Wiener Schnappenmontage Bases Wanted

[Rickvzg]

Hi
I’ve had a Reichert scope with Weiner Schnappenmontage mounts in it for many years and hope to find the rife bases so I can put it on a vintage MS or Styer rifle. Anyone have a set ?

 

[Red Leg]

If you are in the States, contact JJ Perodeau. He could offer suggestions. Though I don't believe that I would try to actually use that scope. You are looking a fairly extensive and expensive, highly specialized gunsmithing to fit a set of claw bases that could be made to work. Even if by some miracle you found the original model, they still would have to be fitted to the rifle, and then the scope individually fitted to those bases. After that significant investment, you would still have a scope, and thus a rifle, of very questionable utility. To be blunt, you are contemplating $1200 - $1800 dollars worth of work to mount a $30 scope.

If I was going to spend that kind of money, I would have JJ fit a set of claw bases designed for the rifle, and fit a set of rings that would hold a late 20th century S&B scope. It would have the same vintage look, but would also have great utility in the field.

JJ Perodeau Gunmaker

 

[rookhawk]

If you are in the States, contact JJ Perodeau. He could offer suggestions. Though I don't believe that I would try to actually use that scope. You are looking a fairly extensive and expensive, highly specialized gunsmithing to fit a set of claw bases that could be made to work. Even if by some miracle you found the original model, they still would have to be fitted to the rifle, and then the scope individually fitted to those bases. After that significant investment, you would still have a scope, and thus a rifle, of very questionable utility. To be blunt, you are contemplating $1200 - $1800 dollars worth of work to mount a $30 scope.

If I was going to spend that kind of money, I would have JJ fit a set of claw bases designed for the rifle, and fit a set of rings that would hold a late 20th century S&B scope. It would have the same vintage look, but would also have great utility in the field.

JJ Perodeau Gunmaker

I agree with everything @Red Leg said in this post but I think his work estimate is too conservative by perhaps a $1000 and I'd add the 12 month wait you'll endure trying to get this all worked out.

If you're trying to get utility out of the scope, sell it on ebay, some collector might buy it for too much with confused aspirations of getting it on a rifle again. It could sell for anywhere between $1 and $600 depending on the enthusiasm for an odd "pre war sniper looking" optic.

If you indeed have a Mannlicher Schoenauer that needs scope mounts, the turn-key solution is to call Mark at New England Custom Gun. For under $600 you can get EAW pivot mounts, bases and rings, for use with your Mannlicher 1903 through Mannlicher 1952. If you want Mannlicher Claw mounts installed on a Mannlicher, you're looking at $2500 plus optic.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Wait, just the bases? On a Mannlicher Schönauer, it would be one base, the one in front. In the rear, you only need to drill/tap for one screw, if the rifle you find doesn't already have it. Pre-war/Post war will make a difference here. The Post War models tended to have two screws in back, the pre-war only one. The scope you have is set up for one.

Up front, there were several different ways. I'd need a better pic to see if you need a piece dovetailed into the receiver, or some different set up.

I wouldn't dovetail into the receiver.

I did have recent success with my M1910. It had no scope, I have old eyes. I found a Zeiss that had such a mount, but it did not fit the rifle correctly. A previous owner had a ring soldered not on the receiver, but on the barrel in front of the receiver. Re-soldering the mount on the scope was not feasible.

My smith was able to fabricate a mount that grabbed the dovetail on the barrel, and reach back to the mount on the scope. It works. Are there better solutions? Yes. But this one looks period correct. Not perfect, but not a new 30mm tube scope, and somewhat respectful of a rifle made in 1910.

I did mention it was not inexpensive, right? I'm not sure the cost, because the smith also fabricated a double set trigger for it, and the total price included the two. But I could have probably bought a really nice new rifle for what I paid.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Yeah, I was thinking this thread was worthless without pictures, too:
This is the front mount of which I was speaking:

Ignore the thumbprints. The "band" that has the serial number on it came with the rifle, and it had a dovetail slot in it. The action itself was untouched. The smith made a mount that was inset into the dovetail, and is adjustable for windage via that screw. Going back, he mounted a tab for the mount to latch on to.

Here you can see the single screw in back. The "hook" grabs the screw, then you rotate down and clasp the front, et Voilà!

The scope is high enough that the iron sites are still useable. and if you take it off, you can use the Lyman 36. Would I like a nicer set up? Yes, I would. But any modern scope would look all out of place. We considered re-soldering the rear mount, but that would have moved the whole scope forward and would not have worked with the eye relief. I'm willing to try something else, but not on this particular rifle. I am considering having a new rifle made... just not sure on the scope yet. Probably the EAWs, with a Swarovski Z8, but low power. Think driven hunt scope. We'll see.

 

[Muskox]

I went through the German jagdschein course in 2017. Many times during the course they said that if you bought a rifle with claw mounts on it, and the scope didn't work to throw away the rifle and buy another one. They wanted to pound it into our head that in many cases no amount of money could get a rifle with screwed up mounts working.

Ernst Appel (trading as EAW mounts) might (but very doubtfully) make a scope mount for this system.

MAK more than likely doesn't make one.

Triebel www.triebel.de is a gunsmithing supply business in Berlin, talk to Maryanne, she might have an idea.

Johannsen is another German gunsmithing company.

For both if the link doesn't work google Johannsen buchsenmacherei

Unless there is a simple solution (highly bloody unlikely) through MAK, EAW or another company the cost will be $2000-3000.

You should also talk to New England Custom Guns about this. They are the EAW importer, and might have an idea.

Your solution will not be; 1. cheap or 2. easy.

 

[rookhawk]

Cheapest route of modern production and good quality:

$626

EAW pivot mounts.

Pros: May be plug and play if you already have correctly spaced screw holes. If not, 4 holes drilled and tapped and you’re done.

Cons: They are pre-made to clear the flag safety of the MS. Thus, they are higher mounts than optimal. Recoil is amplified because your cheek isn’t on the comb fully. Additional con, on some the front mount block obstructs the iron sight picture, thus necessitating taller front and rear iron sights if you wish to retain them.

EAW Pivot Mount for Mannlicher Schoenauer with 30mm Ring - E-500-05034, Specialized Mounting Solutions | New England Custom Gun Service, Ltd.

 

[rookhawk]

Moving up to more complicated and more expensive. EAW German claw mounts for the MS.

Total cost of about $1200.

Pros: Custom install means you can get a custom low safety built and then the custom scope mounts can sit low. The claw mount is an exceptionally reliable system. They can be machined to easily clear the iron sights. They are a traditional design for a vintage gun.

Cons: You must be very selective finding an optic that will work with the mounts. Usually you must send a blank check and have the installer select a quality optic that will work correctly. Dreams of reusing some scope you already own are quickly smashed upon the rocks.

Mannlicher-Schoenauer Rear Claw Base : 34-00034, German Claw Mount | New England Custom Gun Service, Ltd.

 

[rookhawk]

Last option is the Austrian style that Redleg mentioned early in this post and the example photos provided later by @SaintPanzer . That’s the $2500-$3500 and a trip to Ferlach, Austria sort of price tag, not counting price of optic.

One further option that is the most crude but still wholly acceptable is to find a set of vintage Redfield Mannlicher Schoenauer fixed rings in 1” on eBay. They go for $250-$400.

 

[Muskox]

Those mounts are most likely soldered on.

Removing the solder, would be the easiest way to mount it to a rifle.

The problem is that they are not going to attach to anything EAW makes.

 

[Muskox]

Then use whatever diameter rings these are. I am assuming these are 26mm (which is not 1 inch).

 

[SaintPanzer]

I went through the German jagdschein course in 2017.

Where? 2017 is when I took my course in Stuttgart.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I think we may be confusing the situation here... or I may be confused, which is likely.

EAW mounts, etc. will work to mount a scope to a Mannlicher Schönauer. They are not inexpensive, but can be used to mount a modern scope on a decidedly not modern rifle.

In this case, if I understood properly, we have a scope in search of a rifle. This is a different matter entirely. EAW will NOT help you here.

There are really no "rifle bases" for the Vienna mount. As I said (and showed), the "rear mount" is simply a drilled and tapped screw.

The front mount is some sort of "catch", hand milled, and mounted on the rifle. It can take many forms, and is always hand made. Do NOT use the method where a groove is placed in the receiver and then a piece is driven in. That is unkind to an old rifle. If you find one like that, we can advise, but don't do it.

Soldering a ring to the receiver or barrel and clipping in there is much kinder. Don't do this:

Do this:

 

[SaintPanzer]

Oh, here's a piece from my archives that shows all the pieces/parts of a Viennese Snap Mount:

 

[rookhawk]

@SaintPanzer Thank you for the pictures and illustrations. Really, really valuable information.

When did Schnappenmontage mounts become obsolete in Austria? Meaning, are you likely to see these mounts on a modern 21st century optic if you order a best grade ferlach kipplauff?

 

[Muskox]

Where? 2017 is when I took my course in Stuttgart.

Kaiserslautern, I was at Rhein Ordnance Barracks as a civil servant.

 

[Muskox]

@SaintPanzer Thank you for the pictures and illustrations. Really, really valuable information.

When did Schnappenmontage mounts become obsolete in Austria? Meaning, are you likely to see these mounts on a modern 21st century optic if you order a best grade ferlach kipplauff?

No, most modern Ferlach, Suhl, Isny or anywhere else custom rifles are made in Europe on the continent will either use a EAW "swing mount", or something from someone similar the afore mentioned MAK, Dentler or someone else. Or in the case of Blaser a saddle mount.

Otto Prinz is a maker that his own system.

 

[SaintPanzer]

@SaintPanzer Thank you for the pictures and illustrations. Really, really valuable information.

When did Schnappenmontage mounts become obsolete in Austria? Meaning, are you likely to see these mounts on a modern 21st century optic if you order a best grade ferlach kipplauff?

From what I can tell, they were a pre-war thing. They don't really hold zero as well as more modern mounts, and there's no real reason to use them now. Given the choice, I'd go with Dentler. The split bridge of the Mannlicher makes the EAW a much better solution.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Kaiserslautern, I was at Rhein Ordnance Barracks as a civil servant.

OK... we did not have that conversation here. You can find scopes with claw mounts, and you can find mounts on a rifle with no scope. You can fix either, but there are now better solutions (i.e. Dentler). I wouldn't hesitate, especially if the scope came with the rifle.

The Mannlicher Schönauer is a "special case". The split bridge receiver brings with it some mounting challenges. EAW is a good solution for that, but yes, it's a bit more complex than drilling and tapping weaver mounts, and good work is not inexpensive.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Oh, btw, that "special mount" I started with was by Torsten Retz at Retz & Sohn in Suhl (http://www.retzandson.com). In that case, I found the scope with mounts on it on eGun, and bought that. The reason I "had to have that scope" was that it was also marked as being made at Johann Springer Erben in Vienna.

It was a geek thing to do... but it is an old Mannlicher, so...

I've also had a scope with Viennese mounts added to an M1903. That was a different case entirely, as I had the rifle, but no scope, and it had a piece inserted in the receiver. Removing that would have weakened the rifle, so I started looking for old mounts that could be re-used. I had the work done by Lee Lebas at Le-Arms (http://learmsllc.com). He found an older Kahles in great shape, hand-matched old mounts to the piece on the rifle, re-soldered and then re-blued the whole set up.