Who was at fault, me or the PH?

[TOBY458]

If it were me, I would’ve looked for more animals with damaged horns. Buy one get one free is hard to beat! LOL!

 

[gearguywb]

Mistakes do happen, its more an issue of how it gets sorted out later.

I believe in trusting a PH/Guide. If you are focused on a making a clean, well executed shot, the last thing you should be doing is looking at the head (horns) of the animal then attempting to get back onto target to make a good shot.

It needs to be a partnership (IMHO), and as others have said, communication is key

 

[luger6]

@luger6, if I may ask why?

I’m not trying to be critical here, purely trying to understand. For example if you were made to believe the 53” bull was 56” or the Eastern Cape bull was over 50” and you were disappointed.

As a South African hunter that lives in an area where we are fortunate to have affordable kudu with very good genetics, I typically try to hunt mature animals with various shapes of horns, in other words, narrow, wide, deep curls, shallow etc, not bothering to much about the inches.

I do realise it is different for travelling sports hunters, and I always discuss that with a hunter beforehand, ie if he wants age, inches, symmetry, will he be interested in a malformed or broken horn and so forth.

A good Kudu in my book is over 55" with symmetrical horns and a good Estern should be pretty close to 50". 46" was apparently the average for trophy bulls in the area I hunted. I have no room for mediocre trophies on my walls. I was close to leaving my Buffalo Skull too as it was less than what I had paid for but when I got the price reduced took it home.

 

[Pablo]

No offense, but a 53” and a 46” would be trophies for 95% of hunters, me included.

 

[sestoppelman]

I had a similar thing happen to me many years ago, my 3 rd trip over. Was hunting sable, and PH spotted one, I was scoping him, moving and I remember he told me "one horn is shorter than the other",
to which I paid no mind as most often one horn is shorter than the other on all game animals. So I shot it and we got it down and it turns out one horn was broken off about 4 inches shorter than the other, not quite what I had envisioned.
As it didnt quite measure up to SCI or trophy size anyway, I decided to not make it an issue and had the taxidermist at home do some magic and make them the same length as it would have started out that way, being it was broken and not just malformed.

 

[gillettehunter]

I have had this problem several times..... Some my fault for pulling the trigger and some the PH's. On my first trip to Africa I was in Namibia and was hunting a red Hartebeest. In the evening and my PH had me kill one in a herd. I shot the one he told me to shoot and it was a cow. He kept saying, "its all my fault". Wound up as a N/C animal.
A few years ago in Zambia I was hunting hartebeest again. The PH got me on a "bachelor" herd and had me shoot one. It was a cow. He thought I killed the wrong one. We found the herd again 40 minutes later and he had me kill another one. It too was a cow. Then another of the remaining 2 perhaps 40 minutes later and it also was a cow............ All were N/C... PH error. Later I got a bull on another property. I have 1 cow and the bull horns as a Euro in my trophy room. Good for a laugh.
Perhaps my 3rd hunt in Africa in the East cape I shot a doink of a springbuck. The PH told me to shoot the 4th in line. One was behind a bush and I got the wrong one. I paid for that one......
Crap happens. After a couple of times you get a bit more cautious and make sure you and the PH are on the same page.
Bruce

 

[Dewald]

A good Kudu in my book is over 55" with symmetrical horns and a good Estern should be pretty close to 50". 46" was apparently the average for trophy bulls in the area I hunted. I have no room for mediocre trophies on my walls. I was close to leaving my Buffalo Skull too as it was less than what I had paid for but when I got the price reduced took it home.

Thank you for clarifying this @luger6. This again highlights the importance of good communication between PH and hunter, starting well before the hunt.

 

[luger6]

No offense, but a 53” and a 46” would be trophies for 95% of hunters, me included.

None taken, if 95% of hunters are happy with that its fine with me. But from what I knew then, Kudus where the tips of the horns point backwards are not fully grown. Here are pictures of two more animals that I paid full price for. I hunted on a farm in Namibia with a black tracker who only spoke Afrikaans so we had a little trouble communicating. I shot the eland on my own initiative and I had hoped that the Farmer would be happy that I removed it. The horn hangs on my wall now. I took the bushbok in Botswana 2019 where I had two PHs with me. The buck was facing us wrong so we didn't see what was wrong with him but both PHs thought it was a good trophy, think the antlers were a little over 16". I donated it to the farm as I thought such a unique trophy belonged there and not in Sweden. They promised to make a full mount of it and send pictures, but that has not happened as far as I know.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

that bushbuck is extremely cool

in my opinion when i take a client out, its a team effort
i try find good animals up to his expectation, get him into a good or best possible position to make a shot, his part is to make that shot as best he possibly can

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

mistakes are made, often, by both clients and PH's or guides
talk about it and sort it out so both parties are happy
we are all human after all

 

[enysse]

A trophy is the eye of the beholder. A 46” East Cape kudu is nice, yes it’s not over 50” that is rare. 53” Greater Kudu is still a great animal!

 

[swashington]

I will put a little different perspective on this. I am a fishing guide here in Florida. I have clients that lose good fish by doing exactly what I tell them not to do. It is very frustrating as a guide to work hard all day to get them on fish and have them screw it up. It is their fault? Hell yes, it is. Do I ever say that? No, everything that happens on that boat is my responsibility and my fault no matter who does it. The same should go with a hunting guide. Bad shots, making noise on a stalk, excited clients all make things difficult to a good animal, but the guide should take responsibility for it.
All that being said, it is the experience that counts not the trophy. If we lose a big fish instead of being upset, I give a high five to my client about the fight he experienced even though I am very unhappy inside. True happiness is in the experience not the thing hanging on the wall. In this case you got another animal for free, and someone got more meat for the table. Be happy about that.

 

[Speedster]

If you were hunting a trophy the PH should not have let you shoot a 24” Gemsbuck. Am I reading this correctly?

Well, the other horn was fine. The damaged horn was only 24 inches. I do not know if he realized it just before I shot or if he thought the damaged horn was over 24.

 

[Speedster]

The mistake was all on the PH. Thankfully both the PH and owner took responsibility.

We are constantly told to listen to our PH! Sounds like that is exactly what @Speedster did. Although I am still unclear if he actually shot another or not? @Speedster did you take them up on the offer and shoot a better Gemsbok?

When Gina 's dad was hunting his buffalo he asked the PH if he should bring his binos to which the PH said no. Then told him he wanted him on the gun lining up the shot when told to do so and to not get distracted by looking at horns or anything else that is the responsibility of the PH. Now this was a first and likely only buffalo for a guy who struggles to walk, especially through brush and over rocks. He got a fantastic buffalo!

Another situation had happened with another hunter just before we arrived. Basically the compete opposite of what the OP experienced. They had been struggling finding a good kudu on a property the PH had not hunted before. Every bull they saw had his horns up in thick trees so there was no good way to judge length. Then the PH spotted a bull that had huge bases and the PH just knew it was a really good one even though he could not see much of the horns. He told the hunter to shoot. The hunter hesitated because he could not see the horns. I believe the conversation was something along the lines of "shoot itvor give me the gun and I'll take it!"

The client ended up wounding it and they could find it after an exhaustive search. The hunt continued onto other properties and species.

Then right at the end of the hunt they got a call that the farm staff found the kudu bull dead and the PH had best come over. I believe the hunter was still in camp so they drove over. That kudu went 70 inches!!!

The cape was gone but they got the skull and horns. In fact it was in the salt shed yet. View attachment 626082View attachment 626083

ActionBob: Yes I did take another gemsbok. Actually the very next day.

 

[Speedster]

If it were me, I would’ve looked for more animals with damaged horns. Buy one get one free is hard to beat! LOL!

Toby:

You are right and the funny thing was, this was my favorite stalk of the entire hunt. As I said, we initially saw the herd about a half mile away and we played cat and mouse with it to get in close for a shot. I just thought a lot about it afterward if I should have been paying more attention or if my PH made a bad call. Maybe a little of both. It was only the second African animal I had ever shot so I was pretty green.

 

[Philip Glass]

Well, the other horn was fine. The damaged horn was only 24 inches. I do not know if he realized it just before I shot or if he thought the damaged horn was over 24.

Well, the other horn was fine. The damaged horn was only 24 inches. I do not know if he realized it just before I shot or if he thought the damaged horn was over 24.

where was the hunt?

 

[PARA45]

Sometimes, first time Africa hunters don't know best, and may not show the enthusiasm expected with the size of the animal. When I shot my Gemsbok (my first African animal taken), my PH was jumping of joy, and kept yelling it's a monster, it's a monster. I didn't know better, and didn't have anything to judge this animal with, like I would have a White Tail deer or a Mule Deer. Once we got back to camp, the owner came out to congratulate me, and I was like ok, thanks. Then the owner asked me if I had any idea about the size of the animal I had taken. I looked at him and basically said no. He then proceeded to explain to me that since owning the property, this was the second biggest Gemsbok taken in 20 years. He showed me in the record book where my animal score was, and that is when it hit me, and I realized the monster of a Gemsbok I had shot.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I will put a little different perspective on this. I am a fishing guide here in Florida. I have clients that lose good fish by doing exactly what I tell them not to do. It is very frustrating as a guide to work hard all day to get them on fish and have them screw it up. It is their fault? Hell yes, it is. Do I ever say that? No, everything that happens on that boat is my responsibility and my fault no matter who does it. The same should go with a hunting guide. Bad shots, making noise on a stalk, excited clients all make things difficult to a good animal, but the guide should take responsibility for it.
All that being said, it is the experience that counts not the trophy. If we lose a big fish instead of being upset, I give a high five to my client about the fight he experienced even though I am very unhappy inside. True happiness is in the experience not the thing hanging on the wall. In this case you got another animal for free, and someone got more meat for the table. Be happy about that.

Making a bad shot is a lot different than a big fish breaking off. Difficult for client to not take full responsibility for a bad shot (as in no blame whatsoever on the PH). Breaking off ... easy to put the blame somewhere else: poor equipment, didn't chase the fish properly with boat, etc.) ... if throwing around blame makes the client feel better.

I missed a nice hartbeest bull. Easy shot off the sticks that Helen Keller could have made. What is wrong with me? I don't miss shots like that. PH: "Agree. I know you can shoot." Oh well. First animal of the trip. Maybe I was too excited. We find another herd and after a couple hours stalk we are finally close enough. This time I hit it but immediately knew it was hit poorly. As best I can recall that is the only animal in sixty years of hunting that I clipped a leg. Definitely not where that bullet should have went! We run him down and I try to finish the poor bugger. Again the shot goes badly wrong. What the hell? PH asked if he should finish it. "Something's wrong with your gun. Gotta be." Yes, finish it. So he killed it with his handgun. After lunch we went to the range and my Springfield was all over the paper at fifty yards. We had checked it before hunting and one shot in the bull at 100 yards so stopped. Late that night I couldn't sleep fretting about it. Took the rifle out of the closet and checked everything. Rings tight, bases tight, ammo looks okay. As I was putting it away I thought I felt some movement. Sure enough, action was loose in the bedding. I had just rebarreled it three days before leaving. Apparently the new bedding shrank during curing. If the farmer we were staying with could have found a decent slotted screwdriver, I could probably have put my gun in order. He said tools have a way of walking as fast as he replaced them. PH had brought a spare rifle and I used it till we could get back to the lodge. All my fault. Ashamed that my PH had to clean up my mess. I made some great shots that safari including my longest ever. But I also missed a gimme at a fine waterbuck looking at us 150 yards on the sticks. PH says, "Well ... what did we do wrong?" I laughed. "WE didn't do anything wrong. I f*#>d up." Sometimes it's too easy to take the easy shots for granted and lose concentration. Or just forget about it altogether.

 

[rookhawk]

.In another thread that has garnered a lot of interest and replies, a person post about his bad experience with his PH and he was unhappy with an animal he shot that the PH told him to. I did not want to hijack the thread but I had a somewhat similar experience several years ago on my first trip to Africa and in hindsight I have wondered if I was at fault.
Here is what happened:'

We spotted a group of gemsbok about a half mile ahead and not wanting to spook them, jumped off the safari truck to begin a stalk. It was getting towards evening and the sun was getting low and straight in front of us so there was a considerable amount of glare as the sun was still above the treetops. It was a pretty dense area which allowed us to catch up to the gemsbok using the dense foliage as cover.

We finally got close and set up for a shot but the sun glare was so severe I had trouble seeing anything through the scope. We swung around to the right to get a better angle. We got a stroke of luck as we found a very small opening in the bush and the gemsbok started walking through it in single file. That gave me a chance for a shot. The PH said he would tell me when he saw one to shoot. I set up and was concentrating on the spot at which I could take the shot and finally the PH saw one walk through and said to shoot, which I did. It was a good shot and we found the gemsbok after a very short tracking.

When I walked up to it, my heart sank. One of the horns was bent back and splintered in 3 or 4 pieces. It was also very short. THE PH said that I did not have to pay for it and could hunt anther one since the damaged horn was less than 24 inches. That was fine but if I would have had to pay for that animal I would not have been happy. The PH even admitted to me he saw that the gemsbok's horn was damaged. As a newbie I did not say anything but in hindsight it rankled me.

So a couple things I have thought about and I am not sure If it was my fault or the PH's.
1. The owner said I could shoot another since one horn was less than 24 inches and their policy was a horn had to be at least that length. He never mentioned that the damaged horn made any difference and it appeared it was all about the length. I did not agree but said nothing. It made me feel that it was my responsibility to determine if an animal has a horn that is damaged (or just plain ugly) and I don't know why the PH did not tell me he saw that the horn was damaged.
2. I was naively relying on the PH to tell me when to shoot and because of the lighting conditions, was really concentrating on the spot rather than looking at the animal's horns. Also, since the animal was walking I had to make a snap shot before it disappeared. Was this my responsibility also?

I am not looking for any type of vindication. Just wondering from others if maybe it was on me. I have thought about the issue many times in the past and after reading the other post with a similar problem it made me wonder if I should have talked to the owner about what I felt or since I got the oppotunity to shoot another animal just keep my mouth shut and drop it.

Your outcome sounds about as good as possible. PH made a recommendation to shoot, you did. They ate the cost and let you harvest another.

I've hunted in areas of the world where the bag was pre-purchased from the government. I've had PHs recommend I shoot poor animals that were irreplaceable (could not buy more quota). Thus, I don't hunt with those PHs any longer. Obviously in my situation, no refunds, no apologies, no exchanges. You fared far better.

Experience cures all of this. An informed hunter wouldn't take the shot, an experienced PH wouldn't recommend the shot. In the interim, you got a free lesson and the PH absorbed the financial hardship...pretty good deal for valuable experience.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Sometimes, first time Africa hunters don't know best, and may not show the enthusiasm expected with the size of the animal. When I shot my Gemsbok (my first African animal taken), my PH was jumping of joy, and kept yelling it's a monster, it's a monster. I didn't know better, and didn't have anything to judge this animal with, like I would have a White Tail deer or a Mule Deer. Once we got back to camp, the owner came out to congratulate me, and I was like ok, thanks. Then the owner asked me if I had any idea about the size of the animal I had taken. I looked at him and basically said no. He then proceeded to explain to me that since owning the property, this was the second biggest Gemsbok taken in 20 years. He showed me in the record book where my animal score was, and that is when it hit me, and I realized the monster of a Gemsbok I had shot.

View attachment 626452

Can't fault someone's lack of showing hysterical enthusiasm after killing an animal.

I don't show the BS high five, body trembling, back slapping, enthusiasm like the TV hunters on the TV outdoor hunting shows do.

Actually I don't show a whole lot of enthusiasm for killing any animal. I just give a round of handshakes congratulating those involved in the hunt for putting me on a good animal. Because that is the end result of a good hunt. My enthusiasm is all about the hunt for the animal, not how it ended for the animal.

My second trip to Africa impala garnered a lot of enthusiasm from PHs, trackers, and skinners that showed up to admire and help with the animal after Lloyd, my PH's tracker, got it down to the road by himself, no matter how much I insisted on wanting to help him, Lloyd was more insistent on doing the work by himself.

Finally, I asked, What was so special about the impala? Another PH showed me the details they look at to determine this was a very nice animal.

The next day I relented to have the impala measured. It measured over 25 inches. My response, eh OK.

Later that afternoon/early evening back at the lodge, word arrived a hunter at a different outfitter successfully shot a 26 inch impal

Again my 59 inch kudu on my first trip to Africa. I was more enthusiastic over the hunt and the effort it took by all others involved: PH, trackers, farm rep, and the 5 skinners that hauled the kudu up the mountain side, load it on the back pan of a tractor, in pitch black darkness, refusing to use the headlamp or pocket LED flashlight I offered them.

Two or three days later a 60 inch kudu was successfully hunted at another outfitter.

My 25" Impala.