What is the ultimate stopping rifle..?

[IdaRam]

Well this is certainly getting interesting.

The basic fundamental of a forum is to seek and share knowledge as well as share experiences and opinions with the understanding, ignoring absolutes - not everyone is going to agree.

As the discussion seems now to have drifted to a first time buffalo hunter with a new double, I am inclined to offer my 2 cents - because I AM THAT GUY.

Those of you who have followed my initial contributions to this forum know my story; for those who haven't, long story short - at 65, not having hunted anything larger than a pheasant in the previous 40 years, armed with a Heym 450-400 Double, a Heym 375 H&H, and a Weatherby 300 mag, I set out to experience the glory and romance of Hemingway, Roosevelt, Selous, etc.

A broken femur eliminated a planned Safari Prep Course; my PH rescheduled me to the last hunt of the season rather than forfeit all my upfront fees.

The PH was fully aware of my lack of experience, and equally aware of my absence of an agenda. I was there for the experience - not a body count.

With respect to Red Leg's comment attributed to his friend having concerns about a newbie with a double - all I can say is "DAMN STRAIGHT". I would not want a PH who wasn't.

To lend some personal insight; in addition to my tenure as a professional pilot, I was very active on the airshow circuit flying a variety of WWII fighters and bombers. As it pertains to this discussion, I was also an instructor and check pilot in most of those aircraft. I considered every one of those flights as having the potential to get me killed.

A PH is no different, they have the right and obligation to question their clients ability. They are ultimately responsible for that client's safety and have a tolerance factor of zero for failure.

I witnessed several of my cohorts allow a situation to get out of control because they were being a "nice guy", or the person they were checking out was wealthy and they didn't want to alienate them. Whatever the reason, the result was the same - they're dead.

While in no means am I any kind of expert, nor do I share the years of experience many of you do - but, 3 elephants, 6 cape buffalo, 3 hippos, 2 crocs, a rhino, a lion, and around 40 plains game animals does give me a perspective.

To be effective with a double means up close - sometimes really close; if a PH has concerns about putting a client, any client - new or not, in that kind of a situation on their first pairing - LET HIM.

If a client takes offense - LET HIM, because if the PH isn't concerned - you are not getting what you're paying for.

Did I shoot my double on that first trip - you bet, I shot 3 cape buffalo with it. But not before I had shot a number of plains game and a cape buffalo with my 375.

I'll segue back to the caliber discussion after dinner.

Forgive me, slightly off topic.
Welcome Franco. Glad to have you here. As the son of a fighter pilot who flew P-38’s in WWII (96th FS, 82nd FG) thanks for the enjoyment you’ve shared with a lot of people as they’ve attended air shows and heard the growl of those powerful old warbird engines. I imagine it was quite a highlight of your career as well!

 

[Franco]

Forgive me, slightly off topic.
Welcome Franco. Glad to have you here. As the son of a fighter pilot who flew P-38’s in WWII (96th FS, 82nd FG) thanks for the enjoyment you’ve shared with a lot of people as they’ve attended air shows and heard the growl of those powerful old warbird engines. I imagine it was quite a highlight of your career as well!

IdaRam,

I appreciate your kind words but the thanks go to your father and the countless men and women whose sacrifices assured us the freedoms we enjoy today.

It is in their honor and to keep the memory of their conflict alive we continue to fly these airplanes.

For me personally, it was a way to maintain a rapport with my (our) father's generation; and they didn't refer to them as "The Greatest Generation" for nothing.

As for my father, he was a tank commander at the Battle of Luzon - he would never talk about it and we never pressed. Although I did drive tractors as a kid and owned a bulldozer, it was a hell of a lot more fun ripping through the sky in a P-38 than dragging a disc through a vineyard.

 

[Zambezi]

the only client that really worried him was a first time buffalo hunter with his new double rifle

Funny how everyone reads a single sentence differently.
Two words are important in the quoted sentence : FIRST and NEW.

I understand the PH to be saying or implying that a FIRST time buffalo hunter generally has no other DG experience and this is his first time testing himself against DG. Secondly, a NEW double hasn't been tested in the field against DG and therefore the client has probably only shot off sticks at the range or maybe taken some PG back home.

He is inexperienced and so is his shiny new double. It may be a generalisation but the PH would generally be giving this client a hard look. Inexperienced man and equipment, what could go wrong...?

 

[Red Leg]

Funny how everyone reads a single sentence differently.
Two words are important in the quoted sentence : FIRST and NEW.

I understand the PH to be saying or implying that a FIRST time buffalo hunter generally has no other DG experience and this is his first time testing himself against DG. Secondly, a NEW double hasn't been tested in the field against DG and therefore the client has probably only shot off sticks at the range or maybe taken some PG back home.

He is inexperienced and so is his shiny new double. It may be a generalisation but the PH would generally be giving this client a hard look. Inexperienced man and equipment, what could go wrong...?

Pretty much exactly.

Well this is certainly getting interesting.

The basic fundamental of a forum is to seek and share knowledge as well as share experiences and opinions with the understanding, ignoring absolutes - not everyone is going to agree.

As the discussion seems now to have drifted to a first time buffalo hunter with a new double, I am inclined to offer my 2 cents - because I AM THAT GUY.

Those of you who have followed my initial contributions to this forum know my story; for those who haven't, long story short - at 65, not having hunted anything larger than a pheasant in the previous 40 years, armed with a Heym 450-400 Double, a Heym 375 H&H, and a Weatherby 300 mag, I set out to experience the glory and romance of Hemingway, Roosevelt, Selous, etc.

A broken femur eliminated a planned Safari Prep Course; my PH rescheduled me to the last hunt of the season rather than forfeit all my upfront fees.

The PH was fully aware of my lack of experience, and equally aware of my absence of an agenda. I was there for the experience - not a body count.

With respect to Red Leg's comment attributed to his friend having concerns about a newbie with a double - all I can say is "DAMN STRAIGHT". I would not want a PH who wasn't.

To lend some personal insight; in addition to my tenure as a professional pilot, I was very active on the airshow circuit flying a variety of WWII fighters and bombers. As it pertains to this discussion, I was also an instructor and check pilot in most of those aircraft. I considered every one of those flights as having the potential to get me killed.

A PH is no different, they have the right and obligation to question their clients ability. They are ultimately responsible for that client's safety and have a tolerance factor of zero for failure.

I witnessed several of my cohorts allow a situation to get out of control because they were being a "nice guy", or the person they were checking out was wealthy and they didn't want to alienate them. Whatever the reason, the result was the same - they're dead.

While in no means am I any kind of expert, nor do I share the years of experience many of you do - but, 3 elephants, 6 cape buffalo, 3 hippos, 2 crocs, a rhino, a lion, and around 40 plains game animals does give me a perspective.

To be effective with a double means up close - sometimes really close; if a PH has concerns about putting a client, any client - new or not, in that kind of a situation on their first pairing - LET HIM.

If a client takes offense - LET HIM, because if the PH isn't concerned - you are not getting what you're paying for.

Did I shoot my double on that first trip - you bet, I shot 3 cape buffalo with it. But not before I had shot a number of plains game and a cape buffalo with my 375.

I'll segue back to the caliber discussion after dinner.

Let me explain my point just a bit more. Are there people who can show up in Africa, with a firearm type with which they have had little previous experience, and take DG? Of course they can. It is why PH's are considered "professional."

But is it the best idea? I don't think so. Particularly if using a traditional double in a traditional way with iron sights.

My observations:

Most clients these days, even if very experienced hunters, have little practical experience with iron sights. The same experienced hunter on safari in 1935 or 1955 would have had extensive iron sight experience even if he had never previously held a double. It is a different shooting art and requires dedication to master. The typical SAAM course lasts around four days and expends a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition. The army takes quite a bit longer, and the Marine Corps much longer to train a rifleman to a very basic skill level. I am not saying the courses aren't useful - they are - but they do not produce a trained rifleman.

Secondly, and I frankly think the more compelling issue, is that most buffalo hunts today last 7 - 10 days. During that period, the client may only get one or two opportunities to take an animal about which he has perhaps dreamed for decades and saved for years. Moreover, a first buffalo is also likely the first dangerous game animal he will have attempted to shoot. Rarely is the shot a clear one at forty yards. It is just as likely to be at seventy yards through dark brush at an old bull standing together with two of his pals in dense shadow.

Attempt the shot or walk away? If a first time buffalo hunter, the pressure to attempt the shot is enormous for all sorts of reasons. Had he brought along a rifle that closely resembled the one he had used on deer for previous 25-years - let's say a scoped .375 or even .416 - sorting out a dark target against a dark background through a narrow shooting window is absolutely possible - even relatively easy. Whereas, with irons or even a red dot, the prudent action would likely be to walk away. Remember. whether using a .375 or a 500/416, the client's one and only critical responsibility is to put that first bullet exactly where it needs to go.

Return to Africa as Stewart Granger and make a nostalgia hunt with a classic double? Absolutely. So many things will be so much more familiar the second time even if hunting a different country. Most importantly, it is far easier to turn down a marginal shot when that first bull is on the wall at home.

Can someone be successful with a double on a first DG hunt? Of course. I simply maintain most beginning buffalo hunters would be best served making that critical first shot with a rifle that most closely resembled that familiar 30-06 or .270 at home.

 

[Red Leg]

IdaRam,

I appreciate your kind words but the thanks go to your father and the countless men and women whose sacrifices assured us the freedoms we enjoy today.

It is in their honor and to keep the memory of their conflict alive we continue to fly these airplanes.

For me personally, it was a way to maintain a rapport with my (our) father's generation; and they didn't refer to them as "The Greatest Generation" for nothing.

As for my father, he was a tank commander at the Battle of Luzon - he would never talk about it and we never pressed. Although I did drive tractors as a kid and owned a bulldozer, it was a hell of a lot more fun ripping through the sky in a P-38 than dragging a disc through a vineyard.

I remember heading out to the old Chenault Field in Lake Charles every couple of years with my father to watch the Confederate Air Force strut its stuff. The P-38 was always the most impressive to me, particularly on a low level pass. My father was a bombardier-navigator in B-25's in the China Burma theater. DFC and shot down twice. They were a special group of men in a special time.

 

[Wheels]

I used to think the 500J/505G was the low end that would knock an animal down or at least stop it in it's tracks with a less than perfect shot. Then I saw the much maligned 460 Weatherby stop a buffalo in its tracks and have had to adjust my thinking. I'm not saying the 460W is the ultimate stopping rifle, but feel that is the starting point.

As people like Bell have taught us, nothing beats a well placed shot.

 

[grand veneur]

As far as the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum is concerned, I have shot about 15 buffalos with it and can therefore confirm some about its effectiveness. Sure, you have also to aim well for a good shot placement, but if something does not go as planned, you have potential in reserve when it comes to stopping and killing. I can compare because I have also shot buffalos and elephants with other cartridges. It's a shame that the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum has such a bad reputation.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I remember heading out to the old Chenault Field in Lake Charles every couple of years with my father to watch the Confederate Air Force strut its stuff. The P-38 was always the most impressive to me, particularly on a low level pass. My father was a bombardier-navigator in B-25's in the China Burma theater. DFC and shot down twice. They were a special group of men in a special time.

Which were fitted with "Allison's v12" ?
idk why, personal fascination. distinct exhaust note.

 

[Franco]

Which were fitted with "Allison's v12" ?
idk why, personal fascination. distinct exhaust note.

Dan,
The P-38, P-40, and early P-51's ran the Allison V12 - 1710. There were different model variants, the most notable was in the -38, one engine rotated clockwise - the other counter-clockwise. On the 38 the exhaust was ducted through the turbo which contributed to its' unique sound.

 

[Franco]

I remember heading out to the old Chenault Field in Lake Charles every couple of years with my father to watch the Confederate Air Force strut its stuff. The P-38 was always the most impressive to me, particularly on a low level pass. My father was a bombardier-navigator in B-25's in the China Burma theater. DFC and shot down twice. They were a special group of men in a special time.

Red Leg,

If you were anywhere in close proximity to Lake Charles and witnessed a P-38 coming through wide open and on the deck - I'll have to plead the 5th.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Dan,
The P-38, P-40, and early P-51's ran the Allison V12 - 1710. There were different model variants, the most notable was in the -38, one engine rotated clockwise - the other counter-clockwise. On the 38nthe exhaust was ducted through the turbo which contibuted to its' unique sound.

Many Thanks, .. Lockheed's P-38. What a Machine, as beautiful as Gene Tierney of the day.

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg,

If you were anywhere in close proximity to Lake Charles and witnessed a P-38 coming through wide open and on the deck - I'll have to plead the 5th.

Probably not in the late sixties? Whoever flew that big forked tail bird faced fewer airshow restrictions in those days. He roared down the taxiway nearest the stands at about 200 feet. Simply awesome. Had I not wanted to be in the military so much, I likely would have eventually joined the Air Force.

 

[Franco]

Probably not in the late sixties? Whoever flew that big forked tail bird faced fewer airshow restrictions in those days. He roared down the taxiway nearest the stands at about 200 feet. Simply awesome. Had I not wanted to be in the military so much, I likely would have eventually joined the Air Force.

That would have been my good friend and mentor Lefty Gardner.

The attached picture is me - in my younger days.

 

[Red Leg]

He could drive that bird.

One of my father’s old friends flew the lightning in Europe. It was perfect for the Pacific, but as he described it, the P-38 was just fast enough to “escape“ a FW-190 if you had a bit of altitude. However, stripped of armament and flying photo recon, it was as untouchable as a Mosquito. Simply an amazing piece of technology.

 

[Frederik]

Some nice history of flying machines for sure.

Back to the topic I played a bit with Quickload the reloading app.

The .585 Nyati 2.8" loaded with a 750gr Woodleigh Weldcore bullet 150gr of RL17 powder and that will give you 2450fp and almsot 10 000 Ft/lbs of energy !!!!!!!!!!!

That might be the ultimate stopping rifle but defintely not practical.

 

[John458Lott]

nope…bigger is not always better…470-500 NE IF you can 100% place that first shot…i’ll take a DR please over a bolt in that situation

I'd agree! The one that you never miss with!!!

 

[Chaplin]

Krieghoff Essencia Big Five in 500NE

 

[grand veneur]

Some nice history of flying machines for sure.

Back to the topic I played a bit with Quickload the reloading app.

The .585 Nyati 2.8" loaded with a 750gr Woodleigh Weldcore bullet 150gr of RL17 powder and that will give you 2450fp and almsot 10 000 Ft/lbs of energy !!!!!!!!!!!

That might be the ultimate stopping rifle but defintely not practical.

That's right, there is an upper practical limit.

This limit is 500 Jeffery for a bolt action rifle and 577 Nitro Express, maybe 600 Nitro Express for a DR. The latter cartridge as a caliber for a stopping rifle can be discussed, but is a different topic. Nevertheless, one must not forget that the big bore DR are heavy rifles and therefore their weight alone is a problem when it comes to walking in the bush for hours. The days of gun bearers are over.

What goes beyond that is up to everyone, but one don't need something like that, so the reasons why some people get such rifles are very different and not determined by practice.

 

[IvW]

Some nice history of flying machines for sure.

Back to the topic I played a bit with Quickload the reloading app.

The .585 Nyati 2.8" loaded with a 750gr Woodleigh Weldcore bullet 150gr of RL17 powder and that will give you 2450fp and almsot 10 000 Ft/lbs of energy !!!!!!!!!!!

That might be the ultimate stopping rifle but defintely not practical.

It is gonna knock you out first shot and you wont feel the pain when you get killed by the elephant....

 

[Daniel Cary]

Well this is certainly getting interesting.

The basic fundamental of a forum is to seek and share knowledge as well as share experiences and opinions with the understanding, ignoring absolutes - not everyone is going to agree.

As the discussion seems now to have drifted to a first time buffalo hunter with a new double, I am inclined to offer my 2 cents - because I AM THAT GUY.

Those of you who have followed my initial contributions to this forum know my story; for those who haven't, long story short - at 65, not having hunted anything larger than a pheasant in the previous 40 years, armed with a Heym 450-400 Double, a Heym 375 H&H, and a Weatherby 300 mag, I set out to experience the glory and romance of Hemingway, Roosevelt, Selous, etc.

A broken femur eliminated a planned Safari Prep Course; my PH rescheduled me to the last hunt of the season rather than forfeit all my upfront fees.

The PH was fully aware of my lack of experience, and equally aware of my absence of an agenda. I was there for the experience - not a body count.

With respect to Red Leg's comment attributed to his friend having concerns about a newbie with a double - all I can say is "DAMN STRAIGHT". I would not want a PH who wasn't.

To lend some personal insight; in addition to my tenure as a professional pilot, I was very active on the airshow circuit flying a variety of WWII fighters and bombers. As it pertains to this discussion, I was also an instructor and check pilot in most of those aircraft. I considered every one of those flights as having the potential to get me killed.

A PH is no different, they have the right and obligation to question their clients ability. They are ultimately responsible for that client's safety and have a tolerance factor of zero for failure.

I witnessed several of my cohorts allow a situation to get out of control because they were being a "nice guy", or the person they were checking out was wealthy and they didn't want to alienate them. Whatever the reason, the result was the same - they're dead.

While in no means am I any kind of expert, nor do I share the years of experience many of you do - but, 3 elephants, 6 cape buffalo, 3 hippos, 2 crocs, a rhino, a lion, and around 40 plains game animals does give me a perspective.

To be effective with a double means up close - sometimes really close; if a PH has concerns about putting a client, any client - new or not, in that kind of a situation on their first pairing - LET HIM.

If a client takes offense - LET HIM, because if the PH isn't concerned - you are not getting what you're paying for.

Did I shoot my double on that first trip - you bet, I shot 3 cape buffalo with it. But not before I had shot a number of plains game and a cape buffalo with my 375.

I'll segue back to the caliber discussion after dinner.

Simply, Thank You For everyone's Service. The Highest Honor & Not Forgotten.
"The Cold Blue" came across this Documentary yrs. ago. Left an impression, hope it Finds you Guy's well.