouting!