Why all the 6.5 Creedmoor Hate?

[ChrisG]

The advantages of the 6.5 Creedmoor and other "new" cartridges has very little to do with improvement in the cartridge design and everything to do with the barrel design. Standard cartridges were designed for standard bullets- bullets that used rifling twists of 1-10" or slower. New cartridges are using bullets of new design in that they have a lot of length to bore to gain high ballistic coefficients and thus need fast twists of 1-7". For the new cartridges (6.5CM) the barrels are 1-7".

I suspect if you had a match grade 1-7" twist barrel chambered for 6.5 x 55mm that it would be very competitive against the 6.5 CMs.

Standard twist for a 6.5x55 was 1:8 if I believe. That's what my Ruger was. The Swede M96 was twisted for the pencil-long, 160 grain RN FMJ. I believe they were a 1:7.8" if memory serves. Fast twist barrels have been around for a long time. The only 6.5s that didn't have them were likely the 264 WM and the 260 Rem. Americans at the time had no interest in long bullets, just high velocity. The old swede has always been as good or better than the creedmoor at lower pressure.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I like the 6.5 Creedmoor, it’s not magic, just a good easy to shoot Ctg. I actually find it near the 6.5X55 but in a readily available rifle.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Just curious, but why is the 6.5 Creedmoor so reviled? Certainly it has its limitations, but so does every cartridge. I wouldn't take a 22 LR for whitetail any more than I would take a Creedmoor for elephant (W.D.M Bell notwithstanding). That said, I came to hunting as an adult and my young son has learned hunting with me. When researching his first deer rifle, A Weatherby Vanguard Youth in 6.5 Creedmoor made good sense. Cheap, accurate, and loads of support for the cartridge. (I know a 6.5/55 would also have been great but price and availability were not good here). At 9 years old he killed his first whitetail with that rifle and has it accounted for probably a dozen or more by now. It is an efficient no nonsense killer of small to medium game and is perfect for where we live. I would think it would do reasonable service on small plains game as well.

We are point blank range hunters. I won't let him take a shot past 275 yards, but he has never had to. We can always sneak in closer than that.

We are not into social media and do not watch any hunting youtubers, so I'm out of touch with the trendy side of shooting sports. My preferences tend towards wood and blued bolt actions in calibers that Teddy Roosevelt could have shot, but the Creedmoor just works. My son is currently on an overnight hunting trip with a local Christian outdoor organization. They supply all the rifles if the kids need one, and they have a rack of Ruger Americans in 6.5 Creedmoor.

For all the hate, it seems to be a straw man argument. I know the Creedmoor cannot do anything that other cartridges didn't already do, except that the marketing and factory support have rocketed it to popularity so that it available and easy. Besides, which new cartridge has ever really brought a completely new capability to market? everything is to some extent derivative.

I guess I'm feeling a little self conscious about my decision, and I certainly don't want my son to grow a man bun. I doubt I have much to worry about. He is now 5ft 10 inches tall 14 years old and took his last two deer with a 45-70. Hopefully that will be enough to bring his testosterone back up!

I don't dispute that it is among one of the great Kid and newbie Ladies rounds!

 

[Ray B]

@C.W. Richter : Is there a season on kids and newbie ladies where you live? around here the only season we get is one on tourists.

 

[Tam Dl]

I don't hate it, but I already bought 2 6.5x55 rifles, and generally prefer that round.

What makes me hate it a little is that in Canada, at least compared to the US, if not the rest of the world, we get very little choice. 6.5 CM is about 50% of the whole market, particularly if one is talking market velocity/turns. For instance one of my preferred stores lists 174 6.5 CM rifles for sale, while it offers only 6 Swedes, 5 of which are uninspiring second had rifles. In a place where I spent 5 years trying to find a replacement barrel blank for a 22, I don't need anything that sucks more oxygen out of the market. But maybe it blows?

My other hate possibility is that it seems to go with the I Sniper mentality. In itself, I have nothing against the Comicon gun crowd. But there are already plenty of hunters who don't have the math to ferret out the ethical shots, this is just more fuel on the fire. However, I have never seen a problem of that sort myself. Good luck finding an 800m shot unless it is across a lake, and that would be illegal.

 

[Tam Dl]

It is like riding a bike uphill and you keep downshifting until you either fall over, or have to walk. Or in this case start shooting a 6.5 Grendel

 

[shootist~]

Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Comparison

Using the Chuck Hawks Killing Factor formula, a 6.5 CM 140 grain factory load is ~70% more powerful than a 243 100 grain load. If your CM has a long-ish throat, (mine does), you can load the 155 - 160 grain bullets at >2,600 fps. Fully equal to a modern Swede, yet in a conventional short action.

What's not to love? Especially if significantly more horsepower than a Bob's-Tomato-Stake is desired.

There will be those who might take the unethical shot at game regardless of caliber. Probably even more if their cartridge has "Magnum" attached to the name.

Got an old boring Rem 700 in 308? Screw on a new barrel in 6.5 CM for lots of fun at the range - or in the deer blind. My $.02.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Personally I just love the fact that the 6.5 Manbun crowd is so ready to defend their caliber.

Real man calibers like the .30-06, .300 WM, .375 H&H, and .458 Lott don't require defense. We can just get on with our lives without pausing to defend them because we know undoubtedly that the critic is a fool.

 

[Forrest Halley]

It is like riding a bike uphill and you keep downshifting until you either fall over, or have to walk. Or in this case start shooting a 6.5 Grendel

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen is downshifting like a mad man...last I heard he was shooting a .25-35 or something like that. Praying for miracles from a kw-aussie-powered quarterbore....

 

[sgt_zim]

Not hate, just annoyance at the large set of owners of them who think they're now shooting death rays and can kill any animal at any distance with them.

It's a 300 yard cartridge for most hunters and most game animals you'd hunt. Given the insanely high BC of Hornady's 143 gr ELD-X and 147 gr ELD-M and Nosler's 142 gr ABLR, it's a terrific cartridge for F-class or even National Match, would probably even make a good 900 meter cartridge for military snipers. The rules and ethics of shooting at armed adversaries are very different than the ethics of hunting.

 

[Ray B]

What makes me hate it is we get very little choice. 6.5 CM is about 50% of the whole market,

This is not the fault of the Creedmoor- This is a result of the 6.5x55 head diameter. the ammunition makers operate on economies of scale and want to change tooling settings as little as possible. As a result the readily available ammunition will be in one of three head sizes: .378", .473" & .532". These are the head sizes of .223, 7x57mm/.30-06. & Belted Magnums. I would venture a guess that well over 90% of rifle ammunition being manufactured is for cartridges with one of these three headsizes. To make something different such as 6.5x55 (.48"), 404 J (.550), or 6.5x54 MS (.454) they need to stop the equipment at the first level to set the case maker up for the different dimension, and then make cases for a limited market.
the availability/non-availability has more to do with business options than cartridge qualities.

 

[Inline6]

Personally I just love the fact that the 6.5 Manbun crowd is so ready to defend their caliber.

Real man calibers like the .30-06, .300 WM, .375 H&H, and .458 Lott don't require defense. We can just get on with our lives without pausing to defend them because we know undoubtedly that the critic is a fool.

Own all of the calibers listed except the 30-06 (I just shoot 308 instead has better factory ammo). I enjoy all the hate the 6.5CM receives, leave more ammo for me.

Not hate, just annoyance at the large set of owners of them who think they're now shooting death rays and can kill any animal at any distance with them.

It's a 300 yard cartridge for most hunters and most game animals you'd hunt. Given the insanely high BC of Hornady's 143 gr ELD-X and 147 gr ELD-M and Nosler's 142 gr ABLR, it's a terrific cartridge for F-class or even National Match, would probably even make a good 900 meter cartridge for military snipers. The rules and ethics of shooting at armed adversaries are very different than the ethics of hunting.

At 550 yards it has over 1200ftlb, 1000 to 680. Personally have made head shot on type Es at 1300 yards. Have taken the round to 1600 yards on several occasions. Was using Berger 130 VLD hunting bullets @ 2900fps. It is a great round if the fact it is well rounded. It is not something I would use in F-class they have much better options IMHO. As have as the military goes, the barrels in a 6.5 will probably be a 1/3 of what a 308 will last.

 

[sgt_zim]

It's a 300 yard cartridge for most hunters and most game animals you'd hunt

Can you shoot an elk with a bullet that's down to 1200 fpe? Sure. It's a plan, just not a great plan.
Should you shoot at an elk with a cup-and-core bullet where the impact velocity may well be 2750 or 2800? Again, sure, it's a plan, just not a great plan. Nosler Partition was invented for precisely this circumstance.

Would *I* take a quartering-to shot on a bull elk from 150 yards firing bullets for which the technology has been around since the 1890s? No, no I wouldn't. YMMV. Would I do it with an A Frame or Woodleigh or Oryx? Probably.

It's a 300 yard cartridge for all the reasons Nathan Foster cites here (WRT 6.5x55 Swedish): https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/6.5x55.html

 

[Inline6]

Can you shoot an elk with a bullet that's down to 1200 fpe? Sure. It's a plan, just not a great plan.
Should you shoot at an elk with a cup-and-core bullet where the impact velocity may well be 2750 or 2800? Again, sure, it's a plan, just not a great plan. Nosler Partition was invented for precisely this circumstance.

Would *I* take a quartering-to shot on a bull elk from 150 yards firing bullets for which the technology has been around since the 1890s? No, no I wouldn't. YMMV. Would I do it with an A Frame or Woodleigh or Oryx? Probably.

It's a 300 yard cartridge for all the reasons Nathan Foster cites here (WRT 6.5x55 Swedish): https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/6.5x55.html

You said game, not elk. Are you saying 1200 is not enough for whitetail or mule deer?

 

[mdwest]

Not hate, just annoyance at the large set of owners of them

^^ This ^^

The CM basically replicates the ballistics of the 6.5 Swede which has been effectively killing game (and men) for a very, very long time.. there is zero wrong with it..

The primary problem I see is a significant number of the people that have chosen the CM as their round.. the proverbial "man bun" crowd you see at the range that dont really know what they are doing, dont really care to learn, etc.. but think they are super cool shooting at gongs at 600 meters (missing 9 out of 10 shots) while espousing all of the technical, scientific virtues of the "new" long range round that out performs anything anyone else would dare shoot... (all the while some 55 year old dude in dirty jeans and a ragged t-shirt is banging the same gong 9 out of 10 times with his off the shelf savage 110 in 7-08..)..

You see a good bit of silly marketing as well that the "man bun" crowd feverishly buys into.. selling "long range hunting rifles" in a custom chassis with a 5-25x50 optic mounted on top as the best possible option for shooting texas whitetail at 110 yards from an enclosed blind, while the deer eat at a feeder, etc..etc..

whats wrong with the caliber... honestly.. nothing..

whats wrong with SOME of the shooters of that caliber? quite a bit..

all that said.. I see dufus shooters, hunters, etc with other silly shit banging away at the range and in the field pretty regularly as well...

It drives me equally crazy to watch guys shooting $2500 semi custom, tricked out AR's in .223 with muzzle brakes, $300 triggers, and $3500 optics mounted.. filling their magazines with wolf steel cased 55 grain ammo and wonder why they cant keep a 2" group at 100 meters with their super gun..

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen is downshifting like a mad man...last I heard he was shooting a .25-35 or something like that. Praying for miracles from a kw-aussie-powered quarterbore....

@Forrest Halley
I would love a nice single shot in 25-35 and load it up with nice pointy bullets or a 117grain round nose. Would be a dandy little deer round out to 200 yards. Hell even the 25-45 Sharpe's in my old 788 rem would be nice loaded with 75gn V Max or 87 grainers.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

^^ This ^^

The CM basically replicates the ballistics of the 6.5 Swede which has been effectively killing game (and men) for a very, very long time.. there is zero wrong with it..

The primary problem I see is a significant number of the people that have chosen the CM as their round.. the proverbial "man bun" crowd you see at the range that dont really know what they are doing, dont really care to learn, etc.. but think they are super cool shooting at gongs at 600 meters (missing 9 out of 10 shots) while espousing all of the technical, scientific virtues of the "new" long range round that out performs anything anyone else would dare shoot... (all the while some 55 year old dude in dirty jeans and a ragged t-shirt is banging the same gong 9 out of 10 times with his off the shelf savage 110 in 7-08..)..

You see a good bit of silly marketing as well that the "man bun" crowd feverishly buys into.. selling "long range hunting rifles" in a custom chassis with a 5-25x50 optic mounted on top as the best possible option for shooting texas whitetail at 110 yards from an enclosed blind, while the deer eat at a feeder, etc..etc..

whats wrong with the caliber... honestly.. nothing..

whats wrong with SOME of the shooters of that caliber? quite a bit..

all that said.. I see dufus shooters, hunters, etc with other silly shit banging away at the range and in the field pretty regularly as well...

It drives me equally crazy to watch guys shooting $2500 semi custom, tricked out AR's in .223 with muzzle brakes, $300 triggers, and $3500 optics mounted.. filling their magazines with wolf steel cased 55 grain ammo and wonder why they cant keep a 2" group at 100 meters with their super gun..

@mdwest
The same applies to the 243 60 years ogo when the great Winchester bullshit advertising launched it. Unfortunately people still believe it. Tell the same lies long enough and people believe it's gospel. ALL cartridges will kill game if used CORRECTLY. Unfortunately some people wear rose coloured glasses and won't listen to any negatives about their beloved cartridges. The manbun is a far better hunting cartridge than the 243. To me the 243 is still a shit hot round. 99% shit and 1% hot
Bob

 

[Tam Dl]

This is not the fault of the Creedmoor- This is a result of the 6.5x55 head diameter. the ammunition makers operate on economies of scale and want to change tooling settings as little as possible. As a result the readily available ammunition will be in one of three head sizes: .378", .473" & .532". These are the head sizes of .223, 7x57mm/.30-06. & Belted Magnums. I would venture a guess that well over 90% of rifle ammunition being manufactured is for cartridges with one of these three headsizes. To make something different such as 6.5x55 (.48"), 404 J (.550), or 6.5x54 MS (.454) they need to stop the equipment at the first level to set the case maker up for the different dimension, and then make cases for a limited market.
the availability/non-availability has more to do with business options than cartridge qualities.

I am not saying they should be making 55s, I am mainly just talking, but it sucks when you look for stuff and all you see are Creedmoor. Now in a small place like this, that may be the lifeblood of the industry... Life would be easier if along with an "in stock" button, there was a "not creedmoor" button.

Your point makes a lot of sense... Enter the 6.5 Grendel.

 

[colorado]

270 Win so much better than a 6.5 CM without the hype

 

[sgt_zim]

270 Win so much better than a 6.5 CM without the hype

You were likely just born 50 or 60 years after the hype. I hear the same thing from a lot of 270 fan bois that I hear from 6.5 manbun fan bois. They're both solid cartridges, but not really better than any other small bore in any meaningful way.

It always goes something like "the 270 is a REAL flat-shooter."

Yeah, and so is nearly every other modern, bottle-neck cartridge out to around 300 yards.

Using MPBR for a white tail sized target, a 270 firing a 130 gr bullet at around 3050 is about a whopping 2" flatter than a 6.5 firing a 140 gr bullet at 2700 fps at 300 yards.