.45-70 for Elephant

[CoElkHunter]

@CoElkHunter
My Nissan 4x4 is a 1997 model with 340,000 km on the clock and the steering is still tight. Might not be flash or fantsy bet still gets the job done.
Bob

I have to admit, Nissans are pretty much bullet proof. They are built well. Our Infinity FX35 was great and now our daughter in law has it.

 

[Sarg]

Oh I'm sorry no no, Toyota is the miles ahead winner in the extreme off road do or die stacks, in all of real outback Aussie & Africa the Land Cruiser rules, dead Nissans & less are laying all over !!

Been driving them in extreme jobs since 1978, the others do not hold up & are hard to repair when there do break !!

I say this & at this point in time I'm driving a old Nissan 4X4 & it has been good but I;m not doing extreme work with it & only have it as I can't afford the Toyota right now lol !

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Oh I'm sorry no no, Toyota is the miles ahead winner in the extreme off road do or die stacks, in all of real outback Aussie & Africa the Land Cruiser rules, dead Nissans & less are laying all over !!

Been driving them in extreme jobs since 1978, the others do not hold up & are hard to repair when there do break !!

I say this & at this point in time I'm driving a old Nissan 4X4 & it has been good but I;m not doing extreme work with it & only have it as I can't afford the Toyota right now lol !

@Sarg
The Toyota may look better but in sheer drivetrain strength the Nissan shots in the Toyo.
Pity we can't take the best of the Nissan and Toyota and combine them into one kick arse beast.
Bob

 

[flatwater bill]

This thread is 12 years old now.....about the same age as the youngster that made the OP. I read only the first part on a 45-70. Then I skipped to the last page, and it had morphed into a truck comparison. That's OK....but I wonder where the OP is now that he's grown up? And why did we lose him on AH so long ago.(last seen 2013).......and if he ever made it to Africa to try out his 45-2.1 on ele..........................FWB

 

[JimP]

The OP may of been trampled by a elephant shortly after he shot it with a 45-70 back in 2013.

 

[ChrisG]

This thread is 12 years old now.....about the same age as the youngster that made the OP. I read only the first part on a 45-70. Then I skipped to the last page, and it had morphed into a truck comparison. That's OK....but I wonder where the OP is now that he's grown up? And why did we lose him on AH so long ago.(last seen 2013).......and if he ever made it to Africa to try out his 45-2.1 on ele..........................FWB

Sometimes I get the feeling new members come on here, post a question and then get violently corrected or ridiculed, thus perpetuating the "snooty African Hunter" persona. This forum is the best on the internet for not having insult slinging contests but there are some on here that are excellent at coaching and others who only ridicule. I for one am guilty of it too but I want to perpetuate the sport not exclude those wanting to learn.

 

[JimP]

The OP did hang around for around 4 years and 300 post so I think that he was just mining internet information.

There are a lot like that, they have questions so they join a internet forum like this one to ask their questions. then once the questions are answered and or they have gone on their hunt they are no longer interested in a forum type of discussion.

 

[CoElkHunter]

To be fair, I wasn't insinuating that Fords were junk, merely that an F-350 can't match a $40M F1 car with 800bhp/ton and a million dollar brake job.

Just like a 45-70 can "get around the track", but it doesn't really have the stuff to compete with real elephant guns.

"million dollar brake job". I could go on a couple of African Safaris for that money!

 

[Dr Ray]

I was told that some people were in a tree house when something shook the tree. One of them fired a 22 short through the floor.
Next morning they found a dead Elephant. According to the story the 22 just happened to penetrate the top of of the skull in exactly the right place.
True or not I would say that the 22 is certainly not an elephant cartridge.

 

[ChrisG]

I was told that some people were in a tree house when something shook the tree. One of them fired a 22 short through the floor.
Next morning they found a dead Elephant. According to the story the 22 just happened to penetrate the top of of the skull in exactly the right place.
True or not I would say that the 22 is certainly not an elephant cartridge.

One of the famous conservationists, whether is was Kevin Robertson, Ivan Carter or another one had a story about a poacher that had developed the skill to put a .22 short into an artery just behind the front leg of an elephant as it took a step. The artery was just under the skin as a .22 cant reach anything vital in an animal the size of an elephant. Anyway, they would then follow the elephant, which probably didnt even realize it was wounded, until it passed out and died of blood loss. Yet another example of "better than a pointy stick", but not by much.

People often point to WDM bell and incorrectly assume that he stopped charges with a 6.5 MS. Fortunately he wasnt stupid. He didnt use the 6.5 because he thought it was the best elephant gun, he used it because he was in the ivory business and he was minimizing his business overhead. Even then, a double rifle cost probably 10-20x what a bolt action MS rifle cost and the ammunition was plentiful and cheap unlike .416 Rigby ammo. He also owned big bore and medium bore rifles. And I think people underestimate his superhuman offhand marksmanship skills and his ice cool temperment in an elephant herd. There is the story of him sending some water thieves into the hills by shooting one of their shovel handles in half and keeping them running by skipping bullets around their feet, all without hitting them, out past a few hundred yards... with a mauser broomhandle pistol.

Lets keep WDM Bell out of the .45-70 for elephant argument, because no one today has the life experience or lived in the same Africa he did. He isnt a good example any more than superman is a good example of not needing hydraulics.

 

[TOBY458]

And just think.....some folks don't even consider the 458 Winchester suitable for ole Jumbo.

 

[leslie hetrick]

a 400 gr solid bullet(not cast) at 2100 fps out of a 45-70 would be as good as quite a few british big bore rifles that have killed thousands of elephants in the past. check out the ballistics on them. 100 yard group with a 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps out of a ruger #1. 450/400 express 3" 400 gr bullet 2100 fps, 450/400 nitro express 3 1/4 400 gr bullet 2150 fps, 404 rimless nitro express 400 gr bullet 2150 fps, 416 rigby 410 gr bullet 2300 fps.

 

[IvW]

a 400 gr solid bullet(not cast) at 2100 fps out of a 45-70 would be as good as quite a few british big bore rifles that have killed thousands of elephants in the past. check out the ballistics on them.

That combination will get people seriously injured or killed on large bull elephant with attempted frontal brain shots.

 

[ChrisG]

a 400 gr solid bullet(not cast) at 2100 fps out of a 45-70 would be as good as quite a few british big bore rifles that have killed thousands of elephants in the past. check out the ballistics on them.

While that sounds all well and good, you won't get that level of power out of a marlin guide gun with a cartridge that is short enough that it will feed though the mechanism. Even a ruger no.1 won't easily do that unless you seat the bullet out quite a ways. You would be running 65,000 psi in a marlin lever gun designed to handle 45,000 without slowly stretching over time. Especially since a .416 Ruger is just a little more money and is totally capable of easily taking the largest game on earth. A .416 400 grain solid at 2,250fps vs a .458 400 grain at barely 2,000 (those are the numbers I am seeing from a ruger no.1, 24" barrel at 55-60,000psi). Keep in mind that pressure will be higher with a monometal bullet because it is longer and less compressible for the same weight.

People often try to make a .45-70 into a .458 win mag and run pressure through the roof to do it. I could fill the case up with Blue Dot and probably get some pretty respectable velocity... for a few shots.

You posted some references to 40 and 41 caliber bullets which have a better sectional density than a .458 bullet does, but thats like saying a .357, 158 grain bullet will perform just like a 158 grain .41 mag bullet. Which is definitely not the case. In a .357 it would penetrate to the vitals, in the .41 mag it would splash on the surface and fail to penetrate bone very well.

 

[machinistbutler]

That combination will get people seriously injured or killed on large bull elephant with attempted frontal brain shots.

What would you recommend as an acceptable combination for the frontal brain shot on a large bull elephant?

Not that I will ever get the opportunity but one can sure enjoy dreaming about it!

 

[gbflyer]

Didn’t Chris Pratt carry one in a Marlin Guide Gun for T-Rex in Jurassic Park?

 

[WAB]

a 400 gr solid bullet(not cast) at 2100 fps out of a 45-70 would be as good as quite a few british big bore rifles that have killed thousands of elephants in the past. check out the ballistics on them. 100 yard group with a 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps out of a ruger #1. 450/400 express 3" 400 gr bullet 2100 fps, 450/400 nitro express 3 1/4 400 gr bullet 2150 fps, 404 rimless nitro express 400 gr bullet 2150 fps, 416 rigby 410 gr bullet 2300 fps.

View attachment 404500

Leslie, what are the scope mounts on that No 1? They have overcome the mounting difficulties with No 1’s quite nicely!

 

[IvW]

What would you recommend as an acceptable combination for the frontal brain shot on a large bull elephant?

Not that I will ever get the opportunity but one can sure enjoy dreaming about it!

At a minimum a 375 H&H with a meplat monometal solid of at least 300gr, 340gr or 350gr would be better and this would be for a visiting hunter, 400 caliber would be better again with a heavy for caliber bullet of monometal and meplat design if they can handle the recoil. Shot placement is most important as a frontal brain shot requires precise placement and is not easy for first time hunters, close proximaty to the eleohant etc. All play a roll.
PH will most of the time be using a minimum 458 many use 458 Lott, the ones that hunt a lot of elephant rely on the 500's.....

 

[leslie hetrick]

rings are ruger extension rings and i need them as i hate to do the stock craw. the HODGDON reloading manual lists 45-70 lever action with 24" barrel and 400 gr bullet with 50.5 grs H-4198 at 2002 fps with 39,400 CUP, ruger #1 with 24" barrel load 400 gr bullet at 2108 fps with 53 grs H-4198 with 49,100 CUP. picture ruger #3 with the load listed for the marlin 95 lever action, with the shorter barrel on the #3 i get a little less than 2002 fps.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

rings are ruger extension rings and i need them as i hate to do the stock craw. the HODGDON reloading manual lists 45-70 lever action with 24" barrel and 400 gr bullet with 50.5 grs H-4198 at 2002 fps with 39,400 CUP, ruger #1 with 24" barrel load 400 gr bullet at 2108 fps with 53 grs H-4198 with 49,100 CUP. picture ruger #3 with the load listed for the marlin 95 lever action, with the shorter barrel on the #3 i get a little less than 2002 fps.

@leslie hetrick
Judging by the the band on the forend it is a Ruger No3. That's some pretty good shooting.
Bob