Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[tn4lee]

I really hate the tough guy analogies - football or otherwise. First of all, getting hit by a lineman has nothing to do with shooting a rifle accurately. It is a false analogy. And then you puff out your on-line chest calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a "pudgie." That is the sort of nonsense one heard in the 11th grade. Actually, who you are dealing with is a lot of folks with extensive hunting and shooting experience - much of it worldwide.

I think the .300 WBY may be the most useful all purpose cartridge ever made - but it is of only slightly more utility than a host of other fast thirties that now populate the cartridge universe - none of which an elk could discern a wit of difference between upon being shot. In that caliber, the big drawback was always the ergonomics of the Weatherby design. Only speaking for myself, the angular stock of a Mark V is the least naturally useful one I have ever seen on a production rifle - to me it is like handling a high grade 2x4. And yes, I have owned several - they just don't hang around very long.

With respect to the larger bores, I just don't get them for any hunting that I do. I will certainly agree that a .340 on paper is more and better than a .338 Win Mag. I just don't need more an better for any animal I will take with a .33 at any reasonable hunting range. Heck, my favorite .33 is the 318 WR - look up those ballistics with a 250 gr bullet. The larger ones make even less sense to me. I cannot think of any situation in Africa where a magnum .375 would somehow be superior to a 300 gr SP from a H&H chambered rifle. That is not meant to say that the .378 won't work - I just don't get the why. It gets even less logical when moving up from there in comparison to the sheer effectiveness and utility of the .416 or lowly .404.

My comments about "budgie" hunters, who proliferate in the Dangerous Game videos, reflects their lack of physical conditioning and personal discipline when they pursue big or dangerous game.....that wealthy or poor slob who doesn't take seriously his personal responsibility for his performance in hunting and his potential to take large and dangerous game humanely. Since I don't live in Africa I have to take advantage of the media, especially that which purports to promote the hunting of African game. 50 gallon pot bellies appear in almost all of the videos that I've watched. Deal with it.

 

[IvW]

That is not a very relevant example. Nowhere in Africa could a buffalo run far enough in the immediate aftermath of a shot to be considered "long range" for a 300 gr .375 or .400 gr .416. If the first shot is in the wrong place it doesn't matter what sort of wonder magnum a hunter might be using - everyone is in for an interesting time. Another little ballistics secret is that increased velocity does not necessarily increase penetration - particularly with a SP. J.A. Hunter (he didn't do any videos) thought the deepest penetrating bullet he had ever encountered was the 250 gr solid from a .318 Westley Richards (US .33 cal) moving along at a sedate 2400 fps. The Woodleigh SP does almost as well.

Hit a a buffalo in the right spot with a quality 300 gr SP at 2500 fps and he is dead. Period. That same 2500 fps gives the client a PBR beyond 200 meters which is 100 meters beyond any shot at a DG animal a client will be allowed to take and plenty for the vast majority of PG opportunities. The extra horsepower is irrelevant. It is particularly irrelevant if the bullet is in the wrong place.

Again, I am missing your point. I just looked at your profile. I assume at 77 you aren't blocking many linebackers these days. Neither am I. Balancing the effect of recoil isn't about whining or being tough, it is about using the most effective tool to take down a particular quarry. For hunting in Africa, at 2500 fps, velocity ceases to be a major concern while bullet quality, rifle ergonomics and transportability, and speed and accuracy of a second shot take on the greatest importance. None of those issues are mitigated by greater velocity or recoil.

Exactly...

 

[tn4lee]

Yep. In Ranger school we were doing five mile runs in leather combat boots. It's a small wonder I can walk at all today.

I have had flying squadron mates who wore the same pair of leather flying boots through their entire 20+ year flying career because they didn't want to "break in" a new pair.

 

[machinistbutler]

My comments about "budgie" hunters, who proliferate in the Dangerous Game videos, reflects their lack of physical conditioning and personal discipline when they pursue big or dangerous game.....that wealthy or poor slob who doesn't take seriously his personal responsibility for his performance in hunting and his potential to take large and dangerous game humanely. Since I don't live in Africa I have to take advantage of the media, especially that which purports to promote the hunting of African game. 50 gallon pot bellies appear in almost all of the videos that I've watched. Deal with it.

I don't live in Africa either, but I went there to hunt and will again .

That is how I will form my opinions, not off youtube.

Go there and hunt, form your own opinions.

Deal with it, as you say.

Craig

 

[tn4lee]

That is not a very relevant example. Nowhere in Africa could a buffalo run far enough in the immediate aftermath of a shot to be considered "long range" for a 300 gr .375 or .400 gr .416. If the first shot is in the wrong place it doesn't matter what sort of wonder magnum a hunter might be using - everyone is in for an interesting time. Another little ballistics secret is that increased velocity does not necessarily increase penetration - particularly with a SP. J.A. Hunter (he didn't do any videos) thought the deepest penetrating bullet he had ever encountered was the 250 gr solid from a .318 Westley Richards (US .33 cal) moving along at a sedate 2400 fps. The Woodleigh SP does almost as well.

Hit a a buffalo in the right spot with a quality 300 gr SP at 2500 fps and he is dead. Period. That same 2500 fps gives the client a PBR beyond 200 meters which is 100 meters beyond any shot at a DG animal a client will be allowed to take and plenty for the vast majority of PG opportunities. The extra horsepower is irrelevant. It is particularly irrelevant if the bullet is in the wrong place.

Again, I am missing your point. I just looked at your profile. I assume at 77 you aren't blocking many linebackers these days. Neither am I. Balancing the effect of recoil isn't about whining or being tough, it is about using the most effective tool to take down a particular quarry. For hunting in Africa, at 2500 fps, velocity ceases to be a major concern while bullet quality, rifle ergonomics and transportability, and speed and accuracy of a second shot take on the greatest importance. None of those issues are mitigated by greater velocity or recoil.

At 77 years of age I have absolutely no reluctance to shoot a .460wm, .416wm, or .378wm. If I ever go on a DG hunt I expect that I will purchase a .416Wby....because I know my Weatherby rifles and I trust them. I took my bull elk last Nov with my .340 WM. I've had spinal surgery, both hips replaced and I have a stent in my Widowmaker, and now I'm ready to go!

 

[IvW]

 

[Wheels]

I had forgotten about this thread until I started getting likes on a post I made a couple years ago. I haven't read all the new posts and will go back when I get the chance.

Post war up through the 70's was a unique window in time. Everything was about setting records. Breaking the sound barrier, diving to the deepest part of the ocean, going into space, orbiting the earth, going to the moon, breaking speed records at Bonneville every other month with every type of contraption. Records were broken by companies with all the money speed could buy and then eclipsed by a shade tree mechanic and his buddies.

It was in this window that Roy Weatherby started his company and he rode the excitement for speed with the best of them. Some of his inventions were great. Some of his inventions may have provided a caliber for an animal that hadn't lived on the earth for millions of years. It was during this period that Weatherby made his name and in turn monetized his name.

I am old enough to remember adults that needed to own a Weatherby. Casual conversations among hunters always turned to Weatherby and the newest product. It is during this time my father could pick up British double rifles by filling a mans petro tank up. (there was no ammo available) An acquaintance bought a Holland & Holland 577 double for $100usd. He really didn't buy the rifle, he bought 40-50 rounds of ammo and the rifle was thrown in for free. His first elephant paid for the rifle and paid off his car.

This "speed" window has closed and a resurgence in the old was brought in. Old bolts and doubles by the gun houses of Great Britain and Germany are valued and have been for quite a while now. I have a feeling at some point the speed window will open once again and Roy Weatherby will be esteemed for his many accomplishments. Until then he provides a source of good debate.

 

[machinistbutler]

Part of the fun in planning a safari is buying a rifle and practicing with it. The members here will have some great suggestions on what bullet to use in the 416 if that is the route you choose.

At 77 years of age I have absolutely no reluctance to shoot a .460wm, .416wm, or .378wm. If I ever go on a DG hunt I expect that I will purchase a .416Wby....because I know my Weatherby rifles and I trust them. I took my bull elk last Nov with my .340 WM. I've had spinal surgery, both hips replaced and I have a stent in my Widowmaker, and now I'm ready to go!

 

[Red Leg]

I have had flying squadron mates who wore the same pair of leather flying boots through their entire 20+ year flying career because they didn't want to "break in" a new pair.

I would have assumed that they just didn't walk in them very much.

I have always thought had I not wanted to have a military career so badly that I also might have joined the air force or navy.

One good thing to emerge from two decades of Middle East conflict are quality boots that don't require polish. I was lucky to get two years out of a pair of Corcoran jump boots.

 

[tn4lee]

I would have assumed that they just didn't walk in them very much.

I have always thought had I not wanted to have a military career so badly that I also might have joined the air force or navy.

One good thing to emerge from two decades of Middle East conflict are quality boots that don't require polish. I was lucky to get two years out of a pair of Corcoran jump boots.

We didn't walk in them much because there's not a lot of room to walk in a fighter cockpit and they hurt and were slow to break in.....McNamara had decided to save a lot of money by buying cheap flying boots and that's what we got. A lot of us coughed up personal funds to buy Army Jump Boots because they were still made of quality leather and had good soles.

 

[Red Leg]

We didn't walk in them much because there's not a lot of room to walk in a fighter cockpit and they hurt and were slow to break in.....McNamara had decided to save a lot of money by buying cheap flying boots and that's what we got. A lot of us coughed up personal funds to buy Army Jump Boots because they were still made of quality leather and had good soles.

Old friend drove F4's out of Thailand back in those days. Glad to have you along on the forum.

 

[tn4lee]

Old friend drove F4's out of Thailand back in those days. Glad to have you along on the forum.

Old "Double Ugly" served us well.

 

[tn4lee]

I suspect I have heard and studied a lot more about the decision to move to the 5.56 than most. It had everything to do with basic load, the actual range in which firefights took place, and the realization that a wounded enemy was more often than not of greater utility than a dead one. And basic load not only meant the rifleman's own ammunition, but the extra mortar round or two and MG ammunition he could now carry. We estimated that switching to the 5.56 increased the combined firepower of an infantry platoon as much 300%. It is why every other major power in the world to include the Russians have done exactly the same thing. Pretty smart fellows those DOD guys weren't they? And yes, it is easier to train a new recruit on a lighter recoiling rifle - it doesn't introduce all that flinching nonsense that seems to effect all too many using too much gun.

USAF was the first service to buy the M-16, for the purpose of airfield defense. It made a lot of sense for that mission. I first fired one in 1964 while attending ROTC summer camp. USAF was collecting data on "first time" shooters and if there was ever a population of shooting neophytes, it was that group of urbanites in my class. One guy failed to qualify at 100 yards with it (hard to believe) so those of us on either side of him shot his target to get him a qualifying score. It was fun to shoot.

 

[Dr. Crack]

Gotta say this post is a humdinger...wow!.... Very entertaining. Never had a Weatherby, but I have a 505 Gibbs, 416 Ruger and Rigbys, 450/400 and such. Always was "curious" (378-460) about them, but not enough to pull the trigger at this point. If I were to, and took the above posts into consideration, it (Weatherby) would probably be a stay at home novelty gig.

 

[Dr. Crack]

I had forgotten about this thread until I started getting likes on a post I made a couple years ago. I haven't read all the new posts and will go back when I get the chance.

Post war up through the 70's was a unique window in time. Everything was about setting records. Breaking the sound barrier, diving to the deepest part of the ocean, going into space, orbiting the earth, going to the moon, breaking speed records at Bonneville every other month with every type of contraption. Records were broken by companies with all the money speed could buy and then eclipsed by a shade tree mechanic and his buddies.

It was in this window that Roy Weatherby started his company and he rode the excitement for speed with the best of them. Some of his inventions were great. Some of his inventions may have provided a caliber for an animal that hadn't lived on the earth for millions of years. It was during this period that Weatherby made his name and in turn monetized his name.

I am old enough to remember adults that needed to own a Weatherby. Casual conversations among hunters always turned to Weatherby and the newest product. It is during this time my father could pick up British double rifles by filling a mans petro tank up. (there was no ammo available) An acquaintance bought a Holland & Holland 577 double for $100usd. He really didn't buy the rifle, he bought 40-50 rounds of ammo and the rifle was thrown in for free. His first elephant paid for the rifle and paid off his car.

This "speed" window has closed and a resurgence in the old was brought in. Old bolts and doubles by the gun houses of Great Britain and Germany are valued and have been for quite a while now. I have a feeling at some point the speed window will open once again and Roy Weatherby will be esteemed for his many accomplishments. Until then he provides a source of good debate.

Great point... Like clothing goes in and out of style.

 

[Pheroze]

The 460 Weatherby is the parent case for the 465 H&H......maybe the child has followed his father's career path?

 

[Forrest Halley]

We didn't walk in them much because there's not a lot of room to walk in a fighter cockpit and they hurt and were slow to break in.....McNamara had decided to save a lot of money by buying cheap flying boots and that's what we got. A lot of us coughed up personal funds to buy Army Jump Boots because they were still made of quality leather and had good soles.

You'd think they'd make flying boots really comfortable to walk in because if something goes wrong, you're going to have to walk a long way.

 

[tn4lee]

You'd think they'd make flying boots really comfortable to walk in because if something goes wrong, you're going to have to walk a long way.

Not McNamara.

 

[Ray B]

I recall a time when the DemonRats were highly complimentary to walls along the border- they called it McNamara's Wall. It was to keep illegal aliens from the North out of the South- I guess when they're going from the South to the North, a reverse attitude is justified.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

Think about it. Weatherby is a high dollar product compared to many other brands--even considering a non-Weatherby cartridge in a Weatherby rifle.
Add to that is the fact that some Weatherby owners I have know are(Status, try to impress) type of people. Their hunting/shooting skills often are minimal.
Put another way --as my PH said---"There are born hunters and then there are money made hunters" The born hunters know their firearm/bow and (have practiced)know how to use it. They also know how to hunt and usually the tape measure is not the most important thing. They are enjoyable to be with and when things go wrong accept it as part of hunting.
I have personally run into hunters who show up with brand new camo, a new rifle and scope(usually expensive), looking for a record book or at least super bragging animal(usually want it tied to a tree close to camp and the truck) and then complain about everything but their poor shooting ability if (Actually when) they miss. After all they had the rifle bore-sighted at the gun shop

Born hunters can show up with a Weatherby and after proving themselves leave a good impression.

Money made hunters are not really hunters in my eyes and leave a bad taste(impression) with most people in camp. Especially when they are more concerned about drinking and bragging what a great person they are, a great hunter with mounts on their office walls, who they know, how much money they make and how they are better than most others. All ego and no skill.

All the above works against the Weatherby name plus the super shiny(no help when hunting) fancy stocks and such on many of their rifles. Working people often look at those rifles "look at me", show-off rifles and not "using tools"

All that said I have a 257W that I really like. It is the cheapest MK V they make with syn stock and not highly blued barrel/action. It is a "Hunting" and used by a "born Hunter" according to my PH and people who know me.

You should probably see a therapist.