.45-70 for Elephant

[ikeda]

There are plenty accounts of the 45-70 taking elephants. It's been proven multiple times but you refuse to believe it. The truth is you guys suffer from little penis syndrome where you need the biggest baddest most expensive rifles to get the job done. Either you just can't accept the fact that a cheap american rifle can lay the smackdown on your beloved african game even though it's been proven over and over again or you're trying to justify your purchase of an expensive rifle that barely gets used. Either way you guys are in denial and need to get over it.

I suspect you are either deliberately trying to twist some tails, and/or you have never been anywhere around an actual elephant or buffalo being killed. Either way you need to grow up, and learn some manners.
At one time I thought the 45-70 was OK for dangerous game. I asked myself, "after all how tough can a Buffalo or Elephant be?" Right?
Well, I've used a 45-70 for several other African species and after taking my first Buffalo (not with a 45-70) and watching my son take an Elephant (also not with a 45-70) I most definitely do NOT think the 45-70 is OK for elephant or buffalo!

 

[enysse]

Well, I know a PH from Zambia that has done a lot research and development into building a better 45-70, his name is Pete Swanepoel. He has used in for hippo hunting and other things.

I don't want to start a war about the 45-70. I thought Pete's blog on the subject was interesting. That said practically no one on here is going to agree that the 45-70 is a elephant gun.

 

[sestoppelman]

The .45-70 would not be my first choice for DG either. But perhaps if we look at this another way.. In years past there were any number of rounds that were considered at least adequate for all DG that were based upon a minimum .40 or 41 caliber bullet of at least 400 grs weight, moving at least 2000-2100 fps. Look in Taylors books. The .404 Jeffery comes to mind and there are many more like it. Now if you put the tired old obsolete .45-70 round in a modern strong action say like the Ruger No. 1 or even a Marlin lever gun such a load can be developed using modern components and really good 400 gr .45 caliber bullets that will make the speed and drive deep. That is a fact. Same can be said of the .405 Winchester, I have done it. I have not read what Eric mentions above but suspect that is the direction Pete S. is talking about. So dont jump all over me guys, but loaded right in the right type of weapon, I think the .45-70 could be said to be an adequate DG cartridge if not an ideal one. And as far as the big bears give me a hot loaded .45 cal, 400 gr bullet over a .338 winnie any day of the week for a stopper!

 

[firehuntfish]

What a bunch of haters. The 45-70 has proven itself to be adequate for the biggest and baddest African game. You guys just can't handle the fact that a 150 year old AMERICAN cartridge can be so effective on your beloved elephants. You guys really need to get over your inferiority complex and stop hating on things just because they're American. If it wasn't for America you'd all be fucked right now anyway.

You guys need to stop taking the bait from posters like this.... On other forums they are referred to as "trollers". The troll around making purposely inflammatory posts or looking for posts that they can respond to and provoke a reaction....

Most of the time they are little kids. They think it's funny... They will disappear when they cease to get a reaction... Watch, I guarantee you I will provoke a response with this reply....Don't indulge this idiot....

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

You guys need to stop taking the bait from posters like this.... On other forums they are referred to as "trollers". The troll around making purposely inflammatory posts or looking for posts that they can respond to and provoke a reaction....

Most of the time they are little kids. They think it's funny... They will disappear when they cease to get a reaction... Watch, I guarantee you I will provoke a response with this reply....Don't indulge this idiot....

Thanks... USA No 1 has been banned.

 

[brnmw]

I know one gent that killed an elephant with a 45-70 and the bull fell very dead on the first shot....but....its not an elephant gun!!!!!

COMMENT: Owning a .45-70 Govt. rifle even though I have no doubt that it has been done, I agree with this statement. The .45-70 Gov't is not considered an elephant gun, and to be honest with you I don't really think I have heard too many people from where I am from refer to it as such. It is great for carrying into "Grizzly" country here in America, but would not be my go to primary rifle to hunt an elephant with.

 

[35bore]

All I can say to anyone who wants to hunt DG with a 45-70, (EL Rhino and Buff) with this fantastic round, "I'll go with you with my 458 and a camera, because one way or another I would be shooting one or both". It goes hand in hand with the 223 for deer/antelope size animals, with so many choices of caliber WHY choose a minimum caliber. Sure it can be done, but what are we trying to prove, that we can do it?

I know that "USA No one" was booted, but the argument is all over the place. Only reason I am posting again was one of the guys I just poured concrete for, argued this with me today about the 45-70 be "enough" for anything on the planet. It's nut to get that load Safely to the same specks as a 458. Therefore, I'd have to see it done to believe it.

 

[crs]

Fortunately, there were a couple of posts above by shooters that have the experience and knowledge to properly answer the original question. Therefore, I will not bother to repeat any of that. I will show you MY "elephant gun" and pass on a fact or two:


Regardless of the rifle, the bullet does the killing and many hunters favor solid bullets for ele.
The above rifle launches a 450 grain .458 solid at 2150 fps and could handle hotter loads if needed.
It has taken African Ele, Cape Buff, leopard etc. == you get the idea.

This was part of a bullet testing project using Winchester 1886 rifles chambered in .45-70 (.458 2.1) and the above .45-90 (.458 2.4) using custom loaded ammo appropriate to the task.
The final component of the test was the use of an experienced 1886 shooter with DG experience.

Using the proper solid bullets, both the .45-70 and the .45-90 rifles shot through the ele heads on frontal brain shots and on into the bodies and the bullets had to be cut out for inspection. Both rifles also took Cape buff and the .458 2.4 took big tom leopard with a 300 grain Nosler PP.

Does this make these guns "elephant rifles" in the general sense and for the general public of hunters? Do they fit the traditional African Rifle image? Are they common in Africa?
IMHO, NO!

In the hands of the right hunters and with proper ammo? IMHO, Yes.

For another atypical African DG rifle, check out the Winchester 1895 .405 to the left. You can also read how OSA Johnson used her 1895 .405 to keep the ele, rhino, and such from trampling her husband, Martin Johnson, when he was taking nature photos in the Dark Continent. Osa also used her .405 to maintain the larder for their photo safaris.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I have been seeing a lot of Americans on the internet calling the .45-70 an "Elephant rifle". I hate it because IMO, the .45-70 can kill an Elephant but it is not necessarily an "Elephant rifle". However, if you dare attempt to debate them they often resort to name calling. I have even seen PH's tell them that the .45-70 is not an "elephant rifle", and they get told they are idiots. Now, my question is the .45-70 an "Elephant rifle"? What do you guys think?




Sorry for the grammar, I know I'm not the best kid in the world with grammar.

I will kill an elephant with a 8x57JS Mauser :
In order to achieve this I will be getting up to ten meters from the elephant for a side brain shot......there are two scenarios following this action...

First I know the elephant will drop dead if I hit the brain.....
Second...if I miss it will ran for ever and I will loose the elephant and a lot of money.
Third..if the shot is miss, the elephant will kill me, I will not be able to stop it at all since it is not a charge stopper rifle...if another elephant /elephant cow charge me after the missed shot I will be trampled to death....but it can be done...
Why do you want to kill an elephant with a under powered caliber?? While you have calibers like a .458 Win Mag, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery , .450 Rigby, .500 Jeffery ?? Because it is the right rifle caliber for the right type of hunt..dangerous game hunting....
The 8x57JS is not an elephant gun as well as the 45-70 caliber , these are not Elephant guns at all.

 

[Whacker]

I know this is an old thread but since it has recent replies I will add my experiences. I have never hunted Africa yet but am hoping to soon but I do however own a 45-70 and use it on a regular basis here in the states. Having said that...I have never fired a factory round from my rifle...I load all my rounds for it. I think it is a very versatile rifle for many parts of the world on many animals. I use mine for everything from hogs to whitetail deer to bear. Having said that a lot of the rifles performance has to do with proper bullet selection for the occasion. I shoot 300 grain hollow points on deer and hog launched out of my rifle (Marlin 1895 GBL 18.5” barrel) at 2200fps. On a crooked quartering shot they will regularly stop just under the skin on the off side of a whitetail. The other round I load is a 405 grain hard cast bullet traveling around 1950 FPS...this round is a very good penetrator. I have never recovered one of these even from a bear shot in the breast it made complete penetration going through a rear hip. Now having said that...is it an elephant gun?? I personally would not use it. I have no doubt with a proper head shot it “should” take one down immediately...but in my mind there are far better options. A .375 diameter solid has much less resistance moving through the animal due to its shape and diameter as well as its much higher muzzle velocity of 2500 or so FPS should in theory penetrate much deeper and be a much better option in my mind. I know many consider the .375 marginal for this use but it has much more penetration potential than the 45-70. As far as that goes a .22 long rifle will drop a deer with a proper shot...but I would never recommend trying it.

 

[Tanks]

I personally would be comfortable hunting 10-lb elephants with the .17 HMR, but I think people who do it with Daisy BB guns are just nuts.

Would be tough to find a 10 lbs elephant as they weight around 200 lbs at birth. So might have to go to a .22 magnum.

 

[jim. sbell]

I love the 45-70. I have ONE single shot 45-70, a repro from Henry. I have never hunted with it. But it was first big bore rifle I ever shot. My father was small bore champion of CA in 1936 so I was always around guns. I started shooting at 5 years of age. He had a Springfield Trapdoor and a Remington Rolling Block. One day when I was 10 years old I asked him to let me shoot the 45-70. He did and it almost killed me a, 70 pound weakling, shooting prone on a gravel surface. But it taught me, as he was intending, that you can do anything you want to if you want to bad enough. It also taught me that the recoil wasnt as bad as I was expecting. I wish I had his Springfield now, but it was stollen in 1946 right after the war ended. But, I would not hunt elephant with it and I wouldnt hunt elephant with my 338 Lapua Magnum....and its a lot more of an elephant gun.

 

[Stephen Ausband]

Three-word book title by Ruark: "USE ENOUGH GUN."

 

[CD24]

I shot an african buff with a 375H&H and was feeling very under-gunned. If I ever had it to do again I wouldn't attempt it with anything less than a 416. On the flip side a hunting buddy of mine shot a young whitetail buck a week ago with a 45-70 and we had to get the hounds to track it. I will admit that it wasn't the best shot but there was a poor blood trail and awful terminal ballistics. The shot was taken at 87 yards. I admit that a 416 Ruger is overkill on whitetail deer, but each time I shoot one their spine is broken and they remain right where I left them. Call it blasphemy but I think the 45-70 is a 75yd and in brush gun for light to medium skinned game. I was not impressed.

 

[Paul Raley]

I apologize for entering this discussion late and possibly changing the direction a bit . I know this is about the 45-70 but and interesting comment was made earlier about elephants being killed with a .22 Rimfire . One of the reasons I am on this forum is to learn from others that have more Knowledge and experience than me .
I would like to know from those of you that have the experience whether an elephant can genuinely be killed by a 22 Rimfire . Are there any credible reports of adult elephants being killed with 22 Rimfires ? My perception is that it would be almost impossible to kill an adult elephant with a 22 Rimfire but that juvenile elephants may be possible ?
Living in SA I have am fortunate to be able to sometimes inter act with some of the old
"Big game hunters" and the PHs , the ones I have spoken to re this topic say they have never tried it and never will but are of the opinion that it is highly unlikely that a 22 Rimfire will kill an adult elephant . ( Before any one gets upset this is a theoretical exercise I am in no way advocating shooting elephant or any other game animal with a 22 Rimfire )
Your comments and opinions would be appreciated .

 

[Tanks]

...I know this is about the 45-70 but and interesting comment was made earlier about elephants being killed with a .22 Rimfire . One of the reasons I am on this forum is to learn from others that have more Knowledge and experience than me .
I would like to know from those of you that have the experience whether an elephant can genuinely be killed by a 22 Rimfire . ...

As many have pointed out in discussions with those of us that like to use big bores.

a) All that matters is bullet placement not caliber.
b) Big bores generate more recoil that makes everyone using them inaccurate shots as they'd flinch.
c) A . 22 generating almost no recoil leads to very accurate shot placement.

Therefore, using their logic, a .22 rimfire is the ultimate elephant gun.

 

[jim. sbell]

I think point B) is not necessarily true. I do not flinch because I have trained myself to not know when the gun is going off. If you dont know when it will go bang, you cannot flinch until it is too late to affect the path of the bullet. If you flinch, you need more training.

 

[Tanks]

I think point B) is not necessarily true. ..

"Using their logic..."

 

[Trogon]

I shot an african buff with a 375H&H and was feeling very under-gunned. If I ever had it to do again I wouldn't attempt it with anything less than a 416. On the flip side a hunting buddy of mine shot a young whitetail buck a week ago with a 45-70 and we had to get the hounds to track it. I will admit that it wasn't the best shot but there was a poor blood trail and awful terminal ballistics. The shot was taken at 87 yards. I admit that a 416 Ruger is overkill on whitetail deer, but each time I shoot one their spine is broken and they remain right where I left them. Call it blasphemy but I think the 45-70 is a 75yd and in brush gun for light to medium skinned game. I was not impressed.

Can you tell us specifics of the bullet used to shoot your friend's buck? I've used the Winchester 300 gr hollowpoint on several deer, killed all with a single shot but on my largest (220 lbs dressed) this bullet fragmented badly on a shoulder shot at 50 yards (buck dropped dead at the shot). Others were behind the shoulder and complete pass through, short runs after before falling. I've switched over to cast lead bullets more recently (HSM Bear Load at 435 grains, 1800 fps I believe).
I was able to kill a young bison while hunting with @gizmo at his ranch earlier this year and had complete penetration through both shoulders with at least one of two bullets.
I've seen two instances where the Hornady FTX 325 grain factory load were used on deer, and the insides looked like a grenade had been swallowed. Not a fan of that FTX bullet from what I've seen on <100 yard shots on deer.

 

[machinistbutler]

I shot an african buff with a 375H&H and was feeling very under-gunned. If I ever had it to do again I wouldn't attempt it with anything less than a 416. On the flip side a hunting buddy of mine shot a young whitetail buck a week ago with a 45-70 and we had to get the hounds to track it. I will admit that it wasn't the best shot but there was a poor blood trail and awful terminal ballistics. The shot was taken at 87 yards. I admit that a 416 Ruger is overkill on whitetail deer, but each time I shoot one their spine is broken and they remain right where I left them. Call it blasphemy but I think the 45-70 is a 75yd and in brush gun for light to medium skinned game. I was not impressed.

There are threads on here , written by very experienced buffalo hunters, who have seen a higher rate of one shot kills with the 375 vs the bigger calibers.

Your friend shot a deer with a 45/70 and it ran. It is hard to blame a cartridge or caliber if the wrong bullet or a poor shot was made.