A thorough conversation with Swarovski - Conclusion: Rookhawk knows nothing and is wrong about everything

[Inline6]

Maybe they’ll switch gears and try to get a .mil contract, go belly up.

They will never go after a military contract. I used to shoot for Kahles (a long time ago). I talked with our rep about Swarovski building a scope we could use in the prs. He said that would never happen. Essentially, they do not want their products used in a war.

 

[towserthemouser]

Birders are a serious group of enthusiasts who are not afraid to drop big money on good glass. The average birder probably knows more about optics technology than the average hunter. If you look at the big optics companies marketing material, you will see that they are going for that market segment most definitely.

Most of the birders I talked to placed a big emphasis on Field of View over magnification; makes sense when trying to spot a small highly mobile target in deep cover.

Also it was very fun to watch them hear a bird, identify it by the song, and then make a visual binocular search to find it. I was successful in doing this a few times but some of those folks are downright preternatural at finding birds.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Until, I developed an interest in hunting in Africa, my prep for North American deer hunting consisted of pulling the old Mauser custom 270 back out of the safe, wiping it down and going to the range to fire three shots of my chosen ammo to verify that it still shot to POA at 100y. We rarely ever shot out past 200y and the old VXII Leupold POS 3-9 scope was enough for the job. To be honest until only the last 10-12 years, I did not realize how bad most of my scopes were.

While setting up a pair of rifles for Africa, I put a low cost Leupold 1.5-4x optic onto my 375 and used it to deer hunt. This showed me just how bad that little 1" optic was. It lacked clarity in low light. I went on a search for a better optic. Thru a auction house I acquired both a Kahles K16i and a Swarovski Z6i. Both illuminated 1-6x, 30mm optics. I liked some of the Swaro features for hunting but liked the Kahles better. I know the same firm owns both but they are hardly equivalent. The Kahles has better turrets, a better reticle and better illumination. The Swaro is slightly lighter, has the neat on-off features with the illumination and is a bit more simple in its approach. Glass clarity is the same -excellent.

I ended up using the Swarovski on my first 375 because it fit a little better with the low rings I used. But, when I got my 2nd 375, I was pleased that the Kahles fit well and I will be using it going forward. Dialing turrets on hunting rifles in the field is not the best approach since it takes time and can lead to mistakes. It you are that far away, you really should get closer or pass up the shot. Just know that I am also a long range target shooter and I have several rifles with big ass scopes and great turrets and dialing a turret for ballistic drop is more precise than just a hold over. The difference is that targets do not spook or run away and while a timer might add some mental pressure to the shooter, it simply is not the same as a hunting situation.

I recently purchased a pair of nice hunting rifles and plan to make one of them my PG rifle for Africa this year. One is a 7mm Mag with a nice Swaro Z5 3.5-18x and the other is a 7mm/08 with a low priced Arken LP-8 1-8x LPVO. I had planned on using the 7mm Mag in Africa but honestly, the little Arken despite being lower powered and much lower priced, is a better tool for a hunting job and is providing accurate shots out to 400y. I like it enough, that I am thinking about removing the Swarovski from the 7mm Mag and installing another Arken on it. They are equally clear and the only advantage the Swarovski has is the higher magnification and to be honest, in most hunting situations, that is not a real advantage. The Arken is a little chunky but is still lighter, more compact and easier to use. It is a FFP type but uses hold over for longer range shooting. This means no matter what power setting I use the hold over is correct on the reticle. With the 2FP Z5, the scope must be at full zoom 18x to accurately use a hold over with the reticle. This is not an issue when shooting targets but in the field, I want to use the lowest power setting that will get the job done. The only saving grace is the 7mm Mag is point blank out to 250y and I would not likely need to shoot it much further out. Bottom line is that if Arken can make a better product for $299 retail, it is a real deterrent to me buying more of the fancy German glass.

Buy the way, I used to work in Germany, and am friends with a number of German engineers who are some of the best. They are very egotistical and are taught from birth that their minds are superior to all others. It was always fun to show them better ways to design some of the various products. I do like their approach to quality first and the price will be, what the price is. The buyer can decide if it is worth it to have the best. Their attention to detail is very good.

7mm/08 with Arken Optics LP-8 LPVO​

 

[Finprof]

]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]" data-quote="HankBuck" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

[emoji[emoji6]]]@WAB - funny, I deer hunted in South Carolina in the late [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]s and believe they also allowed shooting until ONE HOUR AFTER sunset…..I was unable to see the ground [emoji6] minutes after !!!

South Carolina still allows shooting an hour after sunset. The logic is that it is allows finishing off a wounded deer. A knife would also work, though.

 

[375er]

Until, I developed an interest in hunting in Africa, my prep for North American deer hunting consisted of pulling the old Mauser custom 270 back out of the safe, wiping it down and going to the range to fire three shots of my chosen ammo to verify that it still shot to POA at 100y. We rarely ever shot out past 200y and the old VXII Leupold POS 3-9 scope was enough for the job. To be honest until only the last 10-12 years, I did not realize how bad most of my scopes were.

While setting up a pair of rifles for Africa, I put a low cost Leupold 1.5-4x optic onto my 375 and used it to deer hunt. This showed me just how bad that little 1" optic was. It lacked clarity in low light. I went on a search for a better optic. Thru a auction house I acquired both a Kahles K16i and a Swarovski Z6i. Both illuminated 1-6x, 30mm optics. I liked some of the Swaro features for hunting but liked the Kahles better. I know the same firm owns both but they are hardly equivalent. The Kahles has better turrets, a better reticle and better illumination. The Swaro is slightly lighter, has the neat on-off features with the illumination and is a bit more simple in its approach. Glass clarity is the same -excellent.

I ended up using the Swarovski on my first 375 because it fit a little better with the low rings I used. But, when I got my 2nd 375, I was pleased that the Kahles fit well and I will be using it going forward. Dialing turrets on hunting rifles in the field is not the best approach since it takes time and can lead to mistakes. It you are that far away, you really should get closer or pass up the shot. Just know that I am also a long range target shooter and I have several rifles with big ass scopes and great turrets and dialing a turret for ballistic drop is more precise than just a hold over. The difference is that targets do not spook or run away and while a timer might add some mental pressure to the shooter, it simply is not the same as a hunting situation.

I recently purchased a pair of nice hunting rifles and plan to make one of them my PG rifle for Africa this year. One is a 7mm Mag with a nice Swaro Z5 3.5-18x and the other is a 7mm/08 with a low priced Arken LP-8 1-8x LPVO. I had planned on using the 7mm Mag in Africa but honestly, the little Arken despite being lower powered and much lower priced, is a better tool for a hunting job and is providing accurate shots out to 400y. I like it enough, that I am thinking about removing the Swarovski from the 7mm Mag and installing another Arken on it. They are equally clear and the only advantage the Swarovski has is the higher magnification and to be honest, in most hunting situations, that is not a real advantage. The Arken is a little chunky but is still lighter, more compact and easier to use. It is a FFP type but uses hold over for longer range shooting. This means no matter what power setting I use the hold over is correct on the reticle. With the 2FP Z5, the scope must be at full zoom 18x to accurately use a hold over with the reticle. This is not an issue when shooting targets but in the field, I want to use the lowest power setting that will get the job done. The only saving grace is the 7mm Mag is point blank out to 250y and I would not likely need to shoot it much further out. Bottom line is that if Arken can make a better product for $299 retail, it is a real deterrent to me buying more of the fancy German glass.

Buy the way, I used to work in Germany, and am friends with a number of German engineers who are some of the best. They are very egotistical and are taught from birth that their minds are superior to all others. It was always fun to show them better ways to design some of the various products. I do like their approach to quality first and the price will be, what the price is. The buyer can decide if it is worth it to have the best. Their attention to detail is very good.

View attachment 668309

7mm/08 with Arken Optics LP-8 LPVO​

"POS Leupod"........wow.......

 

[HankBuck]

What does the study of birds have to do with objective lens size?

Kidding aside, if we look at the trends in scopes and their reticles, it’s not even a copy and paste from tactical to hunting optics. Take the mk12, which has been popular forever and is arguably responsible for more innovation and change for the AR platform than any other model. (Free floating hand guards, special purpose platforms, etc.) Many of the early iterations had simple(r) duplex reticles and there are reports of guys using their own hunting optics on deployments.

It’s an interesting observation that guys were using an upgraded platform (intended for use out to 700m~) to engage other dudes and were using what were (not always) essentially hunting optics to do so. Now we have hunting platforms trying to utilize tactical Christmas tree reticles to engage deer.

Knowing your holds and being familiar with your tools is important in both tactical and hunting situations. Speed is important in both settings for different reasons. Practice, practice, practice.

@Josh P - I gotta give your post a “Like” even if I can’t fully follow it because it sounds “really smart” and therefore over-my-head. You are either an Ornithologist, Ophthalmologist, or Gynecologist a Smart guy regardless and knows a lot about anything In-A-Bush

 

[Tucketed]

Google "swarovski family feud".. it gets covered occasionally by the European press, but hasn't caught much attention on this side of the pond.. you'll see a couple of articles published as early as late 2019 (pre covid) about disputes, arguments, etc among the family members.. and then by mid 2020 there's a lot of traction in the press as their disputes heat up.. with several more articles being published through 2024 as they start actually filing lawsuits in an attempt to get things resolved...

here's a few of the links I found interesting:

Family feud rages as Swarovski empire loses its lustre

“We are forced to reimagine and rescale our entire Swarovski business,” Buchbauer tells AFP at the Wattens HQ, framed by a selection of Swarovski-embellished robes.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

https://www.courthousenews.com/family-feud-rages-as-swarovski-empire-loses-its-luster/

Swarovski family at war over future of empire amid falling profits

Robert Buchbauer, CEO of Swarovski and the great-great gandson of its founder, wants to radically overhaul the company amid a torrid year that is due to see profits slump by 30 per cent.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Austria/Switzerland : Swarovski struggling with languid growth and lingering family conflict - 21/03/2024 - Glitz

Crystal jewellery giant Swarovski announced a tentative return to growth in 2023, but the company has not paid dividends to family shareholders for more than four years and is caught in the middle of - 3/21/2024

www.glitz.paris

one of my first takeaways when reading was that Swaro is a 2.5B Euro business.. and Swaro Optik represents less than 200M Euros of its total revenue.. while 200M Euros isn't chump change.. its a much smaller piece of the pie than I thought it would be..

That said, in the fine crystal industry, 2.5B isn't just big.. its massive... waterford crystal by comparison did about 9.5M in revenue last year.. baccarat did 313M... Daum Crystal did about 18M..

I can see why Swaro would be much more focused on their fine crystal business than their optik business.. they have an incredibly domineering position.. with limited global competition..

whereas on the optik side of the house, they're actually only an "big" sized player with a whole lot more competition out there.. Leupold did $271M last year.. Vortex did $79M.. nightforce did $23M.. etc..etc..

I have had the pleasure of spending time with Helmut Swarovski and my introduction to their optics were two binoculars he gifted me. He was the Chairman and also headed manufacturing. He loved/loves the optics side of the business. As an avid hunter he recognized the needs of the hunting community. He is one of the finest/smartest gentlemen I have met. He and his part of the family broke ranks when Swarovski hired a non family CEO who has since left. It’s surprising that during the tenure of this new CEO they didn’t sell off the Optics business and hopefully now get back to the roots of 10-15 years ago.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

They will never go after a military contract. I used to shoot for Kahles (a long time ago). I talked with our rep about Swarovski building a scope we could use in the prs. He said that would never happen. Essentially, they do not want their products used in a war.

Interesting. Looking for a reason for this antipathy I did some research. Daniel Swarovsky, the founder, was born near the present Czech boundary with Poland into a family of glass cutters and jewelers. The family name is clearly Polish. In the 1890s he patented a machine to mechanically polish crystal glass which revutionized the industry. Because the machinery required large amounts of electricity he relocated the business to eastern Austria to be near hydroelectric sources. After WWI he expanded into construction abrasives and cutting machinery when he founded Tyrolit, a large conglomerate still in business today. The first Swarovsky binoculars were produced in 1935, a curious advancement during the depth of the Depression. Presumably Swarovsky contributed significantly to Hitler's war effort with both industries. Curiously, Swarovsky company supposedly did not produce rifle scopes until 1950s (I seem to recall Leica made German military scopes for WWII?). But possibly made lenses for other military use (e.g. bomb sights, submarine telescopes, etc.). According to Wikipedia Daniel Swarovski was a member of the Nazi Party, which seems at odds with his Polish heritage. He retained control of the glass end of Swarovski until 1949 when his son took over. Perhaps the family is uncomfortable with the founder's Nazi affiliation and that is why they are now steering clear of anything associated with the military.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It appears outsiders also took over management of "family owned" Tyrolit Group in the last few years. Perhaps the fight is over losing control of the last vestige of Daniel Swarovsky's legendary business empire with the family name still attached. Sentimental?

Edit: Apologies for misspelling Swarovski's name. Continually. Dumb.

 

[Inline6]

Perhaps the family is uncomfortable with the founder's Nazi affiliation and that is why they are now steering clear of anything associated with the military.

You hit the nail on the head, that is the reason they will not pursue military contracts. They are still embarrassed about that to this day.

 

[Ruraldoc]

If you were in buisness in Nazi Germany/Austria, you had to join the Nazi Party or risk being labeled a traitor.

Even Oskar Schindler had to affiliate with the Nazi party.

Not everyone coerced into Nazi membeship was a Nazi at heart.

I'm sure the same thing is true about the Communist Chinese Party today.