Which Shotgun for buckshot ?

[270Guy]

I will be changing to using buckshot for deer hunting is there any shotgun you have experienced that gives you the best patterns. What choke works best for you?
Can you tell any difference in barrel length?
Is the aftermarket cokes that much better?
I will be using a 12 gauge
Would it be worth going to a 3.5" gun?
I know these are questions that are opinions but I would like to here from someone with real experience

Hi,the only question that comes to mind is "What will be the Range at which you Shoot".Have used Shotguns since i was a Kid,have seen them put down everything if the quarry is within the proper shooting Range.Have personally put down Nilgai,Wildboar,etc,etc with it easily.Chokes were usually Full Cylinder,Improved or Full Choke.had a Shotgun with both Barrels full Choke,was hell on Game.Most of the Guns available here were in 70 MM Chambers,a few 76 MM,anything above that were basically for Honkers flying near the Stratosphere.IMHO the ideal shooting distance with a Normal Shotgun with 70-76 mm ammo would be 40-45 Yards where one can put 3-5 OO Buck Pellets in a Deer's Vitals.Hope this Helps.
PS; Came back on the Forum after a very Long time,so sorry for the late reply

 

[rookhawk]

I’d ask why. I’ve never found a use for buck shot and it’s painfully inaccurate. Heavy loads malform the balls making it less accurate a pattern yet.

Can’t you use a brenneke slug to 2x to 3x your ethical range, or use a rem ballistic tip 20 gauge slug to 6x to 10x your ethical range?

 

[IvW]

I prefer Original Brenneke slugs 2 3/4 for warthog, bushpig, leopard, impala.....well just about anything in comfortable range. Have killed kudu, bwb, etc. No problem. Longest shot was 84m if I recall correctly.

Small buckshot AAA to about nr 1 works fine on smaller species close in....duikers suni etc.

I never use heavy buckshot on any larger animals especially at distance...

I would love to try some off this new Tungsten stuff.....

 

[AustinH48]

Getcha some apex #2 tungsten

 

[BeeMaa]

As @rookhawk stated, buckshot is woefully inaccurate and is not be surprised to find more people buying 00-buck for home defense than hunting deer.

I have a friend that has to use a shotgun for deer hunting in certain areas. He picked up a Savage 220…it’s a 20 bore, bolt action shotgun with a rifled 20” barrel and he put a Leupold 1.5-5x20 scope on it. I believe he spent a total of $1200 for the firearm and scope combo.

It shoots Federal sabot slugs into the same hole at 100 yards and is easily a 150 yard killer. With it being a 20, the felt recoil is reduced vs using a 12 bore.

If you have your mind set on using a 12 bore, look into Brenneke slugs and use a MOD or IC choke. Your range and accuracy will be far better than 00-buck.

 

[BeeMaa]

This seems appropriate…

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/a-very-ugly-high-end-slug-gun.76022/

 

[HankBuck]

I will be changing to using buckshot for deer hunting is there any shotgun you have experienced that gives you the best patterns. What choke works best for you?
Can you tell any difference in barrel length?
Is the aftermarket cokes that much better?
I will be using a 12 gauge
Would it be worth going to a 3.5" gun?
I know these are questions that are opinions but I would like to here from someone with real experience

HHJ56 - I’m Not a ballistics expert but I have extensive experience killing deer with Buckshot - did deer control in NJ for 10 years and covered 3 Farms suffering damage to sweet corn crops. Killed 20 to 30 deer a year using 12 ga Buckshot and also shotgun slugs. My assessment - Buckshot over 35 to 40 yrds is unreliable - it kills out to 100 yrds (lucky pellet hit) but even 000 3” shells from Mod or improved modified to full chokes were inconsistent. You MUST pattern your choke in using Your gun because results vary widely. I used a highly rated & expensive “Pattern Master” choke tube that cost $85 in 2002 and it was worse then the standard Mossberg modified. I also used Benelli SBE with IM choke. Inside of 25 yrds all deer were knocked off their feet but over 35 yrds results varied from DRT to “ran off” and never found. Walking thru standing corn and “jumping deer” I found an O/U with IC chokes and 2 3/4” #1 buck was great for running deer - to 25-30 yrds. Results past 35-40 yrds was always an “adventure”, some died out to 50-75 yrds others ren off and lost at 45 yrds.
After over 100 deer I switched permently to slug guns and had much more consistent results — only running shots were more difficult. Buckshot would NEVER be my choice for deer but if forced to use it: Pattern your load & choke, keep shots inside 40 yrds or be willing to take risk of a loss

 

[Forrest Halley]

As @rookhawk stated, buckshot is woefully inaccurate and is not be surprised to find more people buying 00-buck for home defense than hunting deer.

I have a friend that has to use a shotgun for deer hunting in certain areas. He picked up a Savage 220…it’s a 20 bore, bolt action shotgun with a rifled 20” barrel and he put a Leupold 1.5-5x20 scope on it. I believe he spent a total of $1200 for the firearm and scope combo.

It shoots Federal sabot slugs into the same hole at 100 yards and is easily a 150 yard killer. With it being a 20, the felt recoil is reduced vs using a 12 bore.

If you have your mind set on using a 12 bore, look into Brenneke slugs and use a MOD or IC choke. Your range and accuracy will be far better than 00-buck.

Well as the tactical shotgun jockeys are blasting away quite a bit of buckshot every weekend I see truth in your statement.

Not all areas in your state are permissible to use slugs for deer and shotgun with buckshot is required in a few places. That number has much diminished from what it once was, but buckshot remains relevant.

 

[Forrest Halley]

HHJ56 - I’m Not a ballistics expert but I have extensive experience killing deer with Buckshot - did deer control in NJ for 10 years and covered 3 Farms suffering damage to sweet corn crops. Killed 20 to 30 deer a year using 12 ga Buckshot and also shotgun slugs. My assessment - Buckshot over 35 to 40 yrds is unreliable - it kills out to 100 yrds (lucky pellet hit) but even 000 3” shells from Mod or improved modified to full chokes were inconsistent. You MUST pattern your choke in using Your gun because results vary widely. I used a highly rated & expensive “Pattern Master” choke tube that cost $85 in 2002 and it was worse then the standard Mossberg modified. I also used Benelli SBE with IM choke. Inside of 25 yards all deer were knocked off their feet but over 35 yards results varied from DRT to “ran off” and never found. Walking thru standing corn and “jumping deer” I found an O/U with IC chokes and 2 3/4” #1 buck was great for running deer - to 25-30 yards. Results past 35-40 yards was always an “adventure”, some died out to 50-75 yards others ren off and lost at 45 yards.
After over 100 deer I switched permanently to slug guns and had much more consistent results — only running shots were more difficult. Buckshot would NEVER be my choice for deer but if forced to use it: Pattern your load & choke, keep shots inside 40 yards or be willing to take risk of a loss

May I ask what length barrel and which model of Mossberg shotgun you were using?
I used a full choke in an 835 28" barrel and I was confident on standing still shots to 70 yards with Federal 3½" OOB. I did not find the pattern master effective in the back bored barrel of the 835. I found it tremendously effective in the Remington 870 super mag 26" with 3½" 00B. The 11-87 26" and especially the 21" rifle sighted barrel with 2¾" 00B showed tested well on paper at 80-100 yards, but I never fired them at deer. The SBE tested well and is a killer out to fifty yards so far.
I think the rifled sight or scoped smoothbore choked barrel at 24-28" would be a tremendous advantage for the longer shots in keeping the buckshot load on target consistently.
I also believe that the velocity developed by the load when it interacts with the choke tube has some bearing on end result of the pattern. Porting prior to the choke tube in Mossbergs may actually improve patterns due to the lesser velocity of the shot column going through the radial choke causing less deformation and less muzzle blast to drive the shot cup/wadding through the shot column expanding the pattern.

 

[Hififile324]

I spent 35 years as a Law Enforcement Armorer, Firearms trainer and Officer. When I first started in 1980 we trained on, and carried Remington 870's with 18" barrels. And our duty carry was OO buck in the magazine, with slugs on hand. We qualified at 25 & 50 yards. The buckshot hits at 50 yards were pitiful and mostly off target.

If we needed to dispatch a wounded deer in a roadway our orders were to use buckshot. Many wounded deer were hit with the buckshot and still managed to get up and flee.

Buckshot has it's place. Close quarters combat, clearing rooms, breaching doors.

I think you can make a much better choice for deer hunting. If you wish to use a shotgun for deer hunting rifled slugs would be my choice, or a rifled shotgun barrel with sights, shooting sabot slugs.

With practice you should be able to reliably hit a paper plate target out to 75 yards, giving you the ability to cleanly get your deer within 75 yards.

Regarding shotgun selection, pick the one that fits you the best. My choice is a Remington 870 because you can swap out barrels for the type of hunting required or personal defense. Mossberg and Winchester pumps offer the same benefits as well and are good reliable shotguns.

 

[BeeMaa]

@HankBuck and @Forrest Halley - You can both be right about chokes & loads...and it wouldn't be the first time this has happened with shotguns.

I've seen the same brand & model shotguns, side by side, with the same barrel length, the same chokes and same loads shoot wildly different patterns. It's not often, but it does happen. This is why it's so important to pattern the combination that you plan on using while hunting.

Chokes are a crazy subject and worthy of their own thread. What I've found through the years is that ported chokes will (almost) always spread a pattern out more than a non-ported choke of the same constriction. Most factory chokes are not accurate when measured with a micrometer compared to what they are supposed to be. Some factory chokes have given good patterns, but it's been the exception not the rule. I've had the most consistent measurements and patterns from Carlson's and Muller non-ported choke tubes...and I'm not being paid to say that.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I spent 35 years as a Law Enforcement Armorer, Firearms trainer and Officer. When I first started in 1980 we trained on, and carried Remington 870's with 18" barrels. And our duty carry was OO buck in the magazine, with slugs on hand. We qualified at 25 & 50 yards. The buckshot hits at 50 yards were pitiful and mostly off target.

If we needed to dispatch a wounded deer in a roadway our orders were to use buckshot. Many wounded deer were hit with the buckshot and still managed to get up and flee.

Buckshot has it's place. Close quarters combat, clearing rooms, breaching doors.

I think you can make a much better choice for deer hunting. If you wish to use a shotgun for deer hunting rifled slugs would be my choice, or a rifled shotgun barrel with sights, shooting sabot slugs.

With practice you should be able to reliably hit a paper plate target out to 75 yards, giving you the ability to cleanly get your deer within 75 yards.

Regarding shotgun selection, pick the one that fits you the best. My choice is a Remington 870 because you can swap out barrels for the type of hunting required or personal defense. Mossberg and Winchester pumps offer the same benefits as well and are good reliable shotguns.

Respectfully the 18" 870 has got to be the most difficult gun to hit reliably with as the hold point is so low to avoid over shooting the target that it is ridiculous. Belt buckle aim with bead on top of receiver at 25 yards is great for watching a subject's hands but the repeatability of any kind of precision is difficult with this crude sighting system. With rifle sights there is great improvement to the repeatable precision in point of aim and the general elevation of the pattern is improved. At a recent qualification I was instructed in no fewer than three points of hold for distances of engagement with a bead barreled shotgun from 25 to 15 and 10 yards that moved down substantially on the torso as distance increased. We were also instructed that most students tended to fire over their targets. Which I knew from experience to be a true statement having once missed a standing deer with a 30" single bead setup high at some forty yards. Being an experienced shotgun shooter in a pool of novice shooters I asked the rhetorical questions, "If I have to hold lower as the distance increases to keep the hits on target, why am I using multiple points of aim? Especially if I'm not great at distance estimation?"

The brand of buckshot and product line/SKU is also key as it tells a great deal about the pattern one can expect. Remington Express or equivalent is going to be a wider pattern as opposed to Federal or Winchester. Having a shot cup and buffering vs. a simple charge and wad makes quite the difference even in just a cylinder bore.

Not to take away from the need for or prestige of the profession, but law enforcement marksmanship and firearms expertise is often touted, but overrated. The standards are a wide mark and the standards are easily achieved by most all with a working familiarity with firearms. An armorer is generally someone that went to a class held by a manufacturer to replace parts returning a worn gun to a safe and functional factory standard that has an understanding of the basic functions of the weapon. He is not a gunsmith that is customizing and refining the function to improve accuracy and tailor to a user.

When I bought the 14" Mossberg 590 shockwave I went out and purchased every buckshot I could find at a larger gun store in 2¾" and 3" in both basic and premium variety from #4B to 000B in Remington, Winchester, Federal, and Hornady. I was also able to procure some interesting loads from Herters that were out of the standard norm for loadings. I found that #4B recoiled worst I every shell length aside from the high velocity slug. #1B was the most pleasant to shoot and it had the fullest patterns. A 3" 000B loading actually patterned most serviceably from contact to thirty yards. Beyond that I tried slugs and flitecontrol buckshot. The hold under was absolutely ridiculous at distance and accuracy was not repeatable with acceptable precision. The interesting thing was that the patterns of the buckshot with the flitecontrol were slug-like at anything under about thirty yards and still holding all pellets on torso at forty yards without any choke constriction. I ended up mounting a laser on this gun for use around the home I lower light periods. I zeroed it at 25 yards on an eight inch plate and called it good. In revisiting this due to the resurgence of this discussion, I feel like I could mount a red dot sight on this and have a capable weapon easily out to fifty yards. With chokes installed the distance could be improved. The exercise as a whole was very eye-opening as I don't think many people go out and sample from such a large selection of shotgun shells, but instead are quick to form an opinion without comprehensive testing. I certainly learned a lot from what I thought I knew from thirty years of hunting with the shotgun. It will always have a place hunting deer in my eyes, even with the rifle being available, and it is more capable than often billed especially in capable hands or hands willing to learn more.

 

[Hififile324]

That is well said Forrest. I'm in agreement. My point was back in the 80's the shotgun was touted as a great tool, and it was not. Now they have been replaced with quality, accurate semi-auto rifles (M4, AR, etc.).

By the way our agency armory serviced thousands of guns every year. We had a full gunsmith shop equipped with vertical mills, Jett's. All armorers went to various manufacturer armorer schools, and many went to Yavapai School of gunsmithing. We built our own precision rifles too. Not all agencies are like this but several larger agencies are.

 

[HankBuck]

Looks like I may need to buy and try a Buck Kicker choke tube, may extend my range 20 meters possibly, if it works with factory Rem buckshot, I do not reload shotgun ammo.

As above state, I am NOT ready or willing to shoot deer at 100 yds with any buckshot load, here in BC #1 buck is smallest allowed in shotgun areas. I still have not seen any 100 yd targets provided with multiple fatal hits on an 8" circle. Then lets use gelatin target to make sure energy and penetration depths are suitable for a 120-200lb BC deer.

Bubba states that he has taken deer out to 100 yds but I can find no practice or videos with 100 yds as range distance. Then of course it must be consistent for ethical kills. I would be willing to say that more deer shot at, at 100 yds with buckshot have run away with imbedded wounding pellets than have been ethically cleanly and quickly killed.

Maybe with custom components, reloading for specific gun and of course lots of practice it is possible.

Just not for me.

MB

MB - Agree ! I doubt that there is any buckshot load that will “consistently” (70%+) kill deer over 60 yrds. I’ve killed deer at 100 yrds with 000 - twice and the only one more “surprised” then me was the deer, out of 10 pellets only “one” hit the deer and one time a Neck hit and the other head (I was pointed for center body!). These are shots I would Never take hunting or even on a racked buck (passed up racked bucks) We were were tasked with eradicating deer and alsost always Doe & younger deer were taken. They could destroy a 5 acre field of Sweet Corn in a week or two. As far as penetration - lead Buckshot “sucks” at almost any range, I found that a mature deer broadside at 25-30 yrds would be knocked of its feet and often hit by all 10 pellets in a 3” 000 buck shell —- but NONE “Exited”. A few would be under the hide opposite side. So for broadside shots - thats fine but forget about consistency on any hard quartering away angles - you’ll break legs, puncture guts but unreliable getting into the vitals, it can be a long trail to recover that animal. I did have some very limited experience using HeviShot 00 buck and that penetrated much better but it was expensive and hard to find - my guess is it would be significantly better then Lead. Overall, I sum up my experience with buckshot this way: Spectacular Kills or incredible Failures, under 25 yrds it’s my first choice and over 35 yrds my Last...

 

[HankBuck]

Use 000 3" rounds and an improved cylinder choke unless you want a specialized choke. Buckshot fired through tight chokes deforms the little spheres and they no longer fly true and hold a pattern. you will see a number of flyers usually if you are using a full or even more constricted choke. The reason police and military use cylinder chokes is to improve their patterning, not open it up. Still, Buckshot isn't legal in a lot of states for deer because it is marginally effective compared to a solid slug or rifle. I would still opt for a slug if all I had was a shotgun.... Just my opinion

Chris, agree - for years many found that Full/tight chokes actually make buckshot patterns worse - I don’t know why? (I’m not a ballistics expert).
I’m not a believer in needing to pattern any shotgun for wing-shooting but feel it’s essential to pattern for Buckshot/deer and Turkey hunting....the variables in pattern are significant and can make the difference between a harvest and lost game.

 

[HankBuck]

View attachment 500643

My late father Julius Tahija shot this Sumateran tiger in 1972 with a semiautomatic Remington 12ga loaded with 00 Buckshot. He was running Caltex Indonesia. Fired two quick shots at the tiger but they only found 1 pellet which hit the brain. He shot everything with it including pigs and Sambar deer. He fought in the dutch colonial army which was under general McArthur’s command in WWII based in Australia. Indonesia which was a Dutch colony at the time.

What a GREAT photo — definitely a time gone bye !!

 

[HankBuck]

I have been hunting Chital deer, Kakar deer and jungle boars quite a bit, by employing buckshot. I personally prefer a 12 Gauge 3 "Magnum sidelock ejector side by side, which was built in 1932 by Janssen Freres in Belgium. The barrels are 32 " long and both barrels are improved cylinder Choke.
View attachment 446512View attachment 446513
I used to prefer Sellier & Bellot "Red Hare" paper cased 2.75 " 35 gram eight pellet LG shells in the past. Each LG pellet has a diameter of 9.14mm and is the equivalent of American OOO Buck. Unfortunately, Sellier & Bellot discontinued manufacturing shotgun shells loaded with any shot size larger than SG/OO Buck a few years ago.
View attachment 446514View attachment 446515

I currently use Federal Premium 3 " Magnum Copper plated ten pellet OOO Buck shells.
View attachment 446516View attachment 446517

In regards to chokes, this is a very technical subject area. Buckshot which is unbuffered and uses a fiber wad, should be used only in open choked shotguns (such as cylinder or improved cylinder). Otherwise the tight chokes will cause the buckshot pellets to get deformed while passing through the barrel and your pattern will be erratic. Buckshot which is buffered and protected by a plastic wad can be used in even tightly choked shotguns (such as full or extra full), often with good results (i.e tight patterns).

I personally prefer side by side shotguns, but any format (be it over & under, pump action, semi automatic or single barrel) may be used for safely shooting buckshot. The platform is of no consequence. But side by side or over & under shotguns are more likely to have their barrel soldering eventually get damaged if heavy buckshot is repeatedly fired through them (especially the delicately built English shotguns). For this reason, double barreled shotguns (which you intend to use for shooting buckshot) should always have very strong walls.

In my experience, the bulk of the manufacturers of shotguns discourage using OOO buckshot in shotgun barrels which are choked tighter than improved cylinder. The reason being, that they believe that large buckshot through a tightly choked shotgun barrel will eventually cause a barrel bulge. These manufacturers include:
Winchester
Browning
Fausti
Rizzini
AyA
Grulla Armas
Armas Garbi
Ignacio Zubillaga
Merkel
Savage
Huglu
Baikal
Westley Richards
Watson Brothers
A. A. Brown
Verney Carron
Lebeau Courally (although they might not be manufacturing any new firearms, anyway)

Birmingham proof master, Sam Perry believes that shotguns which are intended for use with heavy Buckshot ... Should not be choked tighter than quarter choke with a good length of the cone leading in.


To the best of my knowledge... Only Beretta, Benelli and Remington (and the original Czech owned BRNO) encourage the use of OOO Buck in fully choked shotguns.

You definitely don't need a 12 Gauge with 3.5 " Super Magnum chambers. The recoil is absolutely beastly. But if you must get one, then the Benelli Super Black Eagle 3 is the greatest 3.5" Super Magnum shotgun ever to be made.

3 "Magnum chambers are far more reasonable and practical. And I've never found 3 " Magnum shells to be lacking in any department.

Agree, for double barrel shotguns but No risk in single barrel modern shotguns - all buckshot compresses traveling down the barrel and out the bore. Regarding 3 1/2” shells = Never needed, they are “marketing genius” to sell more shotguns and convince well read but inexperienced hunters that they Need them and can kill game farther. The recoil, flinch, and dental damage they do far outweighs any extra pellets flying around...(My grumpy old man opinion)

 

[HankBuck]

Well

Why seven pellets? That's quite an arbitrary value. You also failed to state a shot size. I could monkey around with 4B and get seven pellets at 100 yds, but to what end? The energy is likely not there to break through the ribs. Personally I'd go with 00B and looking for three or four. It really only takes one, but three or four definitely means we're eating venison.

"A horrible choice for consistent clean humane killing of deer," is a false label on the cartridge perpetuated by use by the unpracticed and ill prepared. I think it does a fine job when one spends the spring and summer shooting clays with the shotgun one is to go deer hunting with. When Joe redneck has the shotgun sitting in the corner with the same choke it came with 10 months of the year and goes out to hunt he has no idea what's going on. The vent rib shotgun is a tough thing to use making long shots and requires intimate knowledge of the load. That's usually a financial investment most people aren't making, but I have seen individuals who can deliver in excess of 50 yards regularly with it. I had six out of 18 pellets hit the vitals from Federal Premium 3½" 00B on a broad side doe at 80 yards. There was no trailing. She fell right there. The shotgun setup that I was using for 100 yard shots was a 21" 11-87 smoothbore with rifle sights, a Pattern Master wad retarding device, and Remington Premier buckshot 2¾" 00B. That was good stuff, is no longer made and I'm down to my last boxes of it. I'm looking at Flitecontrol as a replacement but it's going to require a different approach as it doesn't play well with wad retarding chokes and apparently doesn't like to be heavily constricted.

if your Doe “fell right there” from an 80 yrd shot with Bucksot - that’s a “Lucky” pellet that either hit spine or brain and I don’t doubt you put other pellets in her - and that it was a good well executed shot that delivered a pattern that you carefully practiced with...but even 6 pellets thru her heart, lungs, liver will Not drop her on the spot.

 

[HankBuck]

I live in a State that only allowed buckshot. In the last 15 years they approved slugs. Maybe back then it was not possible to kill effectively out to 100 yds as you claim. The ammo and chokes were not up to today's capabilities. But, I really think that killing out cleanly and routinely at 100 yds is a stretch. Do you know how much energy a 00 pellet has at 100 yds? Look it up and tell me it's good enough.

Guessing similar to muzzle energy a .22 rimfire and less then a .22 rimefire magnum?

 

[HankBuck]

May I ask what length barrel and which model of Mossberg shotgun you were using?
I used a full choke in an 835 28" barrel and I was confident on standing still shots to 70 yards with Federal 3½" OOB. I did not find the pattern master effective in the back bored barrel of the 835. I found it tremendously effective in the Remington 870 super mag 26" with 3½" 00B. The 11-87 26" and especially the 21" rifle sighted barrel with 2¾" 00B showed tested well on paper at 80-100 yards, but I never fired them at deer. The SBE tested well and is a killer out to fifty yards so far.
I think the rifled sight or scoped smoothbore choked barrel at 24-28" would be a tremendous advantage for the longer shots in keeping the buckshot load on target consistently.
I also believe that the velocity developed by the load when it interacts with the choke tube has some bearing on end result of the pattern. Porting prior to the choke tube in Mossbergs may actually improve patterns due to the lesser velocity of the shot column going through the radial choke causing less deformation and less muzzle blast to drive the shot cup/wadding through the shot column expanding the pattern.

FH, my Mossberg was the 835 Ultimag with 24” barrel, purchased around 1999. I don’t believe that barrel length affects muzzle velocity much in a shotgun as most modern loads achieve their powder burn in the first 18” of barrel. Anyway, the gun is very heavy and feels clumsy, ok for deer or turkey but hated in in a duck blind. As for the 3 1/2” chamber - tried those shells once for Turkey and after 3 shots patterning - dropped down to 3” and still took a beating. I certainly like other pumps better and Remington 870 Wingmaster is much nicer. You are right about chokes - only way to know is to pattern them with different chokes & different loads and see what the gun “likes” - for deer & turkey this is important.