45-70 for dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

@michael458 ... Thank you for the kind words. Terminals... The zebra was shot broadside at 50 yards after a long belly crawl stalk through some really freaking thorny stuff. Frankly, I think my PH wanted to see what my gun and bullet would do before moving on to buffalo. At that range, I doubt the bullet even slowed down going through. Tongue in cheek, mostly, it's possible the zebra hit the ground before the bullet finally did. It was impressive. It was fast. The buffalo... 45 yards, frontal shot. She was facing us, and she wasn't happy. Honestly, I had some concerns about a frontal shot but my PH felt confident and told me to take it, so I did. She traveled about 20 yards before keeling over and letting out a death bellow. She was dead well before we got to her. I was super impressed. The bullet did not exit, but time did not allow the opportunity to look for the bullet. She was a mature cow that my PH estimated at 1300 pounds. I was very happy with the performance in both cases. I would certainly use Cutting Edge bullets again, and have considered trying them in a couple of other rifles.

 

[C.W. Richter]

They were hell on thin-skinned Bovidae Bison bison. LOL Any cartridge feating the abbrev "Gov't." on the headstamp should speak fully of its limitations. Read Kevin Robertson's "Africa's Most Dangerous" and all of your burning questions will be properly snuffed out. It's been done. Not advisable. Any issues the 458 WM has will only be magnified using the even punier (non-cape) buffalo pounder. A friend uses one on 50 yd or less shots on big black bear in wooded swamps (and occasionally deer at the same time) and that's a fine use of the round! Likely same on Moose in similar habitat. IF you were dead set on using the 45-70 in Africa, I'd suggest using a PH that specializes in closer-range archery setups (i.e. hides over water holes, etc.) on PG, and you'll have an enjoyable time! (and when that gun is sleeping, break out your 'spanking-new .458 Lott and go hunt some DG!) The .458 slugs that have the best SD (penetration potential) are in the 450-500ish gr range. Don't use the 350s on anything dangerous and/or large.

 

[curtism1234]

I think the downside of a 45-70 is you only get velocity with a lighter and low SD bullet. With a heavier bullet things are slower so theoretically there is less shock. The critter wi die but maybe not DRT.

For some reason the DRT factor is in favor of large diameter, heavy, slow bullets imo. My 50cal muzzleloader with 90gr of powder and a big heavy bullet probably only dumps 1500-1800ftlbs of energy at 50 yards, but it will drop a deer faster than my 308 with 1000 additional ftlbs. Now it won't be near as violent of a DRT as it would be 7mag, but they just tend to collapse straight down

 

[michael458]

Don't use the 350s on anything dangerous and/or large.

Hmmmm......... I guess I will have to tell my Son that the elephant he shot with a 475 B&M Super Short and 350 gr .474 caliber #13 Solid did not work, even though it passed completely through the head on a side brain shot and that has less SD than the .458 version....... and also the buffalo and hippo he shot with the same........... ridiculous.......... One should really bone up on bullet tech a little before making some statements........

She traveled about 20 yards before keeling over and letting out a death bellow. She was dead well before we got to her. I was super impressed.

Excellent job Tundra.......... I would bet that bullet would have been far side of the stomach, or maybe caught up in the stomach.... I had a 420 Raptor base that went all the way through the stomach of a frontal shot cow, it was full of grass as well....... found just on the other side...... after ripping a fist size hole in the heart............ Again, you picked a professional bullet for the cartridge you chose... Well done.... Amateurs make these statements "What Cartridge is best for _________?" "What Rifle is Best for __________?"

A Professional will ask himself "What Bullet is Best For ___________?" His Rifle and Cartridge is already in hand..........

 

[C.W. Richter]

Hmmmm......... I guess I will have to tell my Son that the elephant he shot with a 475 B&M Super Short and 350 gr .474 caliber #13 Solid did not work, even though it passed completely through the head on a side brain shot and that has less SD than the .458 version....... and also the buffalo and hippo he shot with the same........... ridiculous.......... One should really bone up on bullet tech a little before making some statements........



Excellent job Tundra.......... I would bet that bullet would have been far side of the stomach, or maybe caught up in the stomach.... I had a 420 Raptor base that went all the way through the stomach of a frontal shot cow, it was full of grass as well....... found just on the other side...... after ripping a fist size hole in the heart............ Again, you picked a professional bullet for the cartridge you chose... Well done.... Amateurs make these statements "What Cartridge is best for _________?" "What Rifle is Best for __________?"

A Professional will ask himself "What Bullet is Best For ___________?" His Rifle and Cartridge is already in hand..........

I was referring to softs and didn't realize we were specifically discussing 45-70 on elephant. ? But, we've morphed to .474 too! <didn't get the memo> I was just reading about China blowing up it's space junk (from 1 piece into 1,000s,) using ICBMs. Shall I post? Don't take my word for it (my handle isn't caliber-specific,) that's why I reference Kevin Robertson's wisdom (books) where applicable (and that includes .458 WM-had one. Traded "up" to .416!)

 

[ldmay375]

View attachment 455274View attachment 455275View attachment 455276

From what I have read, test media results, and big animal results as to pictures and reports; that .458 / 325 grain BBW #13 is damn impressive whether launched with 45-70 or 458 Lott velocities. It penetrates Way beyond conventional expectations of bullet weight.
The NF Cup Point Expanding Solids are an ingenious design in my opinion.

 

[michael458]

I was just reading about China blowing up it's space junk (from 1 piece into 1,000s,) using ICBMs. Shall I post?

Why not....... just as relevant as the rest of your post...........its a 45/70 thread, and you bring in 458 Lott to the topic, and then bring SD of 450-500 gr bullets

 

[michael458]

From what I have read, test media results, and big animal results as to pictures and reports; that .458 / 325 grain BBW #13 is damn impressive whether launched with 45-70 or 458 Lott velocities. It penetrates Way beyond conventional expectations of bullet weight.
The NF Cup Point Expanding Solids are an ingenious design in my opinion.

You know for a chap that goes around with "3 7 5" behind his name, you are pretty sharp........You should reconsider that, maybe add something useful... I know, something like "4 5 8" or such..........

 

[C.W. Richter]

Why not....... just as relevant as the rest of your post...........its a 45/70 thread, and you bring in 458 Lott to the topic, and then bring SD of 450-500 gr bullets

Have you read all of Kevin Robertson's books?? That which you bring up are his suggested alternatives to what's posted here. Of course there can be exceptions, but his prose is accurate based upon repeated performance in the field. I too faced limitations with my prior .458 Win Mag (posted to suggest, as a poster above mentioned first, that the larger case relative to 4570 has issues itself for African DG,) thus the Professionals suggest the 458 Lott in this caliber. That is all. All .458 bullets in the same weight have the same SD, no matter what cartridge they're fired from (so SD of a bullet is applicable to 4570 too. That said, it needs all the V it can get, so to achieve that you must select subpar SDs.) You had better make those 4570 shots count, as other people's lives may depend upon it! 'Have your spear ready for backup, or at least one of the retro Mad Max spiked stocks you can perform the coup-de-gras with!!

 

[ldmay375]

With all the respect for Kevin Robertson, current bullet design and construction has pole vaulted ahead of sectional density as a performance indicator.

Sectional density may still have validity between bullets of the same design and construction fired from the same cartridge. Former standard design, construction, and consistent performance has been has surpassed significantly within the past 10-15 years.

As to the 45-70 use, each to his own. But, that flat nose brass CEB definitely penetrates at 45-70 velocity, and much higher velocity.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@michael458 ... I appreciate the kind words, but I'm no professional for sure. With regards to Africa, still very much a rookie. But I will say this: online research + forums/experienced folks like on here + having serious conversations ahead of the time with the PH + proper load testing... well, all of that sure can help greatly narrow the margin for error, IHMO. Maybe I got lucky? Perhaps. But I'd not hesitate to use my GBL and that load on buffalo again.

 

[michael458]

Have you read all of Kevin Robertson's books??

CW I can tell you this, and its a fact........ I like Kevin, but his experience with todays Bullet TechnoIogy is, or was limited. Kevin still adheres to more Conventional Wisdom the last I had seen some years ago, which is becoming dated. I know everything that Kevin Knows. But Kevin probably does NOT KNOW what I know............. Kevin is a very good chap, I spoke with him a few years ago, and he was almost about to get it with some Solid Technology, but was not quite there yet, he was still dependent upon SD, which of course we know of the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration that SD is the last factor of any concerns, at #8. I am not sure where Kevin is these days on his bullet tech. He may have learned something since I have had any contact with him.

. I too faced limitations with my prior .458 Win Mag (posted to suggest, as a poster above mentioned first, that the larger case relative to 4570 has issues itself for African DG,) thus the Professionals suggest the 458 Lott in this caliber.

The Limitation you face is of your own Making......... and listening to the so called professionals. In the case of your 458 Winchester, you really missed out, as the 458 Winchester with proper choice in bullets will do anything that you could ever ask of it. You do not require a 458 Lott for anything. You need to make the right choices in bullet tech.........

CW, thank you for your participation........... Continue to learn, but learn where to continue...........

 

[michael458]

but I'm no professional for sure.

What I am talking about, you went to Africa with 45/70, and you were smart enough, professional enough to know its limitations, and professional enough to make the right choices in bullets for the mission at hand, in which in all cases you were successful in your endeavors........ As we see, not everyone can or is willing to do that whether it is 45/70 or 458 Winchester or what have you........ Therefore, I Salute you Sir, again Well done on all counts.

 

[crs]

Michael 458,
Thank you for your informed posts and the years of experience and research behind them.
Keep up the good work. We all benefit from it.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I don't push that bullet that hard in my .458 Lott at 9½ lbs. Congratulations you have survived some serious recoil in a #1. I can only imagine what it would do up against the Lott with my full power loads. Not fun I'm guessing. What was the load, if you don't mind?

That was a long time ago. I’ll look back in my load notes. If it was near the max I’ll give powder but not how much.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I know they are not apples to apples. But my thinking is what you lack in one area (fps) you make up in another (energy). 45-70 is usually loaded light. Hornady only makes dangerous game bullets .458 @ 500gr. If you propel that at 2000 fps+....that's arround 4400 ft lbs of energy. That is more equal. I didn't explain myself well enough. I am not a reloader so this may not even be possible!. I read in another forum of 2200 fps and a 500 gr bullet from a 45-70. That's equal to 5400 ft lbs. That will kill your shoulder as well as a buffalo. Again this could all be fantasy because I don't know how true or even if that is possible?

Ruger cartridges and their owners are so very desperate to prove their worth. Smaller but better. Shorter but as good. If we weren't so interested in shorter actions for the economy of production, there would be little following. I like a big rifle for a big cartridge.

That was a long time ago. I’ll look back in my load notes. If it was near the max I’ll give powder but not how much.

Well then I guess I could figure it out if I were so adventurous...I have an Encore and a taste for punishment, but it seems so very unnecessary with such other powerful options as the .375 of .458 available.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Ruger cartridges and their owners are so very desperate to prove their worth. Smaller but better. Shorter but as good. If we weren't so interested in shorter actions for the economy of production, there would be little following. I like a big rifle for a big cartridge.

Well then I guess I could figure it out if I were so adventurous...I have an Encore and a taste for punishment, but it seems so very unnecessary with such other powerful options as the .375 of .458 available.

Actually I abandoned that load, it destroyed the reticule in my Redfield scope. It was powerful & accurate though.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Actually I abandoned that load, it destroyed the reticule in my Redfield scope. It was powerful & accurate though.

My .485 Lott remains an open sight proposition due to its recoil. I think that the Leupold Ultralight 2.5x would work well on it, but at the distance I am shooting I have no need.

 

[CoElkHunter]

My .485 Lott remains an open sight proposition due to its recoil. I think that the Leupold Ultralight 2.5x would work well on it, but at the distance I am shooting I have no need.

Must be difficult to find bullets in that diameter? LOL

 

[Forrest Halley]

Must be difficult to find bullets in that diameter? LOL

It's proprietary ammunition... it's pronounced Doo-mahs...LOL