Who all is sitting in the woods with a rifle way to big for the critter they are after

[Shawn.54]

Luck is needed driven deer with a flintlock can be tricky.
Thanks guys
Shawn

 

[Shawn.54]

true black powder, greased patch, and a round ball.
do it the real way.
bruce.

That’s how I like it. My dad made the horn I made bullet board the brush and pick I buy patching by the yard and punch my own patches and pour the balls.
Shawn

 

[Scrumbag]

Luck is needed driven deer with a flintlock can be tricky.
Thanks guys
Shawn

Good luck buddy, hope you're ready to keep that swing goin'!

 

[CBH Australia]

Actually makes me think I should have bought my .375H&H with me, I’m planning to hunt some more with that just because I can
I just took my .308 for a walk but no pigs sighted.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

An Italian client in 1966 or 1967 met us at the Darjileeng Circuit House ( where guests used to stay )for a multiple animal Shikar . He brought a big magnum .458 Winchester rifle made by the firm , Birmingham Small Arms . Even though a foreign client hunter could bring two arms into India with 250 cartridges , this gentleman brought only the magnum.458 and many boxes of soft nose and hard nose metal envelope cartridges by the firm , Hornady. This gentleman wanted to shoot a barking deer , a boar , a leopard , a porcupine and a large male Gaur bison . The only animal actually suitable for that big rifle would be Gaur. The unfortunate gentleman missed every single one of the first three creatures . Finally , my partner let him use his .22 Long Rifle caliber Brno auto - loader for shooting a large porcupine which made him very happy . I have a picture of that Shikar as a souvenir. When the time came to shoot the Gaur , my client got excited and readied his big rifle. If only it were as good as it were big. The bullets , despite their excellent blunt heads , did not have a metal envelope strong enough to penetrate into the buffalo’s vital organs. The sad part is that the one animal for which the magnum .458 rifle would be proper gave us the most difficult time of that one week.
Today , in Bangladesh , l see a similar situation with most young men who go bird hunting. They seem to think that you need a 12 bore 89 millimeter cartridge for shooting quails and pigeons and they think that the 70 millimeter cartridge is for women.They also seem to gloat more about who can withstand how much recoil , rather than who is placing their shots properly . Needless to say , it is very rare that these young fellows actually succeed in shooting these fowl.

 

[CoElkHunter]

An Italian client in 1966 or 1967 met us at the Darjileeng Circuit House ( where guests used to stay )for a multiple animal Shikar . He brought a big magnum .458 Winchester rifle made by the firm , Birmingham Small Arms . Even though a foreign client hunter could bring two arms into India with 250 cartridges , this gentleman brought only the magnum.458 and many boxes of soft nose and hard nose metal envelope cartridges by the firm , Hornady. This gentleman wanted to shoot a barking deer , a boar , a leopard , a porcupine and a large male Gaur bison . The only animal actually suitable for that big rifle would be Gaur. The unfortunate gentleman missed every single one of the first three creatures . Finally , my partner let him use his .22 Long Rifle caliber Brno auto - loader for shooting a large porcupine which made him very happy . I have a picture of that Shikar as a souvenir. When the time came to shoot the Gaur , my client got excited and readied his big rifle. If only it were as good as it were big. The bullets , despite their excellent blunt heads , did not have a metal envelope strong enough to penetrate into the buffalo’s vital organs. The sad part is that the one animal for which the magnum .458 rifle would be proper gave us the most difficult time of that one week.
Today , in Bangladesh , l see a similar situation with most young men who go bird hunting. They seem to think that you need a 12 bore 89 millimeter cartridge for shooting quails and pigeons and they think that the 70 millimeter cartridge is for women.They also seem to gloat more about who can withstand how much recoil , rather than who is placing their shots properly . Needless to say , it is very rare that these young fellows actually succeed in shooting these fowl.

Kawshik,
How about skill? As I mentioned before, I use my 20 gauge Rem 1100 for doves as it generally takes more SKILL to hit a flying dove with a 20 vs. 12 gauge. I enjoy the challenge! I would use my 20 gauge on pheasants and grouse if it had a three inch chamber, but the older 1100s have only 2 3/4” chambers. Again, less recoil with the 20 when shooting many boxes of shells.
CEH

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Kawshik,
How about skill? As I mentioned before, I use my 20 gauge Rem 1100 for doves as it generally takes more SKILL to hit a flying dove with a 20 vs. 12 gauge. I enjoy the challenge! I would use my 20 gauge on pheasants and grouse if it had a three inch chamber, but the older 1100s have only 2 3/4” chambers. Again, less recoil with the 20 when shooting many boxes of shells.
CEH

Co Elk Hunter
I agree and have healthy respect for the 20 bore. It will be imported into my country by BSF from 2023 , hopefully. If it was imported into my country sooner , l can think of many talented female shooters and lighter frame shooters who would benefit from the reduced jar of 20 bore. It is imperative that a shooter possess skill with the 20 bore as the quantity of shot in the cartridge is less than a 12 bore ( though l am certain that a gentleman like yourself is already aware of this ) . Your skill with the Remington auto loader is commendable. Her Majesty , the Maharani of Bhopal used to own a pair of excellent side by side shot-guns in 20 bore made by the firm , Holland and Holland for shooting quail. Unfortunately , the renegade Indian government in 1972 reduced them to scrap metal after removing the power of all Maharajas . I dislike the 12 bore 89 millimeter cartridge because it has caused many of my pupils in BSF to develop a flinching habit. When many of these young men get their shot-gun license , they read absurd things on the internet and ask their parents to purchase them a 12 bore shot-gun capable of firing the 89 millimeter cartridge. The eager parents oblige and they come to the shooting club with these monstrosities . They then attempt to learn bird shooting with them but the recoil gives them much discomfort and their aim . However , due to some misguided form of masculine pride , they refuse to use a shot-gun with a 70 millimeter or even 76 millimeter cartridge. It makes our ( the instructor's ) work more unpleasant
On a related subject , it is from you that I have just learnt that the 20 bore has 76 millimeter cartridges as well. If l knew earlier , then l would have asked BSF to specify both 70 millimeter and 76 millimeter chamber guns to our importers for 2023. No matter , l will have them amend the form . Thank you .
I am curious about one thing . Has the 16 bore been pushed into obsolescence? During my career as a Shikari , 16 bore was quite popular among European clients for bird shooting , including a gentleman with a beautiful 16 bore side by side shot-gun of Belgian make. Today , l only hear of 12 bore or 20 bore and occasionally 28 bore.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Co Elk Hunter
I agree and have healthy respect for the 20 bore. It will be imported into my country by BSF from 2023 , hopefully. If it was imported into my country sooner , l can think of many talented female shooters and lighter frame shooters who would benefit from the reduced jar of 20 bore. It is imperative that a shooter possess skill with the 20 bore as the quantity of shot in the cartridge is less than a 12 bore ( though l am certain that a gentleman like yourself is already aware of this ) . Your skill with the Remington auto loader is commendable. Her Majesty , the Maharani of Bhopal used to own a pair of excellent side by side shot-guns in 20 bore made by the firm , Holland and Holland for shooting quail. Unfortunately , the renegade Indian government in 1972 reduced them to scrap metal after removing the power of all Maharajas . I dislike the 12 bore 89 millimeter cartridge because it has caused many of my pupils in BSF to develop a flinching habit. When many of these young men get their shot-gun license , they read absurd things on the internet and ask their parents to purchase them a 12 bore shot-gun capable of firing the 89 millimeter cartridge. The eager parents oblige and they come to the shooting club with these monstrosities . They then attempt to learn bird shooting with them but the recoil gives them much discomfort and their aim . However , due to some misguided form of masculine pride , they refuse to use a shot-gun with a 70 millimeter or even 76 millimeter cartridge. It makes our ( the instructor's ) work more unpleasant
On a related subject , it is from you that I have just learnt that the 20 bore has 76 millimeter cartridges as well. If l knew earlier , then l would have asked BSF to specify both 70 millimeter and 76 millimeter chamber guns to our importers for 2023. No matter , l will have them amend the form . Thank you .
I am curious about one thing . Has the 16 bore been pushed into obsolescence? During my career as a Shikari , 16 bore was quite popular among European clients for bird shooting , including a gentleman with a beautiful 16 bore side by side shot-gun of Belgian make. Today , l only hear of 12 bore or 20 bore and occasionally 28 bore.

Kawshik,
I think the obsolescence with the 16 gauge shotgun here in the U.S. is the cost of the ammo? 12 and 20 gauge ammo is generally much less expensive than 16 gauge as those gauges are much more popular and thus more ammo is produced at a cheaper cost. 410 gauge (actually a .41 caliber) ammo

here in the U.S. is much more than 12, 20 or 16 gauge! Much less components used to make the .410, but much less demand for that shotgun bore, thus higher costs to produce. My father in law’s first shotgun in the 1950s was a Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge. Very nice, but heavy shotgun, but the 16 gauge was more popular back then, and thus the ammo was cheaper.
CEH

 

[jeanes]

Mr. Rahman,

The 16 bore still has a relatively small but dedicated following. The shells are not always easy to find and are somewhat more expensive than 12 or 20 gauge, but not as costly as 28 bore or .410, at least in my area. I have two SxS in 16. My favorite is an LC Smith made in 1932. Like many older 16's it has a 2 9/16 inch chamber ( 65 mm, if I did my math correctly), making the shells for it even more costly. 16's are fun to shoot and I can see why your clients liked them.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Kawshik,
I think the obsolescence with the 16 gauge shotgun here in the U.S. is the cost of the ammo? 12 and 20 gauge ammo is generally much less expensive than 16 gauge as those gauges are much more popular and thus more ammo is produced at a cheaper cost. 410 gauge (actually a .41 caliber) ammo

here in the U.S. is much more than 12, 20 or 16 gauge! Much less components used to make the .410, but much less demand for that shotgun bore, thus higher costs to produce. My father in law’s first shotgun in the 1950s was a Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge. Very nice, but heavy shotgun, but the 16 gauge was more popular back then, and thus the ammo was cheaper.
CEH

Co Elk Hunter
Thank you. It is a good compromise between 12 bore and 20 bore , l should think.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Mr. Rahman,

The 16 bore still has a relatively small but dedicated following. The shells are not always easy to find and are somewhat more expensive than 12 or 20 gauge, but not as costly as 28 bore or .410, at least in my area. I have two SxS in 16. My favorite is an LC Smith made in 1932. Like many older 16's it has a 2 9/16 inch chamber ( 65 mm, if I did my math correctly), making the shells for it even more costly. 16's are fun to shoot and I can see why your clients liked them.

Jeanes
Thank you for explaining to me . In my professional hunting career , the 16 bore , l observed , was not popular at the time among my American clients . Continental visiting Shikaris were , however , incredibly find of them. Some had beautiful English side by side shot-guns , but the most beautiful examples l had seen were Belgian specimens . My English clients typically preferred 12 bore in side by side shot-guns but with 65 millimeter cartridges . Firms such as Holland and Holland and Joseph Lang were popular , and for good reason. They were some of the most beautiful guns for bird shooting l have ever seen . Continental sportsmen generally liked a 16 bore and Belgian shot-guns were the best examples of these.

 

[fourfive8]

As to original question... the largest mismatch I’ve done was an impala with a 416 Rem Mag shooting a NF Cup Point Solid- same load I’d just used on buff and eland. Extremely accurate load that worked perfectly on the impala with minimal meat damage.

I would much rather hunt with too much gun than with marginal or too little gun... which sadly seems to be “trendy” in some circles.

 

[Bas]

As to original question... the largest mismatch I’ve done was an impala with a 416 Rem Mag shooting a NF Cup Point Solid- same load I’d just used on buff and eland. Extremely accurate load that worked perfectly on the impala with minimal meat damage.

I would much rather hunt with too much gun than with marginal or too little gun... which sadly seems to be “trendy” in some circles.

Loved that last paragraph....

 

[Michael Dean]

I'd much rather see hunters hunting with rifles that would be considered over powdered as opposed to those who go afield under gunned. An animal deserves a quick clean kill, something that's not always obtainable when shooting marginal calibers such as the 223 when hunting deer.

While a 6mm is more than sufficient for killing a deer and, 30 calibers could be considered overkill, when less than optimal shots avail themselves having extra stopping power can mean the difference between dropping a deer in its tracks as opposed to an afternoon of tracking a wounded animal.

 

[Alistair]

Jeanes
Thank you for explaining to me . In my professional hunting career , the 16 bore , l observed , was not popular at the time among my American clients . Continental visiting Shikaris were , however , incredibly find of them. Some had beautiful English side by side shot-guns , but the most beautiful examples l had seen were Belgian specimens . My English clients typically preferred 12 bore in side by side shot-guns but with 65 millimeter cartridges . Firms such as Holland and Holland and Joseph Lang were popular , and for good reason. They were some of the most beautiful guns for bird shooting l have ever seen . Continental sportsmen generally liked a 16 bore and Belgian shot-guns were the best examples of these.

Mr Rahman,

Regarding the 16 bore, it still lives here in the UK as well. It's certainly a niche offering and I don't think many new guns are chambered in it as standard, but cartridges are available, and enough people own and love their old pieces that it endures.

I myself have a 1921 german made side by side hammer gun in 16 bore.

It's of no great pedigree, but I like it and it shoots as well today as it did nearly 100 years ago. I use it maybe twice a year for driven game and it performs admirably. I plan to take it grouse shooting for its centenary, finances allowing.

Cartridges however, are upwards of 3x the price of the equivalent 12 bore loading, so it is reserved exclusively for game and I use a selection of 12 bores for clays (a Beretta Silver Pigeon o/u, a spanish made 'Sable' sbs from the 1960s or 70s and a Beretta A400 semi-auto for pigeon and very occassionally the foreshore).

Regards,
Alistair

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Mr Rahman,

Regarding the 16 bore, it still lives here in the UK as well. It's certainly a niche offering and I don't think many new guns are chambered in it as standard, but cartridges are available, and enough people own and love their old pieces that it endures.

I myself have a 1921 german made side by side hammer gun in 16 bore.

It's of no great pedigree, but I like it and it shoots as well today as it did nearly 100 years ago. I use it maybe twice a year for driven game and it performs admirably. I plan to take it grouse shooting for its centenary, finances allowing.

Cartridges however, are upwards of 3x the price of the equivalent 12 bore loading, so it is reserved exclusively for game and I use a selection of 12 bores for clays (a Beretta Silver Pigeon o/u, a spanish made 'Sable' sbs from the 1960s or 70s and a Beretta A400 semi-auto for pigeon and very occassionally the foreshore).

Regards,
Alistair

Thank you so much for your explanation , Mr. Alistair. I have used 12 bore exclusively , during my childhood , my career as a professional Shikari and now for my personal use.
As l child , the very first gun l ever fired was a side by side shot-guns of 12 bore with 65 millimeter Chambers made by I Hollis , which was the proud possessions of my late father , who used it to supply our table with quite a few quails , pigeons and Chukar . During my career as a professional Shikari , l would use an Ishapore ( Indian manufacture ) side by side 12 bore two trigger shot-gun for the 70 millimeter cartridge loaded with SG in both the barrels . It originally came with 32 inches fully choked barrels . However , l clipped the barrels to 28 inches length and eliminated the chokes , so that l could fire SG shot from it . As inferior quality a weapon as it was , it still helped me kill 31 Leopards , 4 Royal Bengal tigers , and dozens of Gaur , boars , deer , birds and other game for the table until it finally began to misfire towards the end of 1969 . The strikers would not hit the cartridge primers with enough force to discharge the gun .
In 1990 , for my own use , l purchased a 12 bore Beretta model s686 Special over under with a single selection trigger and which takes the 70 millimeter cartridge . It's upper barrel is a full choke while it's lower barrel is a modified ( half ) choke. It suits me for all my needs for bird shooting , crane shooting and hare shooting. The half choke barrel allows me to use SG cartridge for Sambhar deer and in 1995 , l had killed my last leopard using this gun and a SG cartridge , before l fully retired from hunting dangerous animals .
However , l always have a healthy respect for the traditional English side by side shot-guns. They are pieces of art.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I'd much rather see hunters hunting with rifles that would be considered over powdered as opposed to those who go afield under gunned. An animal deserves a quick clean kill, something that's not always obtainable when shooting marginal calibers such as the 223 when hunting deer.

While a 6mm is more than sufficient for killing a deer and, 30 calibers could be considered overkill, when less than optimal shots avail themselves having extra stopping power can mean the difference between dropping a deer in its tracks as opposed to an afternoon of tracking a wounded animal.

Absolutely! That’s why I hunt elk with my .338 WM. Some might say overgunned? Maybe? But I’m not chasing a wounded elk (been there, done that, it really SUCKED) not mine either, all over the d*** mountains! If someone wants to partake in this exercise, then by all means, bring you 243. or 6mm for ELK, but I’m not helping you chase it if you wound it!

 

[crs]

Hey CEH. That rifle laying in the picture with my Colorado elk is a Ruger 77 tang safety .338 Win Mag.
It and my M70 .308 are sighted in to the same bullet trajectory so that I can use them interchangeably.

Both are great cartridges in great rifles; makes it easier on old nearsighted hunters..

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hey CEH. That rifle laying in the picture with my Colorado elk is a Ruger 77 tang safety .338 Win Mag.
It and my M70 .308 are sighted in to the same bullet trajectory so that I can use them interchangeably.

Both are great cartridges in great rifles; makes it easier on old nearsighted hunters..

Awesome! That’s great! Thanks!