Why didn't Germany or Continental Europe develop big bore cartridges like the British did?

[PerH]

But that is something different than if, for example, a company like Mauser had brought a rifle onto the German market with the caliber "10.57x73/ 10.75x73 Mauser" instead of .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery. But never mind. The Germans were vastly superior to the British when it came to repeating rifles and their calibers. While the British were unbeaten when it came to double-barreled rifles and their calibers, even though the competition from Germany, Belgium and Italy was already pretty strong at the time. You could also say that it was something like a civil arms race and, as in war, all means were permitted - on all sides

Barella msde double rifles in .404 Jeffery , at kleast one exist and it have no history of whom, what . Maybe owner had a .404 bolt also . Pictures online of it .

 

[PerH]

I almost forgot there were German rifles made in NE cartridges also , on GHG page there was about a Herman double rifle in .600 NE that went to Ondia together with its sibling , a single shot break action rifle same chambered .

I think since the British ammo in NE cartridges was made more easier to find around the world , it was cheaper to get some and build for one of them , then to develop something new .

 

[coreydb]

Yes I'm aware of the 500 Schuler but in general when you think big bore, dangerous game cartridges it's the British (and Americans) that come to mind. Sure Germany had the popular 9.3x62 but it's not quite in the same league as the following.

375 Holland and Holland
416 Rigby
450 NE
470 NE
500 NE
577 NE
505 Gibbs etc.

Was it because the British were more heavily invested in their colonial ventures throughout Africa and India?

Am I overlooking any big European thumpers that didn't originate in the UK?

 

[coreydb]

I know the British had the largest colonial presence on the African continent and as they expanded their presence, they needed guns to protect themselves from the large game they encountered, as well as to hunt them for food.

 

[PerH]

404 Jeffery, 404 Magnum Schüler, 416 WBY Magnum

• grand veneur
• Apr 22, 2020
• 8

The Schüler cartridge made with a 416 WBY brass after removing the belt. Interesting cartridge...

Did a little search and this came up, just a experiment it was , or didn’t go longer than that .

 

[grand veneur]

No one knows whether this cartridge was actually designed or was just a project. An original rifle for it was never found and cartridges never were found either. The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler was designed by Mr Ziegenhahn based on what he was able to find in Schüler's workshop after it was closed down by the GDR authorities.

The cartridge is only mentioned in the famous catalog page.

 

[John Telford]

But that is something different than if, for example, a company like Mauser had brought a rifle onto the German market with the caliber "10.57x73/ 10.75x73 Mauser" instead of .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery. But never mind. The Germans were vastly superior to the British when it came to repeating rifles and their calibers. While the British were unbeaten when it came to double-barreled rifles and their calibers, even though the competition from Germany, Belgium and Italy was already pretty strong at the time. You could also say that it was something like a civil arms race and, as in war, all means were permitted - on all sides

Jeffery never built his own rifles . He simply ordered the actioned barrels from Mauser and had the likes of Leonard finish them up. Similarly he borrowed many a caliber from the trade such as the .404 (10.75x73) and the .500 Schuler which was balistically ahead of its time. He just changed the neck angle due to feeding issues and renamed it the .500 Jeff.
The Germans most likely would have developed big bores but they ran out of time and colonies!

 

[John Telford]

No one knows whether this cartridge was actually designed or was just a project. An original rifle for it was never found and cartridges never were found either. The cartridge 404 Magnum Schüler was designed by Mr Ziegenhahn based on what he was able to find in Schüler's workshop after it was closed down by the GDR authorities.

The cartridge is only mentioned in the famous catalog page.

View attachment 653670

According to Casey Lewis there was one known rifle in .404 Schuler and he had a cartridge collector friend that paid 4000 DMarks in 1987 for an original cartridge.

 

[VertigoBE]

On a slight sidetrack, but does anyone know why the .500 Schüler/Jeffery was designed with rebated rim? Is it so difficult to put a magnum bolthead on the bolt of a standard mauser action?

 

[John Wasmuth]

On a slight sidetrack, but does anyone know why the .500 Schüler/Jeffery was designed with rebated rim? Is it so difficult to put a magnum bolthead on the bolt of a standard mauser action?

The 98 Mauser bolt is a one piece affair that is milled to accept whatever cartridge head is needed up to its size limitations. There is no separate “head”. The extractor is affixed to the bolt via a collar on the bolt. So it’s just a matter of milling the bolt face to accept the cartridge you want.

 

[mark-hunter]

does anyone know why the .500 Schüler/Jeffery was designed with rebated rim?

To fit standard mauser 98 action and bolt head. That would be my educated guess.
This is common reason for rebated rim cartridges.

 

[VertigoBE]

To fit standard mauser 98 action and bolt head. That would be my educated guess.
This is common reason for rebated rim cartridges.

So if on a standard action, the bolt head cannot be enlarged, this must be because the bolt itself on a standard action is smaller in diameter than on a magnum action? Meaning a magnum action is not only longer, it is also "larger"?

I've read about gunsmiths who would cut up two standard actions and solder them back together, in order to create a magnum action. This should not be possible if my first paragraph is correct.

 

[mark-hunter]

That sounds about right.
But for such rebated rim cartridge large casing, take a look at contemporary rifle capacity?
Probably two in magazine. The fat cartridge reduces magazine capacity.

Proper rifle magazine designed for double stacking, must be designed to stack cartridges in two stacks, in angle of 60 degrees on of top the next.
If this is not done, then space and capcity will be lost.

M98 action is the best action of all contemporary rifles of the era to make such gunsmithing like you mentioned (cutting the actions, etc). No other action was friendly for such work: like lee enfield or mosin nagan. As a result all others disappeared from sporting rifles history, except as occasional sporterized model here and there with same caliber, or re-barreled to caliber of same cartridge family.
M98 design, allowed many more further sporting developments including magnum size action

Speaking of action and sizes and magazine capacity:
In modern rifles:
My ZKK 602, 375 HH on magnum length action holds 6 rounds in magazine. (that is a jewel of factory rifles and design)
Rilfes Win m70 and zastava hold 3 rounds.

It gets even worse with some rifles: Bergara B14 in 375 H&H holds only two in magazine.
But for Bergara it is good at least that they have tried and managed to chamber this DG cartridge. 99% of other factories do not even bother with it. They in most cases stop with calibers at 300 win mag, and 9.3x62 because those fit perfectly in medium length action.
This leads to disappearance of some other calibers from market, such as 8x68, and others of 68 mm casing class.

 

[grand veneur]

The problem was always the bolt head of the Mauser 98 actions, which had to be enlarged by milling in all cases to fit bigger cartridges. The bolt of the Mauser Magnum action as such is not larger but is longer and so the entire action with magazine. The bolt head of the Mauser Magnum action was already enlarged in advance to accommodate in a first time the classic 416 Rigby cartridge. Nevertheless, the possibilities of enlarging the bolt head were limited so that one had to accept promises on the cartridges design, among other things the rebated rim. With cartridges like the 505 Gibbs there were additional problems. On some older rifles the head was completely grind down.

 

[Huvius]

The bolts in the standard large ring and magnum Mauser ‘98s are exactly the same diameter as are the receiver rings.
The magnum is simply 1/4” +/- longer than the standard length action so the bolt is as well.
I too was surprised to learn this but having both in hand to measure proved it.
The 404 Jeffery bolt face is opened up for the greater diameter rim.
I don’t think this is all that difficult to do on a lathe.

 

[John Wasmuth]

So if on a standard action, the bolt head cannot be enlarged, this must be because the bolt itself on a standard action is smaller in diameter than on a magnum action? Meaning a magnum action is not only longer, it is also "larger"?

I've read about gunsmiths who would cut up two standard actions and solder them back together, in order to create a magnum action. This should not be possible if my first paragraph is correct.

As far as I know both receivers are the same diameter but the “magnum” action is longer. I have a friend that accomplished the cut and joining the two receivers to make a magnum length receiver for a .375 H and H project. It came out nicely. I’m told it was done quite frequently but took a lot of work to accomplish it.

 

[grand veneur]

As far as Mauser actions are concerned, the receiver of the Mauser Magnum action is significantly longer and more massive than that of the classic Mauser 98 action. Only the bolt has the same diameter, but is also longer. I just compared a FN Mauser action with a classic Mauser Magnum action and a Brevex Magnum Mauser action. The difference is clear.

 

[mark-hunter]

There is also one more action size variety.
Mauser medium action size, depending on factory:
Mauser 98 has longer action by 1/4 inch then Yugo M48. (clone of mauser 98K)

I think that it comes from time when Zastava factory imported tools from FN factory in Belgium.
Thus, there is a possibility that also FN Mausers have shorter version of action. (?)

On FN size I may be wrong, but for sure Yugo shorter action is not the only shorter medium length action version in the world. Some other factories were doing the same.

On the other hand, Yugo rifle M70 for hunting, has proper length (longer) Mauser medium action, for which they manage to chamber 458 WM and 375 H&H.

 

[grand veneur]

The comparison continues.

I just compared the FN Mauser action with an unmodified classic Mauser 98 action. There are no size differences. The FN action is a civilian version without the thumb hole and without a device for quick reloading with the cartridges on a clip.

As far as the magazines are concerned, depending on how the actions were modified and which cartridge they were prepared for, there can be significant differences in length.

 

[BlueFlyer]

The 404 Jeffery bolt face is opened up for the greater diameter rim.

Just to throw in another curve ball. The Siamese Mauser has the same ring diameter and bolt diameter as the std large ring Mauser and same length as the Yugo.
I have 2 Siamese actions, 1 standard bolt face @ 0.555" and the other is opened out to 0.610" . Personally I would rather open the bolt face than have to deal with a rebated rim such as the 425WR.