45-70 for dangerous game?

[sgt_zim]

Ok I am wrong. I looked up the post again and it was a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fps. That is about 4200 ft lbs. So can you actually put a 500 grain bullet into a 45-70 and make it go 2200+ fps? I am thinking no way?

I push 525 gr bullets at a little north of 1600 fps, that's about as hard as you're going to be able to push something that heavy out of a Marlin. You could probably get that to 1800 out of a Ruger #1 or #3.

Bullet mass trumps velocity (within reason). 375 H&H and 375 Ruger work with 300 gr bullets because they're going 2500-2600 fps, and are much higher sectional density than a 300 gr bullet in .458. More, most of the jacketed bullets suitable for 45-70 have thin jackets and are utterly unsuitable for DG. I don't even like the Hornady FTX 325 gr for deer or hogs. It works, but the lead alloy bullets I shoot are better, IMO.

Would *I* use a 45-70 for DG? Yes, given my hand loads, I would. But I have a 9.3x62 and a 404 Jeffery, both of which are better choices. If I were in the bushveld, hunting PG with my 45-70 and stumbled across a buffalo at 50 - 75 yards and had a perfect broadside or quartering away shot, AND my PH was comfortable with it, then yes.

Would I specifically go after a buffalo with my 45-70, a-la Vince Lupo? No, I wouldn't. Would I go into griz/brown bear country with it? Absolutely and fearlessly.

 

[pamtnman]

I push 525 gr bullets at a little north of 1600 fps, that's about as hard as you're going to be able to push something that heavy out of a Marlin. You could probably get that to 1800 out of a Ruger #1 or #3.

Bullet mass trumps velocity (within reason). 375 H&H and 375 Ruger work with 300 gr bullets because they're going 2500-2600 fps, and are much higher sectional density than a 300 gr bullet in .458. More, most of the jacketed bullets suitable for 45-70 have thin jackets and are utterly unsuitable for DG. I don't even like the Hornady FTX 325 gr for deer or hogs. It works, but the lead alloy bullets I shoot are better, IMO.

Would *I* use a 45-70 for DG? Yes, given my hand loads, I would. But I have a 9.3x62 and a 404 Jeffery, both of which are better choices. If I were in the bushveld, hunting PG with my 45-70 and stumbled across a buffalo at 50 - 75 yards and had a perfect broadside or quartering away shot, AND my PH was comfortable with it, then yes.

Would I specifically go after a buffalo with my 45-70, a-la Vince Lupo? No, I wouldn't. Would I go into griz/brown bear country with it? Absolutely and fearlessly.

SGT ZIM I am most interested to learn about the lead alloy bullets you shoot out of your Marlin 45-70. I too am unimpressed by the Hornady FTX and I too am a handloader and bullet caster. A good pile of Lyman #2 is at hand, probably destined to be poured into the old 330-grain Gould mold. Is that the alloy you use? Thank you

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I've got ten bull moose, a few more than that caribou, 2 kudu, 2 impala, a warthog, a zebra, a blue wildebeest, a springbok, and a blesbok that say FTX bullets can do just fine, at least out of the .338 Marlin. And the ten bull moose were all essentially one shot kills.

 

[Rafiki]

@Rafiki ... I assume your comment about the LEVER ammo is specific to DG? (and I do not disagree)

Yup, that's what we're talking about.

 

[steve white]

At the end of the day, I don't want to shoot something that would make a doubtful PH hesitant to put me in harms way. I want to hunt up close and personal if possible, and a PH might not want to risk that with a marginal cartridge choice?....

 

[double rifle newbie]

45-70 on DG? no. Not even in the conversation. a DG gun needs to be a stopping rifle. u might kill that griz u shot with your 45-70, but if not anchored and he get to u, he has enough oxygen in his brain to maul u before he flops over. never never an option.

 

[gbflyer]

Sure want one of those Henry All Weather side gate models. I have carried a 45-70 guiding in brown bear country and would again. That’s about as dangerous as I’ll ever see.

 

[sgt_zim]

SGT ZIM I am most interested to learn about the lead alloy bullets you shoot out of your Marlin 45-70. I too am unimpressed by the Hornady FTX and I too am a handloader and bullet caster. A good pile of Lyman #2 is at hand, probably destined to be poured into the old 330-grain Gould mold. Is that the alloy you use? Thank you

I got mine from BearTooth Bullets, it's the 525 gr Pile Driver, I also shoot the 425 gr Pile Driver, Junior. Sadly, Marshall went out of business 2 or 3 years ago. Same nose profile on both, the meplat is either .36 or .38", can't remember which. They are WFNGC profile, that's the only reason they'll cycle in the Marlin. A RN profile will end up being too long at that weight.

BNH on these is around 21 or 22, not sure what special sauce he put in them, but they're not brittle.

I have about 45 of the 525 gr left, and about 70 or 80 of the 425 gr.

IDK what I'll load up after these are gone, but it'll never be another jacketed bullet, and nothing lighter than 405 gr.

Not sure if you're aware or not, but lead and lead alloy are easy to load. Any published load for a jacketed bullet of a given weight is a safe load for a lead bullet of the same weight. I use 41.0 gr of RL7 for 405, 425, and 525 gr bullets, MV is nearly identical on all of them.

 

[sgt_zim]

I've got ten bull moose, a few more than that caribou, 2 kudu, 2 impala, a warthog, a zebra, a blue wildebeest, a springbok, and a blesbok that say FTX bullets can do just fine, at least out of the .338 Marlin. And the ten bull moose were all essentially one shot kills.

I've had more than 1 core separation. The deer and pigs were still dead on 1 shot, that's just not a place I care to venture anymore.

Plus, both 250 gr and 325 gr FTX for 45-70 have to have the brass trimmed down to 2.040" (standard trim length is 2.095")

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I have only used the FTX in factory ammo.

I have no complaints on the results at all; I have yet to fire an FTX into an animal that did not end up dead, and far and away quickly at that.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A question. Lets say you show up here in Zimbabwe with your .45-70 with your supposed “whiz-bang” load that is supposed to meet our MINIMUM legal requirements. How is your PH supposed to know what your load consist of do you think he is going to have a chronograph in camp? Then you have the question, will this load be safe in the rifle? Will it cycle in the clients rifle every time. When you show up with your Bakal double bored to .45-110 is it going to blow up taking half your face off and maybe your hand. I know I would not be standing any clode.

Lon

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Mine was RSA, so that's different right there. I don't know about once on the ground in Africa, but I consulted with my PH at every step of load development, showing him photos of groups on paper, having discussions about on sticks practice, and providing chronograph numbers. Now, I could have been lying through my teeth to him... but I wasn't.

Could it have still went wrong? Sure. But that can be true with any weapon.

He told me shots would be under 75. I sighted in for 75. My groups were quite tight, off sticks. Two mature cows... 2 40ish yard shots - one frontal, one trotting broadside... 2 buffalo dead inside ten seconds, each from a single shot. Outstanding penetration on both. Maybe I just got lucky. I feel like it was the result of putting in the time/preparing and communicating with my PH.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Hi Tundra Tiger,

It sounds like YOU did your homework and it worked for YOU in RSA. Congraulations on your two buffs.

Lon

 

[Chaplin]

Game comes in all shapes and sizes in Africa from antelope the size of jack rabbit to elephant. The hunting terrain also varies from desert to jungle. Whilst your 45-70 will drop most African game at close quarters, I think you would be disadvantaged in shooting plains game, where 200 yard plus shots can be common.A lot of the plains game are lightly built & better suited to a flat shooting calibre with tolerable recoil(243,25-06,270,308,30-06). Even close up the 45-70 only delivers roughly half in foot/pounds energy that a 375 magnum delivers. You will find most guides will insist(by law) that a 375 magnum is the minimum for dangerous game in Africa, & there is a reason for this.

 

[crs]

JUST A REMINDER THAT WITH A 45-90, YOU CAN SHOOT 45-70 OR 45-90 AMMPO , YOUT CHOICE.
ONE RIFLE FROM ELVES TO EMEPHANTS.

 

[Kolekcjoner]

 

[Rafiki]

JUST A REMINDER THAT WITH A 45-90, YOU CAN SHOOT 45-70 OR 45-90 AMMPO , YOUT CHOICE.
ONE RIFLE FROM ELVES TO EMEPHANTS.

Unlikely you could stuff a 45-90 in a Marlin 336.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I guess I have somewhat fallen into defending the .45-70, because I use one and have faith in it. Please understand: I'm not saying it's for everything. Would I use it for elephant? Probably not, though elephant isn't on my radar currently, so that's not a bridge I expect to cross anytime soon. I do believe it can and will work for any buffalo I want to hunt, and I do believe there are more buffalo in my future. I think there are other types of large game I would consider using it for, with the right load and within the constraints of the caliber. Really, it's as much the platform as the cartridge for me: I like lever action guns. I have a .45-70 lever gun, so it is what I use, at the upper end.

Whilst your 45-70 will drop most African game at close quarters, I think you would be disadvantaged in shooting plains game, where 200 yard plus shots can be common.

It is true: it comes with a shorter effective range than some other calibers. However, if one chooses to recognize it's limitations and work within those, I don't see what the issue is. And on my 2 trips to Africa, most shots have been under 200 and some by quite a margin. The PH I hunted with? I think if Don knew I needed to get really close he could have gotten me to within powder burn range on most things we stalked.

A lot of the plains game are lightly built & better suited to a flat shooting calibre with tolerable recoil.

Perhaps. Recoil is subjective. My oldest daughter struggles with anything above a .243 (Herb's palsy; she is sensitive). My youngest - all 4'11.5" of her - accurately shoots hot loads out of my .45-70; she finds it quite tolerable.

You will find most guides will insist (by law) that a 375 magnum is the minimum for dangerous game in Africa, & there is a reason for this.

This is very much a by-country thing, right? Africa says the minimum is .375 - by bullet diameter. My .45-70 was and is legal, and supported by the outfit I have hunted with. If you ask them, I don't think they have ANY qualms based on my two hunts.

 

[Kolekcjoner]

 

[pamtnman]

So, about those .458" Cutting Edge Bullets 325 grain brass solids propelled by either R7 or IMR4198 or maybe something like 10X or 2015 at about 2,100 fps out of the 1895 SBL within 50-60 yards...I am excited to get down to the actual testing here as soon as hunting and trapping seasons end here. Any new information on the .458" Cutting Edge Bullets 325 grain brass solid out of the 1895 SBL is most welcome, thank you. Everyone have an awesome day.