Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[bruce moulds]

always remember.
bullets. bullets, bullets.
when roy started out there were not the bullets available there are now.
my 7mm stw is the same.
you need the right bullet where a 7x57 can get away with any grungy old bullet preferably heavy to play it safe.
the stw with 150 gn barnes can do some things, and do them a fair way out.
bruce.

 

[WAB]

The flat trajectory of small to mid sized Wby calibers has a lot of appeal. I have always been intrigued with the .257 Wby. However, on the .375+ cartridges intended for dangerous game I just don’t see the point. 2300 fps is just about ideal for big lead slugs driving through three plus feet of buffalo or elephant. These animals are not, and should not be hunted at long range. IMO cartridges like the .460 Wby are solving a problem that does not exist.

 

[35bore]

Beat me to it. I had read your post and in no way have you said all or implied all.

I go with my second choice, he was proving my point.

 

[colorado]

Actually the 375 Weatherby is bassicly a 375 H&H Improved with a slight increase in velocity. Then they came out with the .378 Weatherby that is a lot more powerful than the 375 H&H or the 375 Weatherby.

Exactly, unfortunately the two 375 Weatherby and 378 Weatherby are often confused. I have a Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby that weighs 7 1/2 lbs. The recoil is mild compared to my 12 lb 500 Jeffery. It can shoot factory 375 H&H rounds (I used factory Remington ammunition loaded with 300g A-Frames to take my brown bear) and with Weatherby ammunition or handloads, it will shoot 300g bullets at 2800 fps. That outstrips the vaunted 338 Win Mag in drop and power out at longer ranges. The 375 Weatherby is a great cartridge and can be installed by merely reaming the chamber in any rifle chambered for 375 H&H.

 

[Tra3]

I weighed 161 pounds when I first fired a .460 and .378 Weatherby. I didn't find the recoil to be unmanageable. In fact, I enjoy shooting my .340 Wby and it's my preferred rifle. No one on this site who played football, if at only the high school level, dared complain to their football coach about the pain of a head-on shoulder tackle ( a heckuva a lot more pressure than 100 ft-lbs) so why do they complain about a few pounds of pressure shooting a rifle, just because they don't like the brand? Perhaps, we're dealing with the pudgies I see on the African Safari videos on YouTube. I told a safari hunting friend just last week that I feel as thought I need to gain an extra 100 pounds to qualify to go on a safari. Or, to be a PH.

I think this analogy misses the point about recoil and accuracy. Nobody takes a hit in football without flexing muscles to more rigidly absorb an impact. With shooting, that is called a flinch.

 

[IvW]

i'm raising my B.S. flag on this guy. I've owned 6 Weatherby's, have never had such a problem, and have never talked to a WBY owner or shooter who has.

Perhaps you should Google more and watch less Youtube...you will find lots of information regarding issues with Weatherby rifle safeties.

I have personally escaped being shot by Weatherby rifles used by hunters twice due to unintended firings....

Weatherby themselves have recalled thousands of rifles(and shot guns) with safety issues..

But I guess if you own them and you like them than even if they have a problem they will still be the favorite of some...

Vanguard Stainless Safety Notice​

Weatherby has found on some Stainless Steel Vanguard Rifles the barrel nut is not tightened to the required torque specifications. The use of teh rifle with an improperly torqued barrel nut may lead to a failure in a discharge situation which could result in personal injury.

Vanguard Safety Notice​

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE​

VANGUARD® BY WEATHERBY RIFLE​

Weatherby, Inc. of Paso Robles, California, is performing a safety upgrade on all Vanguard® by Weatherby brand rifles manufactured between the years 1970 to 1993.
The affected rifles bear serial numbers from one of the following series on the receiver: 00001 through 03810; V00001 through V80966; VX00001 through VX44065; VS00001 through VS23699; VL00001 through VL46984; W0001 through W0099; NV0001 through NV0099. The safety upgrade will replace the bolt sleeve to prevent misassembly of the bolt, which might occur on the affected rifles. Such misassembly might result into a hazardous condition in which the rifle can be accidentally discharged without the bolt being fully engaged, causing severe injury.
WARNING: If you own a Vanguard® by Weatherby rifle with a serial number from one of the serial number series referred to above: USE OF YOUR RIFLE MAY RESULT IN AN ACCIDENT AND SEVERE INJURY. STOP USING YOUR RIFLE IMMEDIATELY and click on this link https://weatherby.com/contact-us to receive a Bolt Return Kit. Only the bolt sleeve is being upgraded. Your bolt will be returned to you after the upgrade. If you do not have web access, call Weatherby at (307) 675-7840 to receive a Bolt Return Kit.
NO OTHER WEATHERBY RIFLES ARE AFFECTED. CHECK YOUR SERIAL NUMBER.
The affected rifles were originally sold through licensed gun dealers nationwide, and some of them may have been resold by the original owners through retail gun dealers, trade shows or privately. If you have sold, traded or given away an affected Vanguard® by Weatherby rifle, it is important for you to forward this Safety Notice to the current owner.
Weatherby apologizes for any inconvenience to its customers resulting from this safety upgrade program, but it is important that owners of affected rifles take advantage of this free upgrade program and do not use an affected rifle before it has been upgraded. All work will be done at the factory at no charge. Return the bolt only, not the entire rifle. Please do not return your Vanguard® by Weatherby bolt to the factory before contacting us at either https://weatherby.com/vanguardsafety/registrationor (307) 675-7840 for your Bolt Return Kit.
RETURN TO SAFETY CENTER

28 SA-08 Gauge Safety Notice​

Weatherby, Inc. of Paso Robles, California, is performing a product safety recall on a limited number of Weatherby® SA-08 model semi-automatic shotguns sold by Weatherby, Inc., beginning March 11, 2013.

READ THE SAFETY NOTICEREAD HOW TO IDENTIFY IF YOUR SHOTGUN HAS BEEN REPAIRED

The safety recall is based on reported incidents of accidental discharge upon bolt closure and chambering of a live shot shell. A corrective safety upgrade has been identified, which will be fully implemented upon completion of testing to achieve assurance that the safety upgrade prevents occurrences of accidental discharge as reported. Accidental discharge of any firearm can result in severe injury or property damage if the muzzle of the firearm is pointed in an unsafe direction at the time of accidental discharge.

WARNING:​

USE OF YOUR SHOTGUN MAY RESULT IN AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE AND SEVERE INJURY. STOP USING YOUR SHOTGUN IMMEDIATELY and call Weatherby at (307) 675-7840 or check your serial number above to receive instructions on how to return the shotgun for the safety recall.
Weatherby apologizes for any inconvenience to its customers resulting from this safety recall program, but it is important that owners of affected shotguns take advantage of this free repair program and do not use an affected shotgun before it has been repaired. All work will be done at the factory at no charge. Please do not return your Weatherby® SA-08 28 Gauge shotgun to the factory before contacting us for return instructions.

SA-08 Safety Notice​

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE​

WEATHERBY® SA-08 SEMI-AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN​

Weatherby, Inc. of Paso Robles, California, is performing a safety upgrade on a limited number of Weatherby® SA-08 model semi-automatic shotguns manufactured and sold by Weatherby, Inc., between June 1, 2010 and February 28, 2011. The affected shotguns bear serial numbers on the receiver within the following series: AD06825 – AD13793 (inclusive). The safety upgrade will replace the trigger/firing assembly of the affected shotgun, and prevent a potential accidental discharge, which could occur if certain parts were to become loose. Accidental discharge of any firearm can result in severe injury or property damage if the muzzle of the firearm is pointed in an unsafe direction at the time of accidental discharge.
WARNING: If you own a Weatherby® SA-08 model semi-automatic shotgun with a serial number within any of the serial number series referred to above, USE OF YOUR SHOTGUN MAY RESULT IN AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE AND SEVERE INJURY. STOP USING YOUR SHOTGUN IMMEDIATELY and call Weatherby at (307) 675-7840 to receive instructions on how to return the shotgun’s trigger/firing assembly for the safety upgrade. Upon receipt of your trigger/firing assembly, a replacement assembly will be sent to you.
NO OTHER WEATHERBY® SHOTGUNS ARE AFFECTED BY THIS SAFETY NOTICE. CHECK YOUR SERIAL NUMBER.
The affected shotguns were originally sold through licensed wholesale distributors and gun dealers nationwide, and some of them may have been resold by the original owners through retail gun dealers, trade shows or privately. If you have sold, traded or given away an affected Weatherby® SA-08 model semi-automatic shotgun, it is important for you to forward this Safety Notice to the current owner.
Weatherby apologizes for any inconvenience to its customers resulting from this safety upgrade program, but it is important that owners of affected shotguns take advantage of this free upgrade program and do not use an affected shotgun before it has been upgraded. All work will be done at the factory at no charge. Please do not return your Weatherby® SA-08 shotgun to the factory before contacting us for return instructions.

 

[Red Leg]

Actually, the same line of thinking was espoused by DOD in the early to mid sixties about the M-16 rifle and 5.56 round. I know, because I heard that in "official" M-16 training classes.

I suspect I have heard and studied a lot more about the decision to move to the 5.56 than most. It had everything to do with basic load, the actual range in which firefights took place, and the realization that a wounded enemy was more often than not of greater utility than a dead one. And basic load not only meant the rifleman's own ammunition, but the extra mortar round or two and MG ammunition he could now carry. We estimated that switching to the 5.56 increased the combined firepower of an infantry platoon as much 300%. It is why every other major power in the world to include the Russians have done exactly the same thing. Pretty smart fellows those DOD guys weren't they? And yes, it is easier to train a new recruit on a lighter recoiling rifle - it doesn't introduce all that flinching nonsense that seems to effect all too many using too much gun.

 

[PARA45]

I own several Weatherby Mark Vs, and one Vanguard rifle, and there is a huge difference between the Vanguard and the Mark V rifles. None of my Weatherbys have experience any AD, and when I load and unload them, I point them in a safe direction. Issues with firearms is not uncommon and not necessarily means that all of the rifles manufactured by the said company are bad. Yes I like Weatherbys, and I also like Rugers No1s, and I'm also not blind to say that they are perfect or the best.

That is like those who bash Blaser rifles without owning one, just because they heard this or that at the range or on Youtube. Everyone has their own taste, and if you don't like said rifle, that is your choice. Luckily we live in a world where we still have choices and we buy what we like.

How many times have you seen a powder being recalled? That does mean that particular manufacturer of powder is bad? No, sh*t happens, and it's great to have companies that acknowledge their mistakes, and are whiling to fix them or get sued in this happy sue world we live in.

 

[rookhawk]

I suspect I have heard and studied a lot more about the decision to move to the 5.56 than most. It had everything to do with basic load, the actual range in which firefights took place, and the realization that a wounded enemy was more often than not of greater utility than a dead one. And basic load not only meant the rifleman's own ammunition, but the extra mortar round or two and MG ammunition he could now carry. We estimated that switching to the 5.56 increased the combined firepower of an infantry platoon as much 300%. It is why every other major power in the world to include the Russians have done exactly the same thing. Pretty smart fellows those DOD guys weren't they? And yes, it is easier to train a new recruit on a lighter recoiling rifle - it doesn't introduce all that flinching nonsense that seems to effect all too many using too much gun.

The US Military knows more about ammo and feet than anybody. I listen very carefully when I hear there suggestions and rejections.

 

[PARA45]

The US Military knows more about ammo and feet than anybody. I listen very carefully when I hear there suggestions and rejections.

That's now. When I joined in the 80s, we used the nasty all leather and leather soles combat boots. Tough on our feet, until our TIs taught us to soak them in water, and then wear them. Oh boy what a difference did that made. LOL!!!!!

 

[Red Leg]

I weighed 161 pounds when I first fired a .460 and .378 Weatherby. I didn't find the recoil to be unmanageable. In fact, I enjoy shooting my .340 Wby and it's my preferred rifle. No one on this site who played football, if at only the high school level, dared complain to their football coach about the pain of a head-on shoulder tackle ( a heckuva a lot more pressure than 100 ft-lbs) so why do they complain about a few pounds of pressure shooting a rifle, just because they don't like the brand? Perhaps, we're dealing with the pudgies I see on the African Safari videos on YouTube. I told a safari hunting friend just last week that I feel as thought I need to gain an extra 100 pounds to qualify to go on a safari. Or, to be a PH.

I really hate the tough guy analogies - football or otherwise. First of all, getting hit by a lineman has nothing to do with shooting a rifle accurately. It is a false analogy. And then you puff out your on-line chest calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a "pudgie." That is the sort of nonsense one heard in the 11th grade. Actually, who you are dealing with is a lot of folks with extensive hunting and shooting experience - much of it worldwide.

I think the .300 WBY may be the most useful all purpose cartridge ever made - but it is of only slightly more utility than a host of other fast thirties that now populate the cartridge universe - none of which an elk could discern a wit of difference between upon being shot. In that caliber, the big drawback was always the ergonomics of the Weatherby design. Only speaking for myself, the angular stock of a Mark V is the least naturally useful one I have ever seen on a production rifle - to me it is like handling a high grade 2x4. And yes, I have owned several - they just don't hang around very long.

With respect to the larger bores, I just don't get them for any hunting that I do. I will certainly agree that a .340 on paper is more and better than a .338 Win Mag. I just don't need more an better for any animal I will take with a .33 at any reasonable hunting range. Heck, my favorite .33 is the 318 WR - look up those ballistics with a 250 gr bullet. The larger ones make even less sense to me. I cannot think of any situation in Africa where a magnum .375 would somehow be superior to a 300 gr SP from a H&H chambered rifle. That is not meant to say that the .378 won't work - I just don't get the why. It gets even less logical when moving up from there in comparison to the sheer effectiveness and utility of the .416 or lowly .404.

 

[rookhawk]

That's now. When I joined in the 80s, we used the nasty all leather and leather soles combat boots. Tough on our feet, until our TIs taught us to soak them in water, and then wear them. Oh boy what a difference did that made. LOL!!!!!

You were the guinea pig.

 

[Red Leg]

That's now. When I joined in the 80s, we used the nasty all leather and leather soles combat boots. Tough on our feet, until our TIs taught us to soak them in water, and then wear them. Oh boy what a difference did that made. LOL!!!!!

Yep. In Ranger school we were doing five mile runs in leather combat boots. It's a small wonder I can walk at all today.

 

[PARA45]

I know the feeling sir! LOL!!!!!

 

[rookhawk]

The folly in data:

The maximum point blank range of a 300 winmag 150gr is 321 yards. Point and click shooting out to that distance. The maximum point blank range of a 300 Weatherby 150gr is 343 yards. So you gain 22 yards without having to do any hold-over with the weatherby. How often does the average person take a shot in that 322-343 yard range where that 300winmag wasn’t enough but the 300weatherby saved the day?

The price you pay? Your recoil goes from 23 Foot Pounds of Recoil to 34 Foot Pounds of Recoil. As @Red Leg will attest, the military tested infantry shooting skills and found best accuracy was achieved by soldiers when the military keeps their recoil under 20 foot pounds for repeatable, consistent accuracy from the shooter. (hence .308, 30-06, 303 Brit, 8mm Mauser) So the average person in the process of gaining those extra 22 yards of flat shooting is probably going to be losing accuracy along the way so their poor shots get to the target faster.

The other price you pay? You probably don’t just own a Weatherby cartridge, you own a Weatherby gun. For the price of a weatherby you can buy very fine guns that aren’t pawn-shop worthy in 5 years. Seems like a tremendous sum of money for what they are.

 

[Ray B]

When I joined in the 80s,

I'll see your bet and raise you another 20. Back in the day.....

 

[tn4lee]

I really am struggling to understand how a body being hit by another person compares to rifle recoil. Now if you compared a punch I can see the similarities. I am not sure all are complaining about the recoil produced by the Roys simply because they don't like the brand. Some maybe. Don't forget the Weatherby cartridges generally generate a faster recoil than most. This can make them uncomfortable for a lot of people.

I like my 416 Rigby when I load it using AR2209 powder. Don't like it with AR2213SC. The recoil becomes swifter and harsher. Some effect with some of Roy's cals. to harsh/swift for me. As I have said, I hate the look of his stocks but they sure work at reducing felt recoil, well for me anyway.

As for putting on weight to handle recoil, well that has been shown to be an urban myth by many.

For those who have shoulders dislocated while making football tackles there isn't much difficulty in understanding. My point being that we experience strong impact in a lot of the things we do....especially for fun....and we don't complain or whine.

 

[tn4lee]

The flat trajectory of small to mid sized Wby calibers has a lot of appeal. I have always been intrigued with the .257 Wby. However, on the .375+ cartridges intended for dangerous game I just don’t see the point. 2300 fps is just about ideal for big lead slugs driving through three plus feet of buffalo or elephant. These animals are not, and should not be hunted at long range. IMO cartridges like the .460 Wby are solving a problem that does not exist.

In some of the videos that I've watched, and obviously criticized for watching, the buffalo was not stopped on the first shot, but turned away from the shooter and ran away. In one case, a second shot in the rear end didn't have sufficient energy to slow the bull down, yet alone drop it. In that instance, the wounded bull made a wide, distant, sweeping 270 degree turn to cross, once again, in front of the shooter (but at a much longer range). At this point, the shooter needed a more potent caliber for range. The shooter then hit the bull with 3 more shots from his .375, and the PH intervened with two shots to get him to lay down. They didn't follow up with the video to the bull, or possibly edited it, so that we don't know if the bull was finally dead. 5 shots from the .375 shooter and two from the guide. Those hunters probably did not anticipate having to shoot at a longer range.

 

[IvW]

In some of the videos that I've watched, and obviously criticized for watching, the buffalo was not stopped on the first shot, but turned away from the shooter and ran away. In one case, a second shot in the rear end didn't have sufficient energy to slow the bull down, yet alone drop it. In that instance, the wounded bull made a wide, distant, sweeping 270 degree turn to cross, once again, in front of the shooter (but at a much longer range). At this point, the shooter needed a more potent caliber for range. The shooter then hit the bull with 3 more shots from his .375, and the PH intervened with two shots to get him to lay down. They didn't follow up with the video to the bull, or possibly edited it, so that we don't know if the bull was finally dead. 5 shots from the .375 shooter and two from the guide. Those hunters probably did not anticipate having to shoot at a longer range.

Rarely are buffalo "stopped" or dropped on the first shot. 99% of the time they run away after the first shot. Shots in the rear end will only stop them if the spine or a hip joint is hit with a premium grade expanding bullet or rarely with a solid. Sufficient energy does not slow buffalo down only well placed shots with premium grade expanding bullets do. Once they are wounded and get going they can take a lot of lead. First shot placement, first shot placement, first shot placement........

Most importantly the first shot placement with a decent expanding bullet is the key to success, not energy or excessive muzzle velocity.

I do not really get they point of this post....should we all convert to higher velocity high recoiling rifles in case we make a bad first shot and we get a chance of another shot at much longer distance??

If the hunter could not make the first shot at close range on a un disturbed buffalo how is he going to make the shot at a much longer range with the same rifle??

I suggest you read this thread for some very valuable information regarding hunting in Africa and caliber choice from a very experienced and respected PH...

Is Bigger Always Better?

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette. A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture): Let me know your thoughts....

www.africahunting.com

 

[Red Leg]

In some of the videos that I've watched, and obviously criticized for watching, the buffalo was not stopped on the first shot, but turned away from the shooter and ran away. In one case, a second shot in the rear end didn't have sufficient energy to slow the bull down, yet alone drop it. In that instance, the wounded bull made a wide, distant, sweeping 270 degree turn to cross, once again, in front of the shooter (but at a much longer range). At this point, the shooter needed a more potent caliber for range. The shooter then hit the bull with 3 more shots from his .375, and the PH intervened with two shots to get him to lay down. They didn't follow up with the video to the bull, or possibly edited it, so that we don't know if the bull was finally dead. 5 shots from the .375 shooter and two from the guide. Those hunters probably did not anticipate having to shoot at a longer range.

That is not a very relevant example. Nowhere in Africa could a buffalo run far enough in the immediate aftermath of a shot to be considered "long range" for a 300 gr .375 or .400 gr .416. If the first shot is in the wrong place it doesn't matter what sort of wonder magnum a hunter might be using - everyone is in for an interesting time. Another little ballistics secret is that increased velocity does not necessarily increase penetration - particularly with a SP. J.A. Hunter (he didn't do any videos) thought the deepest penetrating bullet he had ever encountered was the 250 gr solid from a .318 Westley Richards (US .33 cal) moving along at a sedate 2400 fps. The Woodleigh SP does almost as well.

Hit a a buffalo in the right spot with a quality 300 gr SP at 2500 fps and he is dead. Period. That same 2500 fps gives the client a PBR beyond 200 meters which is 100 meters beyond any shot at a DG animal a client will be allowed to take and plenty for the vast majority of PG opportunities. The extra horsepower is irrelevant. It is particularly irrelevant if the bullet is in the wrong place.

For those who have shoulders dislocated while making football tackles there isn't much difficulty in understanding. My point being that we experience strong impact in a lot of the things we do....especially for fun....and we don't complain or whine.

Again, I am missing your point. I just looked at your profile. I assume at 77 you aren't blocking many linebackers these days. Neither am I. Balancing the effect of recoil isn't about whining or being tough, it is about using the most effective tool to take down a particular quarry. For hunting in Africa, at 2500 fps, velocity ceases to be a major concern while bullet quality, rifle ergonomics and transportability, and speed and accuracy of a second shot take on the greatest importance. None of those issues are mitigated by greater velocity or recoil.