Which Shotgun for buckshot ?

[Forrest Halley]

Well

if your Doe “fell right there” from an 80 yrd shot with Bucksot - that’s a “Lucky” pellet that either hit spine or brain and I don’t doubt you put other pellets in her - and that it was a good well executed shot that delivered a pattern that you carefully practiced with...but even 6 pellets thru her heart, lungs, liver will Not drop her on the spot.

No spine or brain as I recall. I believe it was a nervous reaction from the combined trauma. This deer stood still and I only fired because another hunter shot and I saw no reaction. The issue was he fired at another deer on the other side of a hay bale. I was not able to execute a makeup to fix that one in time, but thankfully I was able to determine no injury to that deer.

FH, my Mossberg was the 835 Ultimag with 24” barrel, purchased around 1999.

My absolute most hated combination. That gun needed a scope or rifle sights. Absolutely despised it. I missed cleanly a running deer at less than fifteen yards with your beloved pattern master. The gun going off unexpectedly so close knocked it off its feet and it tore up ground 10'x10' and I checked every leaf and found no blood. The magazine was capped at three and I was so shocked when the deer jumped up and shook off the leaves and ran away.

I don’t believe that barrel length affects muzzle velocity much in a shotgun as most modern loads achieve their powder burn in the first 18” of barrel.

I'd ask you to look at it from another perspective. If it's achieved max velocity by 18" then it would be slower crossing the choke the further away from 18" we get. I think the science lies in matching the speed of the shot column and constriction and finding that sweet spot.

Anyway, the gun is very heavy and feels clumsy, ok for deer or turkey but hated in in a duck blind. As for the 3 1/2” chamber - tried those shells once for Turkey and after 3 shots patterning - dropped down to 3” and still took a beating. I certainly like other pumps better and Remington 870 Wingmaster is much nicer.

I am right there with you on the handling. It is on an entirely different plane the way it points. The Remingtons and Benelli are easier for me to be successful with. I think there's a lot to be said for the extra mass in the 28" barrel and the wood furniture. The synthetic leaves a bill to be paid in the recoil department. I'm not a spring turkey hunter so I don't fool with the enormous payloads of fine shot.

You are right about chokes - only way to know is to pattern them with different chokes & different loads and see what the gun “likes” - for deer & turkey this is important.

Yes. Too many just grab a box of Remington buckshot and shoot the modified the gun came with wondering why their success levels are so pitiful.

 

[archer36]

May I ask what length barrel and which model of Mossberg shotgun you were using?
I used a full choke in an 835 28" barrel and I was confident on standing still shots to 70 yards with Federal 3½" OOB. I did not find the pattern master effective in the back bored barrel of the 835. I found it tremendously effective in the Remington 870 super mag 26" with 3½" 00B. The 11-87 26" and especially the 21" rifle sighted barrel with 2¾" 00B showed tested well on paper at 80-100 yards, but I never fired them at deer. The SBE tested well and is a killer out to fifty yards so far.
I think the rifled sight or scoped smoothbore choked barrel at 24-28" would be a tremendous advantage for the longer shots in keeping the buckshot load on target consistently.
I also believe that the velocity developed by the load when it interacts with the choke tube has some bearing on end result of the pattern. Porting prior to the choke tube in Mossbergs may actually improve patterns due to the lesser velocity of the shot column going through the radial choke causing less deformation and less muzzle blast to drive the shot cup/wadding through the shot column expanding the pattern.

To add to the Patternmaster discussion. They highly recommended using Federal Premium buckshot which has a plastic collar encircling the shot. This fully engages the wad stripping features of the choke. Using cheap, unbuffered, or buffered shot without the collar does not allow the choke to do it's job. In fact, the classic Patternmaster is not a "choke" at all. It has no construction. It is the studs in the choke that holds the wad so the shot can exit the barrel without disturbance.
I have used it for many types of shells. Large steel shot, large size turkey loads , and buckshot. But they must all have a plastic sleeve around the shot column.

 

[Forrest Halley]

To add to the Patternmaster discussion. They highly recommended using Federal Premium buckshot which has a plastic collar encircling the shot. This fully engages the wad stripping features of the choke. Using cheap, unbuffered, or buffered shot without the collar does not allow the choke to do it's job. In fact, the classic Patternmaster is not a "choke" at all. It has no construction. It is the studs in the choke that holds the wad so the shot can exit the barrel without disturbance.
I have used it for many types of shells. Large steel shot, large size turkey loads , and buckshot. But they must all have a plastic sleeve around the shot column.

The best buckshot I ever tested with a pattern master was actually Remington premier buckshot. Nickel plated antimony hardened with a shot cup. There is/was a parallel product called the wad wizard. I think the franchise was split in a divorce. I have one of each. There is no difference between the two except the gun that it fits. I was well aware of both the need for a shot cup and 2¾" shells in standard loadings (shortest shot string) for tightest patterns. I also carried that lower quality buckshot with me to specialize for various conditions taking advantage of the wider pattern without needed to change the choke(wad retarding device).

Nobody has touched on specialization loadings. Whenever turkey was in season it was common for folks to lead with a 4B or 1B followed by 00B and then 000B. Being a curious young hunter when I began hunting deer with a shotgun I asked tons of questions to other hunters about shell preference and the reasoning behind it. There were many answers and it was easy to filter them based on shots taken to game killed.

 

[rgsiii]

My sample size is one small deer shot at 15-20 feet. I fired at it and couldn't see a fallen animal due to the brush. Moving to the spot, the deer lay where he last stood. Probably used a Remington 1100 with OO buckshot. If it is a close shot I think many different things could work.

 

[Rem280]

835 Mossberg with 00 buck shot (whatever I could find) and full choke crushed some delicate hogs. Yes I am cleaning her in my townhome garage. LOL. Just do your part and keep distances within reason. 100 yard 00 buck kills remind me of when I ran a mile once. Miracles can happen.

 

[Rem280]

Or this one with the 835 Mossberg with full choke and random 00. Don't over think it.

 

[HankBuck]

No spine or brain as I recall. I believe it was a nervous reaction from the combined trauma. This deer stood still and I only fired because another hunter shot and I saw no reaction. The issue was he fired at another deer on the other side of a hay bale. I was not able to execute a makeup to fix that one in time, but thankfully I was able to determine no injury to that deer.

My absolute most hated combination. That gun needed a scope or rifle sights. Absolutely despised it. I missed cleanly a running deer at less than fifteen yards with your beloved pattern master. The gun going off unexpectedly so close knocked it off its feet and it tore up ground 10'x10' and I checked every leaf and found no blood. The magazine was capped at three and I was so shocked when the deer jumped up and shook off the leaves and ran away.

I'd ask you to look at it from another perspective. If it's achieved max velocity by 18" then it would be slower crossing the choke the further away from 18" we get. I think the science lies in matching the speed of the shot column and constriction and finding that sweet spot.

I am right there with you on the handling. It is on an entirely different plane the way it points. The Remingtons and Benelli are easier for me to be successful with. I think there's a lot to be said for the extra mass in the 28" barrel and the wood furniture. The synthetic leaves a bill to be paid in the recoil department. I'm not a spring turkey hunter so I don't fool with the enormous payloads of fine shot.

Yes. Too many just grab a box of Remington buckshot and shoot the modified the gun came with wondering why their success levels are so pitiful.

Forest, you might be in a “tie” with me regarding lack of ballistics knowledge - your theory about velocity slowing down after 18” - before it reaches the choke has Nothing to do with what I wrote — I mentioned barrel length in a shotgun has little to do with velocity after the first 18”,,,,Your “theory might be true - and therefore would apply to 18” barrels or 36” barrels - assuming you are correct and the velocity begins to slow the farther down the barrel it travels. Other then our “theories” on Einstein Relativity and Quantum Physics — we are in agreement

 

[Forrest Halley]

Or this one with the 835 Mossberg with full choke and random 00. Don't over think it.

Dangerous advice. You're success may well lie in luck. Always pattern and be willing to play around with chokes and loads. Thanks to the ammunition companies streamlining their buckshot offerings a lot of people have forgotten that a particular shotgun may get decent results with 00B, but could be an absolute killer with 1B due to a fuller pattern. The fixed choke days are largely over as there aren't a lot of us still hunting with them for larger game animals.

I did exactly what you said this past season. I grabbed a shotgun and took it hunting with random buckshot. A Mossberg 835 20" with factory fiber optic sights(never zeroed) with a flush fitting factory full choke tube firing Remington Express 0B. That's 12 pellets of 0.32" diameter unplated shot. My shot came at thirty yards on the edge of thick brush. I fired at what I could see in a still standing shot. The deer went down hard immediately. I went in to find the pellets had struck six inches lower than intended and the hit was immobilizing, but non lethal. There for the grace of God go I. Two .45 ACP rounds were expended and I had my deer.

Forest, you might be in a “tie” with me regarding lack of ballistics knowledge - your theory about velocity slowing down after 18” - before it reaches the choke has Nothing to do with what I wrote — I mentioned barrel length in a shotgun has little to do with velocity after the first 18”,,,,Your “theory might be true - and therefore would apply to 18” barrels or 36” barrels - assuming you are correct and the velocity begins to slow the farther down the barrel it travels. Other then our “theories” on Einstein Relativity and Quantum Physics — we are in agreement

Hank I came up with this theory of velocity over choke during testing for patterns in a 14" barrel. I thought about the Vang Comp folks porting barrels and achieving better patterns in cylinder bore guns as well as my own experience with longer barrels having better patterns than short barrels with similar constrictions of chokes. I figured the 14" was not developing maximum velocity as it was selected for maneuverability and minimum serviceable magazine capacity. I also figured that the porting is slowing the shot column down leaving the muzzle. I turned out to be quite wrong in my assumption of velocity governing patterns. I failed to consider that there isn't much drag in a shotgun barrel and the pressures are relatively low given the narrow barrel thickness.

Barrel length vs. velocity in shotguns

This article suggests shows barrel length from 6.5" to 36" with velocity on the continual rise. Perhaps patterns are instead a function of pressure and constriction? With the barrels being so thin I find that hard to believe too.

You may be right. I may indeed know nothing at all.

 

[HankBuck]

Dangerous advice. You're success may well lie in luck. Always pattern and be willing to play around with chokes and loads. Thanks to the ammunition companies streamlining their buckshot offerings a lot of people have forgotten that a particular shotgun may get decent results with 00B, but could be an absolute killer with 1B due to a fuller pattern. The fixed choke days are largely over as there aren't a lot of us still hunting with them for larger game animals.

I did exactly what you said this past season. I grabbed a shotgun and took it hunting with random buckshot. A Mossberg 835 20" with factory fiber optic sights(never zeroed) with a flush fitting factory full choke tube firing Remington Express 0B. That's 12 pellets of 0.32" diameter unplated shot. My shot came at thirty yards on the edge of thick brush. I fired at what I could see in a still standing shot. The deer went down hard immediately. I went in to find the pellets had struck six inches lower than intended and the hit was immobilizing, but non lethal. There for the grace of God go I. Two .45 ACP rounds were expended and I had my deer.

Hank I came up with this theory of velocity over choke during testing for patterns in a 14" barrel. I thought about the Vang Comp folks porting barrels and achieving better patterns in cylinder bore guns as well as my own experience with longer barrels having better patterns than short barrels with similar constrictions of chokes. I figured the 14" was not developing maximum velocity as it was selected for maneuverability and minimum serviceable magazine capacity. I also figured that the porting is slowing the shot column down leaving the muzzle. I turned out to be quite wrong in my assumption of velocity governing patterns. I failed to consider that there isn't much drag in a shotgun barrel and the pressures are relatively low given the narrow barrel thickness.

Barrel length vs. velocity in shotguns

This article suggests shows barrel length from 6.5" to 36" with velocity on the continual rise. Perhaps patterns are instead a function of pressure and constriction? With the barrels being so thin I find that hard to believe too.

You may be right. I may indeed know nothing at all.

Forrest, i know (believe based on what I’ve read and tested) that in general “slower velocities“ in shotguns result in tighter patterns.…all else being equal (choke, forcing cone length, etc..). There are competitions held for “tightest pattern” and most winners are shooting shells with 1000-1100 fps. The really hot loads 1300-1400 fps don’t pattern as tight. I’m sure there can be exceptions to this general trend.

 

[fishhead]

Marlin Super Goose 10G bolt action, not very classy but it did the job. I probably never attempted a shot beyond 50-60 yds on big game.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Forrest, i know (believe based on what I’ve read and tested) that in general “slower velocities“ in shotguns result in tighter patterns.…all else being equal (choke, forcing cone length, etc..). There are competitions held for “tightest pattern” and most winners are shooting shells with 1000-1100 fps. The really hot loads 1300-1400 fps don’t pattern as tight. I’m sure there can be exceptions to this general trend.

I'm very uncertain at this point. I've always held 1B as a good pattern, but usually the slowest of any given buckshot loading so it holds merit as they are subsonic on most days and fall into your golden velocity band. The Winchester double X supreme loads at 1450 are some blown out patterns. The wad is passing through the shot column. I wonder what could be done with the Flite control wad. The Hornady attempt to copy it was not effective in my testing.

 

[LivingTheDream]

If I may make a suggestion, I used a Super Black Eagle or Supernova with 3.5 00 buckshot (18 pellet) and killed quite a few deer. I found aiming for the neck/head made the biggest difference, rarely did I need a second shot, there was also very limited tracking.

 

[HankBuck]

If I may make a suggestion, I used a Super Black Eagle or Supernova with 3.5 00 buckshot (18 pellet) and killed quite a few deer. I found aiming for the neck/head made the biggest difference, rarely did I need a second shot, there was also very limited tracking.

LivingTheDream, i guess if it was a Doe - that would be fine because no concern for “busting” an antler and only need one pellet in brain or spine to drop the animal. However, that’s a small target and if the deer is close enough to count on your pattern hitting the head neck - you could also easily deliver plenty of pattern into heart/lung/liver/spine area by holding behind the shoulder. On a far shot (40+ yrds) half your pattern will be hitting nothing, might shatter jaw —- it’s just always a risk with Buckshot because it is “unreliable” at extended ranges (40+ yrds).

 

[BeeMaa]

If I may make a suggestion, I used a Super Black Eagle or Supernova with 3.5 00 buckshot (18 pellet) and killed quite a few deer. I found aiming for the neck/head made the biggest difference, rarely did I need a second shot, there was also very limited tracking.

I’d like to see a 40 or 50 yard pattern board with that shotgun/load/choke combination.

 

[HankBuck]

I’d like to see a 40 or 50 yard pattern board with that shotgun/load/choke combination.

BeeMaa, do You mean that You haven’t “already” pattern tested that load?? I’m shocked - expected you’d post photo’s and a full report, no one tests a choke/load/pattern more scientifically then You —- I actually save $$ by just reading your pattern test results (I never need to buy shells, targets, or time at the range - just read your comprehensive reports !).

 

[503]

I’d like to see a 40 or 50 yard pattern board with that shotgun/load/choke combination.

Check out Bubba Roundtree outdoors on YouTube. He does a ton of buckshot testing. It's pretty good.

 

[BeeMaa]

BeeMaa, do You mean that You haven’t “already” pattern tested that load?? I’m shocked - expected you’d post photo’s and a full report, no one tests a choke/load/pattern more scientifically then You —- I actually save $$ by just reading your pattern test results (I never need to buy shells, targets, or time at the range - just read your comprehensive reports !).

I don’t use buckshot for much beyond home defense. I’m going to the country this weekend and will see what I can do about getting some patterns with buckshot out of my Berrtta 1301.

 

[503]

I use #4 buck a lot for varmints etc. There's 41 pellets in a 12 gauge 3" shell. It's like a little claymore. Does well out to 50 ish yards on coyote and smaller. Patterns well in a full choke.

Probably work great inside a house too.

Cheers

503

 

[HankBuck]

I don’t use buckshot for much beyond home defense. I’m going to the country this weekend and will see what I can do about getting some patterns with buckshot out of my Berrtta 1301.

BeeMaa, thanks to You - no one on this form ever needs to Pattern Test anything - we can all just refer to your Posts & Photo’s with complete confidence (we should pay for your ammo!). Having spent decades hunting in NJ for deer when it was a “Buckshot Only” State - you can imagine the JOY when the State finally approved Slugs and MZ for deer hunting (circa 1980s?). Inside of 25 yrds — it’s impressive and actually Fun but given a choice - over 25 yrds I’ll always take a Slug or rifle over buckshot

 

[BeeMaa]

BeeMaa, thanks to You - no one on this form ever needs to Pattern Test anything - we can all just refer to your Posts & Photo’s with complete confidence (we should pay for your ammo!). Having spent decades hunting in NJ for deer when it was a “Buckshot Only” State - you can imagine the JOY when the State finally approved Slugs and MZ for deer hunting (circa 1980s?). Inside of 25 yrds — it’s impressive and actually Fun but given a choice - over 25 yrds I’ll always take a Slug or rifle over buckshot

The person you are thinking of with the extensive testing is most likely @Forrest Halley. I’ve done some, but not nearly what he has.