Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[358 Norma]

I would think a Browning long action BLR could be made in the 416 Talor, 375 Ruger, or 416 Ruger.

 

[rookhawk]

I would think a Browning long action BLR could be made in the 416 Talor, 375 Ruger, or 416 Ruger.

In order of power to extract stuck cases, the order would go like this:

1.) Double rifle extractor
2.) CRF bolt gun
3.) PF bolt gun / lever gun
4.) Pump/Slide Action
5.) Semi-Auto

I think that answers the question above as to why certain calibers in certain actions weren't/aren't used. I certainly would want a very low pressure cartridge in a BLR, one lower than found in other actions.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I don't doubt the extractors failed but I dispute the conditions were part of it as same or worse here and no failures due to the conditions. Most likely the person has hot loaded the ammo or the factory ammo couldn't handle any heat. Result a stuck case, a Sako extractor would probably jump the extractor grove rim, same result. With Rem extractors it also depends on when they were made as Rem went through a few years where quality control did not seem to exist and if the latter ones you could carry a spare and just put it in yourself. I still wonder why Rem stayed with such a small extractor when going to larger diameter cases.

Re Sako extractors, the only reason they don't break is they are thicker than the Rem's but have the same griping area and will jump over a rim if extraction is tight. The Sako's or any extractor that is a rotating extractor will eventually wear through. Have read of Sako extractors doing this, very high volume usage I would expect. The M16 design is a far better extractor than the Sako IMHO.

Update:

The .416 Remington Magnum was loaded with Barnes TSX 400Gr factory loads when it failed.

The 7mm Remington Magnum was loaded with Federal Power Shok 175Gr factory loads when it failed. But it had been previously given 25 years of regular service before the extractor broke.

My current dangerous game rifle is a Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. I had McBride's Gun Works fit an M16 extractor to the rifle for more reliable extraction.

I agree with your sentiments about the Remington Model 700 factory extractor being too small. That (and Remington's unsafe factory trigger mechanism) is an example of how Remington prioritized cost cutting measures over making a more reliable product. Nevertheless, the things are damned accurate which is why I continue to use (a highly modified) one.

 

[Sideshow]

Maybe this has been brought up somewhere else...

I have hunting shows on TV this afternoon, while working on rifles. It's raining hard and seems like a good "work on guns" day.

There is a show I am not familiar with on The Sportsman Channel - Gateway to Africa. One of the PHs, Francois Nels, had a Marlin .45-70 on the table in front of him while he was talking, and there was footage of him hiking and talking, carrying the same rifle.

How’s the BLR .416 conversion going?
Really interested to see your results.
Cheers
SS

 

[Sideshow]

In order of power to extract stuck cases, the order would go like this:

1.) Double rifle extractor
2.) CRF bolt gun
3.) PF bolt gun / lever gun
4.) Pump/Slide Action
5.) Semi-Auto

I think that answers the question above as to why certain calibers in certain actions weren't/aren't used. I certainly would want a very low pressure cartridge in a BLR, one lower than found in other actions.

Hey @rookhawk would you mind going into more detail please on your last sentence about low pressure with the BLR.
Cheers
SS

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think Rem model 700 and the Win model 70 push feed year models. are more accurate is partially due to slightly faster trigger lock times of the push feed design. Every millisecond that lock is in motion degrades accuracy.

 

[Zinz]

Moving away from buffalo and the bigger DG, I don't see any discussion in this thread about using a lever gun following up wounded leopard or lion. Seems to me a stout lever gun would fit nicely in that role. Teddy did say that his 1895 .405W was "lion medicine" and these cats are squarely in the Dangerous Game category. There has always been strong opinions about using a shotgun for leopard follow up, seems to me that a short lever gun throwing heavy soft points would be ideal in thick jess.

I suppose a professional doesn't necessarily have a choice of carrying a "golf bag of guns" to choose from for each game species, but it is not uncommon for a cat specialist to have a particular gun for following a wounded cat.

Ed Z

 

[rookhawk]

Hey @rookhawk would you mind going into more detail please on your last sentence about low pressure with the BLR.
Cheers
SS

When we think of why the double rifle (with a rimmed cartridge) and the mauser CRF actions excel, it’s because of their ability to get out a stuck case with the highest probability.

The other action types continue to have lesser and lesser ability to yank out a stuck case that is more likely to occur in tropical conditions. But not all gigantic rifles calibers are created equally so picking the right cartridge is risk mitigation in itself. For example as an extreme example, the 500Jeff has lower pressure than the 505Gibbs, yet both are true “stopper class” calibers. A 404J or 450-400 3” are both pretty mild calibers for what they accomplish, so those two are going to likely be “extractable” in an odd-ball action that has less extractor strength.

I’m not endorsing any of these ideas, it’s not my cup of tea whatsoever, I’m just passing on the consideration that the action choices are inferior to the common champions of the safari world. In light of that, choose wisely on what caliber of cartridge you try to mate to the concept of a push feed, semi auto, or lever gun.

I’m not a barrel builder whatsoever, but I know chrome lined barrels exist. I wonder if that includes the chamber? Boy, that would help keep it slick and to avoid festering corrosion that would be more likely to result in a stuck case.

 

[rookhawk]

Moving away from buffalo and the bigger DG, I don't see any discussion in this thread about using a lever gun following up wounded leopard or lion. Seems to me a stout lever gun would fit nicely in that role. Teddy did say that his 1895 .405W was "lion medicine" and these cats are squarely in the Dangerous Game category. There has always been strong opinions about using a shotgun for leopard follow up, seems to me that a short lever gun throwing heavy soft points would be ideal in thick jess.

I suppose a professional doesn't necessarily have a choice of carrying a "golf bag of guns" to choose from for each game species, but it is not uncommon for a cat specialist to have a particular gun for following a wounded cat.

Ed Z

Teddy was an astute military/munitions mind and I don’t doubt his advice was valid when he penned it. There was another 30 years of pathetically unreliable safari ammunition coming down the pike and some of the very best actions were not yet commonplace.

That being said, if Mr. Roosevelt was going to Africa in 2024 rather than and the turn of the 20th century, he wouldn’t select the same things today. If money was no object, he’d have a $500,000 Fuchs double bolt gun, if money was an object he’d probably have a heym double rifle and a custom magnum mauser (Dakota, Vektor, Granite Mountain, Reimer Johannsen, Prechtl, etc.)

You have to remember that they wounded and lost an obscene amount of game on that expedition because his “big stick” was the best he could acquire and that was not sufficient for the tasks or shooting distances. He also had an army of porters, trackers, and scouts to go chase after wounded game that we don’t have today.

 

[Rule 303]

Update:

The .416 Remington Magnum was loaded with Barnes TSX 400Gr factory loads when it failed.

The 7mm Remington Magnum was loaded with Federal Power Shok 175Gr factory loads when it failed. But it had been previously given 25 years of regular service before the extractor broke.

My current dangerous game rifle is a Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. I had McBride's Gun Works fit an M16 extractor to the rifle for more reliable extraction.

I agree with your sentiments about the Remington Model 700 factory extractor being too small. That (and Remington's unsafe factory trigger mechanism) is an example of how Remington prioritized cost cutting measures over making a more reliable product. Nevertheless, the things are damned accurate which is why I continue to use (a highly modified) one.

As an aside, I had two Rem 788's that had broken/cracked C clip part of the extractors. They held their place and still extracted but if you didn't work the bolt hard the empty just fell on top of the magazine.
I think you did the right thing going with the M16 extractor.

 

[TroutCreekCamp]

I know this thread is over a year old, but it was full of information and a great read.

Interesting thread. What about a 45-70? Anyone ever use it in Africa? My go to are 1903-06 and CZ550 American .375. Hendershott ammo barnes TSX.

 

[HankBuck]

Teddy was an astute military/munitions mind and I don’t doubt his advice was valid when he penned it. There was another 30 years of pathetically unreliable safari ammunition coming down the pike and some of the very best actions were not yet commonplace.

That being said, if Mr. Roosevelt was going to Africa in 2024 rather than and the turn of the 20th century, he wouldn’t select the same things today. If money was no object, he’d have a $500,000 Fuchs double bolt gun, if money was an object he’d probably have a heym double rifle and a custom magnum mauser (Dakota, Vektor, Granite Mountain, Reimer Johannsen, Prechtl, etc.)

You have to remember that they wounded and lost an obscene amount of game on that expedition because his “big stick” was the best he could acquire and that was not sufficient for the tasks or shooting distances. He also had an army of porters, trackers, and scouts to go chase after wounded game that we don’t have today.

@rookhawk - Teddy also admitted many times he was a “poor to average” shot and that would also contribute to much wounded game.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk - Teddy also admitted many times he was a “poor to average” shot and that would also contribute to much wounded game.

Aren't we all? Only sport where people that are really into it consider themselves all below average when the chips are down.

 

[Zinz]

That being said, if Mr. Roosevelt was going to Africa in 2024 rather than and the turn of the 20th century, he wouldn’t select the same things today. If money was no object, he’d have a $500,000 Fuchs double bolt gun, if money was an object he’d probably have a heym double rifle and a custom magnum mauser (Dakota, Vektor, Granite Mountain, Reimer Johannsen, Prechtl, etc.)

I suppose my comments are geared to if a PH would consider one for leopard follow up using a modern lever gun of heavy caliber and modern bullets. Seems that having 4-5 rounds of stout ammo in a quick reloading firearm would be a good choice.

 

[rookhawk]

I suppose my comments are geared to if a PH would consider one for leopard follow up using a modern lever gun of heavy caliber and modern bullets. Seems that having 4-5 rounds of stout ammo in a quick reloading firearm would be a good choice.

You'll never get off more than two shots on a charging leopard in any regard. Double rifle is the fastest to shoot two of course.

There was an old school leopard PH that used an SKS with bayonet fixed. Using 7.62x39 FMJ's he thought the semi auto might get a third shot off and if he ran out of luck the cat may skewer itself.

 

[TTundra]

You'll never get off more than two shots on a charging leopard in any regard. Double rifle is the fastest to shoot two of course.

There was an old school leopard PH that used an SKS with bayonet fixed. Using 7.62x39 FMJ's he thought the semi auto might get a third shot off and if he ran out of luck the cat may skewer itself.

Wouldn't that be something to add to a hunt. Hearing a PH say "Fix bayonets"...certainly would be a story at least.

Reminds me of my father telling us one of his stories where he was given the command to fix bayonets in his first tour in Vietnam. Oh the feeling hearing those two words can convey...

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’m not a barrel builder whatsoever, but I know chrome lined barrels exist. I wonder if that includes the chamber? Boy, that would help keep it slick and to avoid festering corrosion that would be more likely to result in a stuck case.

I love chrome lined barrels! The chamber is lined too. You can see a grey ring on either end of the barrel. They clean so easy, are extremely corrosion proof, and it extends the life. I wish all my barrels were chrome lined.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

How’s the BLR .416 conversion going?
Really interested to see your results.
Cheers
SS

I haven't followed this thread in a while. Did I say something about a BLR .416? I don't remember, but I like the idea. Actually, in recent months, I have wondered about other big bore conversions, such as a .50 Alaskan.

I know I am repeating myself, from probably here and other threads, but I absolutely think levers can be good for anything on the planet - with accepted conditions. Right bullet, sensible range, a lotta practice, shot placement, and a large enough caliber. Every single way we hunt has some level of limitations to it, eventually: trad archery, high tech compounds, trad blackpowder, modern inlines, handguns, different centerfires. And yes, me with my adoration of lever actions. But I also believe it's OK to consider the boundaries, as long as your sensible and don't do anything stupid. For example, my two buffalo hunts. I was told it would not be beyond 75 yards. (both were actually 40 yards) I worked with my PH in developing a load with a bullet he felt good about. And I practiced, diligently. Result? Two shots, two dead buffalo.

Lever actions for dangerous game? I'm in the "yes" column, done sensibly.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Interesting thread. What about a 45-70? Anyone ever use it in Africa? My go to are 1903-06 and CZ550 American .375. Hendershott ammo barnes TSX.

Yes. I have. The stories are on here somewhere. Two mature cow buffalo (1300 pounds each), 2 shots, dead in ten(ish) seconds. Handloads with 325 grain brass solids. Rifle is a Remington made Marlin GBL. I also have killed zebra, black wildebeest, and a warthog with it.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Why is there no speaking softly and carrying a big stick chambered in 470 NE?

I was pondering guns I could have in classic cartridges (mostly rimmed), without double gun money, and it struck me. How is it that neither Winchester nor Marlin created a lever gun in a low pressure, high performance safari cartridge that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week? Your second shot would be slower than a double but arguably faster than a bolt and the double guys don't have two or three more after that for a charging animal.

Why not? Are you all hat and no Kudu?

I think it's pretty obvious that Winchester and Marlin never made a lever action in a heavy, dangerous game cartridge is because there would be no market for such a rifle. Although some lever actions are found in Africa, they are seldom seen in the field. Americans and Europeans traveling to Africa prefer bolt actions, double rifles or single shots.

I asked a PH about this once. He told me that he had owned one once, but it just didn't "fit" in African hunting and he sold it.