Shrinking Into Convalescence

[enysse]

Now that I live in a bigger city and work with a lot of people that are not hunters or are meat hunters....I can understand their hate for trophy hunters. They are not like me, they really have no understanding of how nature works. And they can't understand the respect a person like me has for a mature animal with large horns on there head. They think if a animal has large head gear it must be "rare". I concur it is rare, most animals don't grow old, they usually shot way before there time should be up. They think the "rare", large animals with large head gear should be protected, because they are so beautiful. I always remind them that buck fawn they shoot or small 6 pointer could have been a 10 pointer it's just that you killed it 3-4 years too soon.
People are too emotional now a days, we have become weak as a nation. People have lost touch with reality, they don't have to get their fingers dirty anymore. I think I understand how great nations fell apart in histories past....they lost touch with their roots, got greedy and started thinking they knew everything without doing any real work.

 

[Royal27]

People are too emotional now a days, we have become weak as a nation. People have lost touch with reality, they don't have to get their fingers dirty anymore. I think I understand how great nations fell apart in histories past....they lost touch with their roots, got greedy and started thinking they knew everything without doing any real work.[/QUOTE]

You nailed it - complacency and an arrogance that makes people think that they/we are different from every other nation in the history of the world.

 

[Velo Dog]

Now that I live in a bigger city and work with a lot of people that are not hunters or are meat hunters....I can understand their hate for trophy hunters. They are not like me, they really have no understanding of how nature works. And they can't understand the respect a person like me has for a mature animal with large horns on there head. They think if a animal has large head gear it must be "rare". I concur it is rare, most animals don't grow old, they usually shot way before there time should be up. They think the "rare", large animals with large head gear should be protected, because they are so beautiful. I always remind them that buck fawn they shoot or small 6 pointer could have been a 10 pointer it's just that you killed it 3-4 years too soon.
People are too emotional now a days, we have become weak as a nation. People have lost touch with reality, they don't have to get their fingers dirty anymore. I think I understand how great nations fell apart in histories past....they lost touch with their roots, got greedy and started thinking they knew everything without doing any real work.

Enysse,

Once again, we are in agreement.
In other words, I understand why large numbers of people hate or at least are annoyed by "Trophy Hunters" and many of these folks do not / refuse to understand the natural world whatsoever - their frame of reference seems to be largely provided by Walt Disney.

It's no secret that I do not bother with measuring any horns or antlers, etc. that I have taken.
Nonetheless, I do thoroughly understand that in the best places, where there are plentiful and well balanced numbers of both genders in whatever species is being hunted, a relatively few hunters always striving to bag only the most genetically superior stud males, probably will not make much difference to the over all population of that species.

Therefore, money rolling in from the Trophy Hunter types, does way more good than harm to a given specie, in bagging a relatively few "record book" size rams/bucks/bulls/boars, even if some are taken smack in the prime of their breeding years.
I totally get that, even though my enjoyment of hunting does not include carrying a tape measure on safari, participating in any gold medal or whatever contests, etc.

However, I just think that all of us hunters as a political group, could do a lot better by not projecting our perceived interest in hunting as primarily: "kill, kill, measure, measure, score, score".
Even though we know that is not who most of us are, it unfortunately is who much of the non-hunting general voting public thinks we are and that misperception is our own fault (Trophy Awards Banquets and such highly celebrated events that, the general public seems to find so distasteful).

To be perfectly honest, bearing in mind the common misperception (misperception that we ourselves have created) of today's International Hunter only shooting animals to measure their horns, antlers or teeth, I totally understand why so many non-hunters (not necessarily always anti-hunters) generally raise one eyebrow at us hunters, and don't bother to correct their children when they learn from school and television that all hunters are bad.

In my shade tree opinion, our world wide PR situation is in tatters, and I repeat that it is our own fault.

Blah, blah, blah - out,
Velo Dog.

 

[Nyati]

I try to educate non hunters as to why I try to shoot the animals with the largest horns, by explaining that they are the oldest, which would be naturally dead quite soon anyway, and need to be removed as a benefit to its species in order to diversify the gene pool.

 

[Velo Dog]

I try to educate non hunters as to why I try to shoot the animals with the largest horns, by explaining that they are the oldest, which would be naturally dead quite soon anyway, and need to be removed as a benefit to its species in order to diversify the gene pool.

Hi Nyati,

In all fairness to you, there are probably multiple species around the world, who's large horns indicate a geriatric status and therefore could stand to be removed from competing for food on their grazing/browsing ranges.

I do not know of any such species except perhaps elephant (tusks not horns, anyway same concept) but some have said I do not know very much so, that would clarify my rant here I guess.

In that vain, I have to respectfully disagree with you that, when some animal is sporting "the largest horns", it automatically indicates: "they are the oldest, which would be dead quite soon anyway, and needs to be removed as a benefit to its species, in order to diversify the gene pool", etc.

It is especially not true with buffalo, sable, elk, mule deer, eland and some others around the world that I am too senile to remember at the moment.
Sometimes, buffalo can be at their largest horn measurement yet actually be Too Young and thereby not be dominant enough to to breed.

In my simple mind, SCI wears a self inflicted black eye specifically for their scoring methods on buffalo, which seems to encourage the shooting of young buffaloes, simply to secure one's self a better score on one's buff.

When a number of game species' horns / antlers are at their longest "trophy measurements", generally speaking, they also are in their prime breeding years.

That impressive horn status is for the purpose of establishing superiority over the other male would-be breeders herd.

I do however agree with you that we should make it a point to explain ourselves with our honest reasons for what we do - at least when people bring up the subject themselves.

When someone with heads on their wall says they seek the largest horns in order to help manage the gene pool, as dumb as the non-hunters are, they will see right through that.

But again, I agree with you that we should not suffer silently when non-hunters bring up the subject.

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[enysse]

When someone with heads on their wall says they seek the largest horns in order to help manage the gene pool, as dumb as the non-hunters are, they will see right through that.

You are pretty much going to lose that argument every time.

 

[Pheroze]

Now that I live in a bigger city and work with a lot of people that are not hunters or are meat hunters....I can understand their hate for trophy hunters. They are not like me, they really have no understanding of how nature works. And they can't understand the respect a person like me has for a mature animal with large horns on there head. They think if a animal has large head gear it must be "rare". I concur it is rare, most animals don't grow old, they usually shot way before there time should be up. They think the "rare", large animals with large head gear should be protected, because they are so beautiful. I always remind them that buck fawn they shoot or small 6 pointer could have been a 10 pointer it's just that you killed it 3-4 years too soon.
People are too emotional now a days, we have become weak as a nation. People have lost touch with reality, they don't have to get their fingers dirty anymore. I think I understand how great nations fell apart in histories past....they lost touch with their roots, got greedy and started thinking they knew everything without doing any real work.

A good point! But, as a meat hunter I hope every year I get a tag for a young or female member of the species (denied this year). When we shop for meat it is always the young and female that are preferred (who goes to the supermarket to buy mutton or old bull?). So, I don't think there is any shame in taking a younger animal for the purposes of eating it from a well managed environment. If the meat isn't nice it has less chance of become a family favourite. Similarly, taking the older male as a trophy can allow for a better genetic mix in a well managed environment.

The only difference is that meat hunting is seen as more legitimate by the non-hunter because the reason is one they understand. Unless you are immersed in enjoying the outdoors you cannot identify with the trophy.

I think any message has to connect with something they already know, such as eating meat, or it is a tougher sell for sure. So, how do you connect trophy hunting with something that is already acceptable to outsiders?

 

[enysse]

I'll say it out loud, on here, most of my family and friends hate me...because I have a nice animal collection. I still hunt for meat but to increase the challenge I hunt for large, old animals too. Most people are what I call "settlers", they settle for the first legal animal and go home. Hell even I do it if I don't have time. And most people won't pay for hunting, they think it's evil if you do. I think that is stupid and I have told people so too. Nothing in this world is free and for the most part I have never regretted spending money on hunting. Some of the decision I made hunting, yes I wish I could have them back, but good memories out weigh the bad.

 

[Nyati]

Paul, Eric, I have oversimplified my answer, on European game, that is mostly correct. The oldest deer have the largest horns, same goes for sheep like Mouflon, or Barbary sheep.
On African game, I tell them I go after older specimens, which normally would have thicker horns, although not the longest.

 

[Velo Dog]

Paul, Eric, I have oversimplified my answer, on European game, that is mostly correct. The oldest deer have the largest horns, same goes for sheep like Mouflon, or Barbary sheep.
On African game, I tell them I go after older specimens, which normally would have thicker horns, although not the longest.

Hi again Nyati,

I pretty much agree with you here.
Except that deer - at least the 3 members I'm familiar with, Sitka black tail, Columbia black tail and Western mule deer in elderly condition grow progressively smaller and smaller racks until succumbing to the elements or parasites or my old .348 Winchester heh heh.
I think elk and moose are technically deer and they definitely regress in antler size each year during their old age but, not sure if caribou antlers regress in old age or not, even though they definitely are also deer.
Lastly, I do not know if the white tail family regresses in antler size as they get old and decrepit or not.

Thanks for bringing up the sheep, etc., I had forgotten about that group of animals.
I knew there must be more than only elephant that fit your description but I'm so thick headed that I could not remember the sheep family.

And just to clear the air on my feeble opinion of large of horn or long in the tooth animals being hunted, even though I love hunting primarily because I enjoy the activity and culture of hunting itself, tape measures and such things be damned.
I also very much enjoy cooking and that especially includes my sometimes hard won and also sometimes expensive game meat (not always cheap to hunt these days, even in the USA sometimes).

However, I have now and then, when hunting in general, (not specifically trying to impress anyone) taken some large of horn (or antler) game animal, simply because that's what zigged when it should have zagged.
These impressive horns/antlers I have proudly displayed in my house (right along with some rather average, if not smallish horns/antlers), as well as framed photographs of females and small males.

Therefore, I recon I'm primarily a meat hunter, for lack of a better term but I do have antlers, horns, hides and hunting/fishing photos displayed throughout my house.
These are definitely "trophies", no getting around that.

So, I guess what today's rant is about is that I am not confused as to why anyone wants horns or antlers on their wall, I certainly have many.
My confusion and disapproval is from those who make it a point to pretty much rub their - "my trophy is bigger than yours" attitude in other people's face, (like Tarzan beating on his chest and shrieking), to include in the faces of people who do not hunt.

Or, to pout and sulk when someone in camp gets a larger set of horns or antlers than they did - thaaaaat's mature.
I can't relate as to why it is so blooming important to such people and I am confused as to why these "Tarzans" can't see it is very bad political PR for the future of hunting in general.

I even sort of sympathize with folks who do not care to see or hear about someone getting some much celebrated award or certificate or plaque, etc., because he or she had enough money to do a hunt for some monster score animal that, the rest of us definitely could never afford.

For me, I equate the non-hunter's discomfort with something like me having to sit in a restaurant while someone's brat stands on the seat behind me, staring down at myself and my wife as we're trying to have a peaceful supper together.
Or when the fat lady at the table beside us decides to breast feed her child while I'm trying to otherwise enjoy a milkshake - very offensive IMO.

Some of us dig on "trophy hunting" talk and pictures, some of us don't.
Some of us dig on children, some of us don't.
I totally understand the non hunter preferring we not rub the sport into their faces.
Hell, I prefer trophy hunters not rub their sport into my face - LOL (refer back to Tarzan comparison).

Blah, blah, out.
Velo Dog.

 

[bluey]

agreed on all accounts , young buck

but on the same token , why should we have to endure their , hunting is wrong , hunting is bad bullshit .......
I for one are sick and tired of trying talk to people that are in my face about hunting ,or fishing (which in all honesty , I cop more shit about being a professional fisherman ) but once most of these people find out l hunt , it becomes quite a colorfull conversation .
which nearly everytime I compose myself amicably ,if l don't mind saying so , and can usually make them at least stop and think about what they are saying , with some common sense questions or facts.
but when the same people come back three or four times , I don't mind loosing my shit at them and fairly setting em straight
I too have a neat little collection of trophies , both big and small along with photos of hinds and spikers , and l display them with pride on show all through my home ,in fact in near ready to start to convert my poolroom into a trophy show place , as its getting quite crowded , with a few more on the way home soon and another trip to start in 5 weeks .
if some one visits my home and is offended by them they can turn around and !@#$ right off.
if l go to someones home and some thing there offends my taste I shut my mouth and respectfully either put up with it or leave peacefully

im no chest beating ocker , or anything , but if im having a quiet conversation , with a hunting buddy about hunting /fishing ,work or pleasure . from here on out im going stick it straight into any of these dickheads , male or female .......
if they open their big mouth im going to be the one that jumps straight in it .
since this cecil circus,im copping heaps of shit about hunting a bueatiful lioness , last year , and now the fact that its looking 100% that's she will never come home to Australia .these morons are really stepping it up in some of the public places I go to .
and I don't mind tellin ya , im going to get my self into a bit of trouble over this real soon ........

sorry if im carrying on , velo , its not aimed at you ,mate
im just really pissed off and a tad confrontational , right now ........
peace bro

 

[enysse]

Bluey you need to take a boat to Africa next time and take your stuff home with you

 

[Velo Dog]

agreed on all accounts , young buck

but on the same token , why should we have to endure their , hunting is wrong , hunting is bad bullshit .......
I for one are sick and tired of trying talk to people that are in my face about hunting ,or fishing (which in all honesty , I cop more shit about being a professional fisherman ) but once most of these people find out l hunt , it becomes quite a colorfull conversation .
which nearly everytime I compose myself amicably ,if l don't mind saying so , and can usually make them at least stop and think about what they are saying , with some common sense questions or facts.
but when the same people come back three or four times , I don't mind loosing my shit at them and fairly setting em straight
I too have a neat little collection of trophies , both big and small along with photos of hinds and spikers , and l display them with pride on show all through my home ,in fact in near ready to start to convert my poolroom into a trophy show place , as its getting quite crowded , with a few more on the way home soon and another trip to start in 5 weeks .
if some one visits my home and is offended by them they can turn around and !@#$ right off.
if l go to someones home and some thing there offends my taste I shut my mouth and respectfully either put up with it or leave peacefully

im no chest beating ocker , or anything , but if im having a quiet conversation , with a hunting buddy about hunting /fishing ,work or pleasure . from here on out im going stick it straight into any of these dickheads , male or female .......
if they open their big mouth im going to be the one that jumps straight in it .
since this cecil circus,im copping heaps of shit about hunting a bueatiful lioness , last year , and now the fact that its looking 100% that's she will never come home to Australia .these morons are really stepping it up in some of the public places I go to .
and I don't mind tellin ya , im going to get my self into a bit of trouble over this real soon ........

sorry if im carrying on , velo , its not aimed at you ,mate
im just really pissed off and a tad confrontational , right now ........
peace bro

Oye Bluey,

I'm with you mate.
As I have quipped to more than one self rightious anti hunter, "oh, are you a vegetarian ?"
Or, "oh, I guess no animal died for those leather shoes on your feet."

One fellow I worked with for 20 years is married to a nut who once tried to shame me because I am a hunter.
So, I asked the vegetarian question of her (knowing she is not a vegetarian) very pointedly and she shut her pie hole.
A few days later I told my friend I regretted having to verbally block his wife like that and he said it was her fault.

Likewise, one of my wife's friends is a non hunter but not an anti hunter.
Sadly though, her husband is a screeching eunuch, who I had to admonish for "preaching his religion" (global warming and related propoganda) in my home.

People (and their spouses) know they are being offensive when they hurl insults at other people without provocation.
And I do not think hunters should just lay down and be anyone's whipping boy.

Conversely, I think we should be respectful toward others who are not hunters but not necessarily anti hunters either.
Some of these folks perhaps might otherwise be willing to listen to our point of view if we don't present ourselves in a distasteful way.

Shooting things just to measure the horns as well as sometimes even receiving awards for doing so is very offensive to huge numbers of people in many cultures around the world.
And it sounds like you and I agree on many things (great minds think alike).

Anyway, cheers for now,
Velo Dog.

 

[Pondoro]

Some common sense among ourselves is also called for. Imagine the effect on the average citizen when they see pics of ivory beeing axed from an elephant after a legal trophy hunt..

Do you expect them to see the difference between that and a rhino left for dead after his horns removed by poachers..??

Be careful about what you post these days..

 

[Nyati]

Hi again Nyati,

I pretty much agree with you here.
Except that deer - at least the 3 members I'm familiar with, Sitka black tail, Columbia black tail and Western mule deer in elderly condition grow progressively smaller and smaller racks until succumbing to the elements or parasites or my old .348 Winchester heh heh.
I think elk and moose are technically deer and they definitely regress in antler size each year during their old age but, not sure if caribou antlers regress in old age or not, even though they definitely are also deer.
Lastly, I do not know if the white tail family regresses in antler size as they get old and decrepit or not.

Thanks for bringing up the sheep, etc., I had forgotten about that group of animals.
I knew there must be more than only elephant that fit your description but I'm so thick headed that I could not remember the sheep family.

And just to clear the air on my feeble opinion of large of horn or long in the tooth animals being hunted, even though I love hunting primarily because I enjoy the activity and culture of hunting itself, tape measures and such things be damned.
I also very much enjoy cooking and that especially includes my sometimes hard won and also sometimes expensive game meat (not always cheap to hunt these days, even in the USA sometimes).

However, I have now and then, when hunting in general, (not specifically trying to impress anyone) taken some large of horn (or antler) game animal, simply because that's what zigged when it should have zagged.
These impressive horns/antlers I have proudly displayed in my house (right along with some rather average, if not smallish horns/antlers), as well as framed photographs of females and small males.

Therefore, I recon I'm primarily a meat hunter, for lack of a better term but I do have antlers, horns, hides and hunting/fishing photos displayed throughout my house.
These are definitely "trophies", no getting around that.

So, I guess what today's rant is about is that I am not confused as to why anyone wants horns or antlers on their wall, I certainly have many.
My confusion and disapproval is from those who make it a point to pretty much rub their - "my trophy is bigger than yours" attitude in other people's face, (like Tarzan beating on his chest and shrieking), to include in the faces of people who do not hunt.

Or, to pout and sulk when someone in camp gets a larger set of horns or antlers than they did - thaaaaat's mature.
I can't relate as to why it is so blooming important to such people and I am confused as to why these "Tarzans" can't see it is very bad political PR for the future of hunting in general.

I even sort of sympathize with folks who do not care to see or hear about someone getting some much celebrated award or certificate or plaque, etc., because he or she had enough money to do a hunt for some monster score animal that, the rest of us definitely could never afford.

For me, I equate the non-hunter's discomfort with something like me having to sit in a restaurant while someone's brat stands on the seat behind me, staring down at myself and my wife as we're trying to have a peaceful supper together.
Or when the fat lady at the table beside us decides to breast feed her child while I'm trying to otherwise enjoy a milkshake - very offensive IMO.

Some of us dig on "trophy hunting" talk and pictures, some of us don't.
Some of us dig on children, some of us don't.
I totally understand the non hunter preferring we not rub the sport into their faces.
Hell, I prefer trophy hunters not rub their sport into my face - LOL (refer back to Tarzan comparison).

Blah, blah, out.
Velo Dog.

Quite right, Paul our deer Red, Fallow, Roe are also regressive a few years before their natural death. I just don´t expect the average greenie to know all that. In general they are pretty ignorant on the facts of wildlife !

Fully agree on the rest of your post, after all trophy shooting is just a question of money, I could take you just a 15 min. drive from my home to a farm where you can shoot a Red or Fallow deer of any size you like, you just have to pay and the PH will take you to it. By the way he is a friend of mine.

 

[Velo Dog]

Quite right, Paul our deer Red, Fallow, Roe are also regressive a few years before their natural death. I just don´t expect the average greenie to know all that. In general they are pretty ignorant on the facts of wildlife !

Fully agree on the rest of your post, after all trophy shooting is just a question of money, I could take you just a 15 min. drive from my home to a farm where you can shoot a Red or Fallow deer of any size you like, you just have to pay and the PH will take you to it. By the way he is a friend of mine.

From what I have observed, the following is my opinion of most of the greenies I have been around for any length of time:
I agree that the average Greenie is often no more than a seething emotional wreck and does not have room in their tormented mind for factual information.
Some (few) are fully aware of the facts but to further their Political Agenda (which is to control other people), they pretend the facts do not exist or, that the facts are somehow invalid.

I am envious that you have hunting so close to home.
My house, at the very least has been visited by lynx, wolf, bear and moose but, hunting is unlawful close by, because my house is within the City of Anchorage up here in Alaska.

 

[Velo Dog]

Some common sense among ourselves is also called for. Imagine the effect on the average citizen when they see pics of ivory beeing axed from an elephant after a legal trophy hunt..

Do you expect them to see the difference between that and a rhino left for dead after his horns removed by poachers..??

Be careful about what you post these days..

Pondoro,

Once again, we are in agreement.
Posting photos on the internet of elephant tusks being chopped out of the scull is inappropriate - imo because it is too shocking for many non hunters to see.
And, as usual I believe many non hunters (not talking about anti hunters yet) might otherwise be willing to listen to our opinion.
However, if we shock the non hunter's false sense of "wilderness tranquility", their ears are probably going to slam shut when we try to reason with them.
Many people today are so soft that seeing photos of dead animals is too shocking for them, much less photos of a dead elephant being butchered.

When I was a Homicide Detective, I saw a young Police Officer vomit the first time he set eyes on a dead person.
And, I think many people today have comparable psychological issues in seeing dead animals being butchered (even just in photos), perhaps not as abrupt as vomiting but nonetheless dead animal photos, especially bloody ones, are just too much for many folks these days.

IMO, it is too much to ask of us to hide from these softies and never mention our life style or, never share photos of same with other hunters.
So, I am not one to avoid posting photos of some animal I have taken but, I definitely am one to be careful about selecting my photos to not be gory or disrespectful and I'm also one to avoid talking like a drunken sailor about my adventures with rifle or shotgun.
It seems best for our cause, in terms of PR, to keep our narratives and photos as professional as possible, within reason.
I strongly feel that we can all be grownups about this and still have a great time.
That of course means that the non hunters need to meet us half way and they should just have to shrug off reasonably well thought-out photos of us hunters, with our game animals that we have taken ethically.

One place in Namibia that I had been considering booking with a few years back released a DVD advertising their place.
Toward the end of the production, it showed a segment on their available bird hunting.
It was what I presume were two clients, riding in the back of a bush cruiser, baseball hats on backwards, hanging on with one hand and clutching each a shotgun with the other hand.
The driver was racing around in a sparsely foliated area, literally chasing guinea fowl.
Now and then some would flush and the driver would skid to a stop and the clients would blaze away with their shotguns, laughing and howling things like "we really put the hurt on 'em that time!" and such.
Dead and dying birds (some still flopping about in the dirt) in the background as the clients howled and high fived, etc.
I threw their DVD in my garbage can and probably needless to say, I did not book with them.

As you so wisely put it:
"Some common sense among ourselves is also called for".

None of the above is in regards to the anti-hunters,
They are true haters.
Haters will hate no matter what we do or say.
If there were no hunters in the history of the world, they would hate people who trout fish or people who ride motor bikes or people who do crossword puzzles or people who play the harmonica or people who are good at geometry, or whatever - they just love to hate and they will never quit hating some particular category of people, no matter what - they seem to truly rejoice in it.

Is it time for Gin & Tonics yet ?
Yes I do think it is, yes quite.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Pondoro]

G/Ts it is.....we have a nice,warm august here..

Mind you , the only gin I use is Gordons Dry...none of the others do anything for me..

 

[Velo Dog]

Bombay Sapphire is my favorite way to take my "Vitamin G".

However, the only unsatisfactory gin I have ever tried was lime flavored Tangueray.

Perhaps the lime flavoring was some artificial chemical or some such.

But whatever it was made from, I could not drink it without showing everyone my sad face.

It was wretched.

 

[enysse]

It's not even funny anymore, you post any hunting pictures on facebook anymore and the anti's and even non-hunters jump on it like it's match thrown on straw pile. They will go on and on about how they support meat hunters but us "sport" hunters need to become extinct. And then there are geniuses that come out and say hunting was once needed to put food on the table, but that is what we have supermarkets for now. A lot of them are there 20's.....this world is going to hell.