When showing off your new Elephant rifle goes wrong

[Backyardsniper]

I was not offended by this story and see it for the silliness that it was. I have been shooting the rear trigger first on my double since I started shooting it. For me in the heat of the moment for the second shot its easier to reach the front trigger than the rear. Probably just not enough practice but now I'm comfortable with this approach and can fire two shots rapidly and accurately using this method.

HH

I'm gonna give that a go and see how that works

 

[xausa]

This posting is not to address the behavioral aspects but I have some confusion regarding a post by @xausa . It was stated that if the bullet weight is doubled the recoil energy will quadruple. Since recoil of a firearm involves Newtonian rules physics the formula for the recoil energy is a variation of 1/2M.V2. As such a doubling of M only doubles the recoil and in the case of two shot fired in rapid sequence the total recoil energy would be the same, the difference being the absorbing of recoil from the first shot prior to the second.

I wouldn't hijack the thread but I recognize that there are several knowledgeable posters from whom I can get clarification of my confusion.

Recoil
Input Data
Charge Weight: 70.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 2150.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 10.5 lb Bullet Weight: 510.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 19.4 ft/s Recoil Energy: 61.4 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 6.3 lb•s
22-Aug-22 10:21, JBM/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Recoil
Input Data
Charge Weight: 140.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 2150.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 10.5 lb Bullet Weight: 1020.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 38.8 ft/s Recoil Energy: 245.5 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 12.7 lb•s
22-Aug-22 10:23, JBM/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

 

[Ray B]

I'm going to have to think about this one for a while- it seems the program allows the user to get some free energy, which most know doesn't exist.

 

[bowjijohn]

I'm going to have to think about this one for a while- it seems the program allows the user to get some free energy, which most know doesn't exist.

Could the problem lay with the app itself?

I don’t know how the app calculates the recoil, but could there be a presumption of a single shot fired

could the doubling of the powder charge have a non linear effect on one of the variables it uses to calculate the muzzle blast element??

just a vague thought

j

 

[318AE]

I'm going to have to think about this one for a while- it seems the program allows the user to get some free energy, which most know doesn't exist.

Imagine firing two double rifles - if you could. 21lbs combined firearm weight, 1000 gr of total bullet weight. Twice the recoil of firing one. Now, cut the firearm weight in half.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Man if you could harness that and pull off a well controlled pair at that distance ans place them within a couple of inches of each other, the impact on target would be truly impressive.

>10,000 ft-lbs of E using most DG guns!

 

[Ray B]

Keeping in mind that recoil must approximate the bullets energy, firing two bullets would double the energy of the bullets, So the recoil would need to approximate the bullets energy. The mass of the gun doesn't change so the increase in energy would be shown as a velocity increase. but since the velocity component of energy is squared, a doubling of energy would not result in a doubling of velocity. Therein lies my confusion.

 

[Jfet]

Therein lies my confusion.

When the alligator mouths start getting used with numbers I always get confused

>10,000 ft-lbs of E using most DG guns!

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Once I had a .375 double rifle double fire one barrel immediately after the other. It was my fault with a fat trigger finger. I know that the second barrel fired after the first due to the fast but separate boom boom! The second round cleared the backstop, unfortunately. Maybe if I had aimed at an elephant's foot barrel #2 would have hit it backbone.

A few years ago I was going through my 8 gauge period. During a tower pheasant shoot on a couple directly overhead shots, my DH Parker doubled. Did you catch that I wrote "a couple of"? That's right not once but twice did I endure two loads of 2 & /4 once at 1100 fps slamming into my shoulder. That was instantaneously as neither me nor my fellow shooters could discern that more than one shot was fired. They did however notice the extra load report! I think I remember seeing stars for a second...

My gunsmith deduced that when pointing straight up, the weight of the second hammer pushed off the sear during recoil. He put a little more weight on the back trigger for me

 

[Namagiqa]

I teach Hunter Education for the state of Alaska. Everything about this pretty much sounds like some kind of 'how many mistakes can we identify' video.

Alcohol and firearms sounds bad enough. Kids around too? Way too much NoPe to go around.

I've practiced law in Alaska now for about 25 years. I've not had a case from Barrow (Uqtiavik now) but otherwise I've had a case from every standing Superior Court in this state, from Kotzebue to Dutch Harbor to Ketchikan. I have seen all kinds of horrible things come from mixing guns and alcohol.

Others have touched on why that's a bad idea so I won't really add much to that part but I will say that if, God forbid, something bad had happened, there are no words to describe the guilt you would feel. It is very similar to those who cause deaths from drunk driving. I've handled those cases as well as manslaughter from drunken, non-intentional shootings. I get the story was meant to be funny but it would not be funny if you were sitting in an attorney's office waiting for the blood alcohol tests to come back from the State medical examiner's office.

And this doesn't count civil liability. If anybody were injured from that shooting and your BAC was >.000, get out your checkbook. There are 2 issues I would make about this: 1) I said "anybody injured." That does not mean anybody shot. If the discharge off your weapon were to damage a support for a roof over one of the shooting stations so that it were to fall onto another person, that would be foreseeable and you would be liable. 2) your homeowner's policy may cover some of this but there are frequently exceptions for behavior that goes beyond negligence into recklessness. Reckless is typically defined as "conscious disregard of a substantial and unjustifiable risk." If you injure someone by the discharge of your firearm and your BAC was >.000, a jury could find that was reckless. And if reckless conduct is excluded from coverage from your home owner's policy, you could find yourself having to pay for your legal defense (figure $75-200K ballpark) as well as any judgment that a jury issues.

I have 3 kids, 1 grandson and a granddaughter on the way. I've taught all 3 of my kids to shoot and one of the first rules is: guns and alcohol do not mix. I have that rule because of what I have seen over my almost 3 decades of practicing law, not because I'm trying to be some holier-than-thou prick. If I have a beer at lunch, I don't go shooting. It's that simple. If I want a beer at lunch, I shoot before lunch. I'm not trying to preach but to give a perspective that most people don't always consider. Because trust me, the last thing you want to be doing is sitting in your lawyer's office with a haunted look on your face after several sleepless nights saying, "I never thought that would happen."

 

[Desperatezulu]

Keeping in mind that recoil must approximate the bullets energy, firing two bullets would double the energy of the bullets, So the recoil would need to approximate the bullets energy. The mass of the gun doesn't change so the increase in energy would be shown as a velocity increase. but since the velocity component of energy is squared, a doubling of energy would not result in a doubling of velocity. Therein lies my confusion.

The Newtonian laws still apply. Maybe it helps to understand if we think about the behaviour of the rifle (keeping Newton's 3rd law firmly in mind) rather than the muzzle energy.
The rifle (10.5lb or whatever) has twice the amount of energy (force) applied to it (from 2 simultaneous discharges) therefore its recoil velocity doubles, because its mass is constant.
Add the rifle recoil velocity at double the single shot value into the formula F = 1/2m v^2 and it's clear how doubling the recoil velocity quadruples the recoil energy. Albeit not very intuitive!

 

[Backyardsniper]

I've practiced law in Alaska now for about 25 years. I've not had a case from Barrow (Uqtiavik now) but otherwise I've had a case from every standing Superior Court in this state, from Kotzebue to Dutch Harbor to Ketchikan. I have seen all kinds of horrible things come from mixing guns and alcohol.

Others have touched on why that's a bad idea so I won't really add much to that part but I will say that if, God forbid, something bad had happened, there are no words to describe the guilt you would feel. It is very similar to those who cause deaths from drunk driving. I've handled those cases as well as manslaughter from drunken, non-intentional shootings. I get the story was meant to be funny but it would not be funny if you were sitting in an attorney's office waiting for the blood alcohol tests to come back from the State medical examiner's office.

And this doesn't count civil liability. If anybody were injured from that shooting and your BAC was >.000, get out your checkbook. There are 2 issues I would make about this: 1) I said "anybody injured." That does not mean anybody shot. If the discharge off your weapon were to damage a support for a roof over one of the shooting stations so that it were to fall onto another person, that would be foreseeable and you would be liable. 2) your homeowner's policy may cover some of this but there are frequently exceptions for behavior that goes beyond negligence into recklessness. Reckless is typically defined as "conscious disregard of a substantial and unjustifiable risk." If you injure someone by the discharge of your firearm and your BAC was >.000, a jury could find that was reckless. And if reckless conduct is excluded from coverage from your home owner's policy, you could find yourself having to pay for your legal defense (figure $75-200K ballpark) as well as any judgment that a jury issues.

I have 3 kids, 1 grandson and a granddaughter on the way. I've taught all 3 of my kids to shoot and one of the first rules is: guns and alcohol do not mix. I have that rule because of what I have seen over my almost 3 decades of practicing law, not because I'm trying to be some holier-than-thou prick. If I have a beer at lunch, I don't go shooting. It's that simple. If I want a beer at lunch, I shoot before lunch. I'm not trying to preach but to give a perspective that most people don't always consider. Because trust me, the last thing you want to be doing is sitting in your lawyer's office with a haunted look on your face after several sleepless nights saying, "I never thought that would happen."

I can appreciate that, it is true that you never think it can happen to you, yet it does seem to happen to people. We used to have a saying in Iraq that went something like. "Every morning when you put your boots on, you never think that will be the day that someone else is taking them off you."
So as a lawyer who sees the people that it does happen to, I can appreciate your point of view.

 

[C.W. Richter]

When the alligator mouths start getting used with numbers I always get confused

yes, that'd hurt both bbls at once! (5,000 ft-lbs x 2 into the animal). kindly ask the gun bearer to pull the 2nd trigger simultaneously.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Yo

This posting is not to address the behavioral aspects but I have some confusion regarding a post by @xausa . It was stated that if the bullet weight is doubled the recoil energy will quadruple. Since recoil of a firearm involves Newtonian rules physics the formula for the recoil energy is a variation of 1/2M.V2. As such a doubling of M only doubles the recoil and in the case of two shot fired in rapid sequence the total recoil energy would be the same, the difference being the absorbing of recoil from the first shot prior to the second.

I wouldn't hijack the thread but I recognize that there are several knowledgeable posters from whom I can get clarification of my confusion.

You are correct, only doubles.

 

[Ray B]

Here's the problem: say M= 10; v= 50 1/2x10x50x50 = 12,500
Using 12,500 as the muzzle energy of the bullet, so doubling for two bullets = 25,000
In the case of the rifle, M remains the same so the change in energy is in velocity
M=10, E = 25000 Solve for V
1/2 10 x 70.7 x 70.7 = 25,000
Doubling the energy by doubling the bullet mass with no change in velocity reflects in recoil where the gun mass remains the same results in an increase of velocity from 50 to 70.7

So where am I wrong?

 

[Ray B]

you never think that will be the day that someone else is taking them off you."

Having served a stint 50 years ago in Graves Registration, I can appreciate that.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Having served a stint 50 years ago in Graves Registration, I can appreciate that.

I was our Mortuary Affairs guy for my unit. Yeah that definitely gives you a very finite grip on your own mortality.

 

[Hannay]

Here's the problem: say M= 10; v= 50 1/2x10x50x50 = 12,500
Using 12,500 as the muzzle energy of the bullet, so doubling for two bullets = 25,000
In the case of the rifle, M remains the same so the change in energy is in velocity
M=10, E = 25000 Solve for V
1/2 10 x 70.7 x 70.7 = 25,000
Doubling the energy by doubling the bullet mass with no change in velocity reflects in recoil where the gun mass remains the same results in an increase of velocity from 50 to 70.7

So where am I wrong?

Recoil energy is not equal to the bullet energy.
Recoil momentum = bullet momentum (or more accurately recoil momentum would equal bullet momentum + charge momentum)
You're assuming recoil energy = bullet energy; this would be extremely painful.

 

[Inline6]

I had a young man that worked for me many years ago. He and I did not see eye to eye on a few things. He was a go getter and thought he should be in a higher position than he was ready for. He ended up leaving the company to work somewhere else to try to make that dream a reality. In that time he was away, he had some friends over, had a few beers. Brought out the guns for show and tell. He emptied all the guns and everyone was passing them around. When he went to put them up, what he thought was empty was not. I was not there, his wife and him both told me the same story. However he was holding the pistol the middle of his left palm was covering the mussel. Like his hand was wrapped around it to rack the slide, if that make sense. It was a FN 45acp with nasty hp +p in it. The gun went off, he really does not remember exactly how, he said he knew it was unloaded. His wife was right next to him. Neither one of them knows why she did not get shot, she was in line of the bullets path. The bullet was not a frangible, this is one of those situations where you have to believe in a higher power. She luckily had no damage to her other than powder burns on her arm that were there for years. He unfortunately was not that lucky. It took a big chunk of meat out of his hand, picture mid hand to heel all meat gone. Luckily it did not take any bone. Thier was blood and meat from the floor to the ceiling. He spent months in the hospital, they used a sponge and vacuum to grow his skin back. He said it was extremely painful every time they ripped that sponge off. He was let go and needed another job, I ended up hiring him back.We ended up being very good friends, to the point I think of him as my brother.

I'll be the first to admit I have fucked up plenty in my life. I try not to tell anyone how to do them (hard for me to judge someone knowing the things I had done). I also know that people have a lot of experience to offer, it's up to me what to do with the information they provide.Weather or not I want to hear it has nothing to do if it is good information.


I can't say I have had a PM on this sight that was negative. I have asked for people's opinions and advice and everyone was always willing to help. I have made post that people have had unfavorably opinions. That is what a forum is about. Different perspectives on different situations. That in my eyes is for either me to get educated or to do the educating. This is probably one of the tighter communities I have been apart of. Some of these guys talk about love ones passing and you see the heart felt condolences from these guys/gals. You can tell people really care about one another here. It's not typical, I killed the most, or the biggest, or the whatever. I feel this is a good thing to be part of.

I'll leave this food for thought, our egos tend to get the best of us. Sometimes we just need to realize that. God knows I have to check myself on a regular basis.

Hopefully this is coming across as a conversation and not like I'm preaching. Typed words online, it is hard to read people's intentions, you hear nothing in their voice, or see anything in their body language to give you any clues.

 

[John Havard]

I can’t do

The Newtonian laws still apply. Maybe it helps to understand if we think about the behaviour of the rifle (keeping Newton's 3rd law firmly in mind) rather than the muzzle energy.
The rifle (10.5lb or whatever) has twice the amount of energy (force) applied to it (from 2 simultaneous discharges) therefore its recoil velocity doubles, because its mass is constant.
Add the rifle recoil velocity at double the single shot value into the formula F = 1/2m v^2 and it's clear how doubling the recoil velocity quadruples the recoil energy.

I can’t do the math. I’ll have to ask my 17 year old daughter to work it out for me. That said, some of you may recall my story when I was here before I took a break, of a Joseph Lang 450 #2 Owned by Cal Pappas that doubled on me. I think Cal was as shocked as me! A real live double with Cal’s hand loads. Ouch!!