A thorough conversation with Swarovski - Conclusion: Rookhawk knows nothing and is wrong about everything

[Inline6]

Maybe they’ll switch gears and try to get a .mil contract, go belly up.

They will never go after a military contract. I used to shoot for Kahles (a long time ago). I talked with our rep about Swarovski building a scope we could use in the prs. He said that would never happen. Essentially, they do not want their products used in a war.

 

[towserthemouser]

Birders are a serious group of enthusiasts who are not afraid to drop big money on good glass. The average birder probably knows more about optics technology than the average hunter. If you look at the big optics companies marketing material, you will see that they are going for that market segment most definitely.

Most of the birders I talked to placed a big emphasis on Field of View over magnification; makes sense when trying to spot a small highly mobile target in deep cover.

Also it was very fun to watch them hear a bird, identify it by the song, and then make a visual binocular search to find it. I was successful in doing this a few times but some of those folks are downright preternatural at finding birds.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Until, I developed an interest in hunting in Africa, my prep for North American deer hunting consisted of pulling the old Mauser custom 270 back out of the safe, wiping it down and going to the range to fire three shots of my chosen ammo to verify that it still shot to POA at 100y. We rarely ever shot out past 200y and the old VXII Leupold POS 3-9 scope was enough for the job. To be honest until only the last 10-12 years, I did not realize how bad most of my scopes were.

While setting up a pair of rifles for Africa, I put a low cost Leupold 1.5-4x optic onto my 375 and used it to deer hunt. This showed me just how bad that little 1" optic was. It lacked clarity in low light. I went on a search for a better optic. Thru a auction house I acquired both a Kahles K16i and a Swarovski Z6i. Both illuminated 1-6x, 30mm optics. I liked some of the Swaro features for hunting but liked the Kahles better. I know the same firm owns both but they are hardly equivalent. The Kahles has better turrets, a better reticle and better illumination. The Swaro is slightly lighter, has the neat on-off features with the illumination and is a bit more simple in its approach. Glass clarity is the same -excellent.

I ended up using the Swarovski on my first 375 because it fit a little better with the low rings I used. But, when I got my 2nd 375, I was pleased that the Kahles fit well and I will be using it going forward. Dialing turrets on hunting rifles in the field is not the best approach since it takes time and can lead to mistakes. It you are that far away, you really should get closer or pass up the shot. Just know that I am also a long range target shooter and I have several rifles with big ass scopes and great turrets and dialing a turret for ballistic drop is more precise than just a hold over. The difference is that targets do not spook or run away and while a timer might add some mental pressure to the shooter, it simply is not the same as a hunting situation.

I recently purchased a pair of nice hunting rifles and plan to make one of them my PG rifle for Africa this year. One is a 7mm Mag with a nice Swaro Z5 3.5-18x and the other is a 7mm/08 with a low priced Arken LP-8 1-8x LPVO. I had planned on using the 7mm Mag in Africa but honestly, the little Arken despite being lower powered and much lower priced, is a better tool for a hunting job and is providing accurate shots out to 400y. I like it enough, that I am thinking about removing the Swarovski from the 7mm Mag and installing another Arken on it. They are equally clear and the only advantage the Swarovski has is the higher magnification and to be honest, in most hunting situations, that is not a real advantage. The Arken is a little chunky but is still lighter, more compact and easier to use. It is a FFP type but uses hold over for longer range shooting. This means no matter what power setting I use the hold over is correct on the reticle. With the 2FP Z5, the scope must be at full zoom 18x to accurately use a hold over with the reticle. This is not an issue when shooting targets but in the field, I want to use the lowest power setting that will get the job done. The only saving grace is the 7mm Mag is point blank out to 250y and I would not likely need to shoot it much further out. Bottom line is that if Arken can make a better product for $299 retail, it is a real deterrent to me buying more of the fancy German glass.

Buy the way, I used to work in Germany, and am friends with a number of German engineers who are some of the best. They are very egotistical and are taught from birth that their minds are superior to all others. It was always fun to show them better ways to design some of the various products. I do like their approach to quality first and the price will be, what the price is. The buyer can decide if it is worth it to have the best. Their attention to detail is very good.

7mm/08 with Arken Optics LP-8 LPVO​

 

[Finprof]

]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]" data-quote="HankBuck" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

[emoji[emoji6]]]@WAB - funny, I deer hunted in South Carolina in the late [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]s and believe they also allowed shooting until ONE HOUR AFTER sunset…..I was unable to see the ground [emoji6] minutes after !!!

South Carolina still allows shooting an hour after sunset. The logic is that it is allows finishing off a wounded deer. A knife would also work, though.

 

[375er]

Until, I developed an interest in hunting in Africa, my prep for North American deer hunting consisted of pulling the old Mauser custom 270 back out of the safe, wiping it down and going to the range to fire three shots of my chosen ammo to verify that it still shot to POA at 100y. We rarely ever shot out past 200y and the old VXII Leupold POS 3-9 scope was enough for the job. To be honest until only the last 10-12 years, I did not realize how bad most of my scopes were.

While setting up a pair of rifles for Africa, I put a low cost Leupold 1.5-4x optic onto my 375 and used it to deer hunt. This showed me just how bad that little 1" optic was. It lacked clarity in low light. I went on a search for a better optic. Thru a auction house I acquired both a Kahles K16i and a Swarovski Z6i. Both illuminated 1-6x, 30mm optics. I liked some of the Swaro features for hunting but liked the Kahles better. I know the same firm owns both but they are hardly equivalent. The Kahles has better turrets, a better reticle and better illumination. The Swaro is slightly lighter, has the neat on-off features with the illumination and is a bit more simple in its approach. Glass clarity is the same -excellent.

I ended up using the Swarovski on my first 375 because it fit a little better with the low rings I used. But, when I got my 2nd 375, I was pleased that the Kahles fit well and I will be using it going forward. Dialing turrets on hunting rifles in the field is not the best approach since it takes time and can lead to mistakes. It you are that far away, you really should get closer or pass up the shot. Just know that I am also a long range target shooter and I have several rifles with big ass scopes and great turrets and dialing a turret for ballistic drop is more precise than just a hold over. The difference is that targets do not spook or run away and while a timer might add some mental pressure to the shooter, it simply is not the same as a hunting situation.

I recently purchased a pair of nice hunting rifles and plan to make one of them my PG rifle for Africa this year. One is a 7mm Mag with a nice Swaro Z5 3.5-18x and the other is a 7mm/08 with a low priced Arken LP-8 1-8x LPVO. I had planned on using the 7mm Mag in Africa but honestly, the little Arken despite being lower powered and much lower priced, is a better tool for a hunting job and is providing accurate shots out to 400y. I like it enough, that I am thinking about removing the Swarovski from the 7mm Mag and installing another Arken on it. They are equally clear and the only advantage the Swarovski has is the higher magnification and to be honest, in most hunting situations, that is not a real advantage. The Arken is a little chunky but is still lighter, more compact and easier to use. It is a FFP type but uses hold over for longer range shooting. This means no matter what power setting I use the hold over is correct on the reticle. With the 2FP Z5, the scope must be at full zoom 18x to accurately use a hold over with the reticle. This is not an issue when shooting targets but in the field, I want to use the lowest power setting that will get the job done. The only saving grace is the 7mm Mag is point blank out to 250y and I would not likely need to shoot it much further out. Bottom line is that if Arken can make a better product for $299 retail, it is a real deterrent to me buying more of the fancy German glass.

Buy the way, I used to work in Germany, and am friends with a number of German engineers who are some of the best. They are very egotistical and are taught from birth that their minds are superior to all others. It was always fun to show them better ways to design some of the various products. I do like their approach to quality first and the price will be, what the price is. The buyer can decide if it is worth it to have the best. Their attention to detail is very good.

View attachment 668309

7mm/08 with Arken Optics LP-8 LPVO​

"POS Leupod"........wow.......

 

[HankBuck]

What does the study of birds have to do with objective lens size?

Kidding aside, if we look at the trends in scopes and their reticles, it’s not even a copy and paste from tactical to hunting optics. Take the mk12, which has been popular forever and is arguably responsible for more innovation and change for the AR platform than any other model. (Free floating hand guards, special purpose platforms, etc.) Many of the early iterations had simple(r) duplex reticles and there are reports of guys using their own hunting optics on deployments.

It’s an interesting observation that guys were using an upgraded platform (intended for use out to 700m~) to engage other dudes and were using what were (not always) essentially hunting optics to do so. Now we have hunting platforms trying to utilize tactical Christmas tree reticles to engage deer.

Knowing your holds and being familiar with your tools is important in both tactical and hunting situations. Speed is important in both settings for different reasons. Practice, practice, practice.

@Josh P - I gotta give your post a “Like” even if I can’t fully follow it because it sounds “really smart” and therefore over-my-head. You are either an Ornithologist, Ophthalmologist, or Gynecologist a Smart guy regardless and knows a lot about anything In-A-Bush

 

[Tucketed]

Google "swarovski family feud".. it gets covered occasionally by the European press, but hasn't caught much attention on this side of the pond.. you'll see a couple of articles published as early as late 2019 (pre covid) about disputes, arguments, etc among the family members.. and then by mid 2020 there's a lot of traction in the press as their disputes heat up.. with several more articles being published through 2024 as they start actually filing lawsuits in an attempt to get things resolved...

here's a few of the links I found interesting:

Family feud rages as Swarovski empire loses its lustre

“We are forced to reimagine and rescale our entire Swarovski business,” Buchbauer tells AFP at the Wattens HQ, framed by a selection of Swarovski-embellished robes.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

https://www.courthousenews.com/family-feud-rages-as-swarovski-empire-loses-its-luster/

Swarovski family at war over future of empire amid falling profits

Robert Buchbauer, CEO of Swarovski and the great-great gandson of its founder, wants to radically overhaul the company amid a torrid year that is due to see profits slump by 30 per cent.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Austria/Switzerland : Swarovski struggling with languid growth and lingering family conflict - 21/03/2024 - Glitz

Crystal jewellery giant Swarovski announced a tentative return to growth in 2023, but the company has not paid dividends to family shareholders for more than four years and is caught in the middle of - 3/21/2024

www.glitz.paris

one of my first takeaways when reading was that Swaro is a 2.5B Euro business.. and Swaro Optik represents less than 200M Euros of its total revenue.. while 200M Euros isn't chump change.. its a much smaller piece of the pie than I thought it would be..

That said, in the fine crystal industry, 2.5B isn't just big.. its massive... waterford crystal by comparison did about 9.5M in revenue last year.. baccarat did 313M... Daum Crystal did about 18M..

I can see why Swaro would be much more focused on their fine crystal business than their optik business.. they have an incredibly domineering position.. with limited global competition..

whereas on the optik side of the house, they're actually only an "big" sized player with a whole lot more competition out there.. Leupold did $271M last year.. Vortex did $79M.. nightforce did $23M.. etc..etc..

I have had the pleasure of spending time with Helmut Swarovski and my introduction to their optics were two binoculars he gifted me. He was the Chairman and also headed manufacturing. He loved/loves the optics side of the business. As an avid hunter he recognized the needs of the hunting community. He is one of the finest/smartest gentlemen I have met. He and his part of the family broke ranks when Swarovski hired a non family CEO who has since left. It’s surprising that during the tenure of this new CEO they didn’t sell off the Optics business and hopefully now get back to the roots of 10-15 years ago.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

They will never go after a military contract. I used to shoot for Kahles (a long time ago). I talked with our rep about Swarovski building a scope we could use in the prs. He said that would never happen. Essentially, they do not want their products used in a war.

Interesting. Looking for a reason for this antipathy I did some research. Daniel Swarovsky, the founder, was born near the present Czech boundary with Poland into a family of glass cutters and jewelers. The family name is clearly Polish. In the 1890s he patented a machine to mechanically polish crystal glass which revutionized the industry. Because the machinery required large amounts of electricity he relocated the business to eastern Austria to be near hydroelectric sources. After WWI he expanded into construction abrasives and cutting machinery when he founded Tyrolit, a large conglomerate still in business today. The first Swarovsky binoculars were produced in 1935, a curious advancement during the depth of the Depression. Presumably Swarovsky contributed significantly to Hitler's war effort with both industries. Curiously, Swarovsky company supposedly did not produce rifle scopes until 1950s (I seem to recall Leica made German military scopes for WWII?). But possibly made lenses for other military use (e.g. bomb sights, submarine telescopes, etc.). According to Wikipedia Daniel Swarovski was a member of the Nazi Party, which seems at odds with his Polish heritage. He retained control of the glass end of Swarovski until 1949 when his son took over. Perhaps the family is uncomfortable with the founder's Nazi affiliation and that is why they are now steering clear of anything associated with the military.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It appears outsiders also took over management of "family owned" Tyrolit Group in the last few years. Perhaps the fight is over losing control of the last vestige of Daniel Swarovsky's legendary business empire with the family name still attached. Sentimental?

Edit: Apologies for misspelling Swarovski's name. Continually. Dumb.

 

[Inline6]

Perhaps the family is uncomfortable with the founder's Nazi affiliation and that is why they are now steering clear of anything associated with the military.

You hit the nail on the head, that is the reason they will not pursue military contracts. They are still embarrassed about that to this day.

 

[Ruraldoc]

If you were in buisness in Nazi Germany/Austria, you had to join the Nazi Party or risk being labeled a traitor.

Even Oskar Schindler had to affiliate with the Nazi party.

Not everyone coerced into Nazi membeship was a Nazi at heart.

I'm sure the same thing is true about the Communist Chinese Party today.

 

[Dirtdart]

If you were a Leupold fan looking for a straight tube low powered variable suitable for a DG rifle with regular capped turrets, proper reticle, and no "golden bling" the VX-6HD 1-6 Patrol was it.

Swarovski is not the only manufacturer suffering from the affliction this thread is about. I just read a post by a member in the know that said Leupold has discontinued the above mentioned model.

 

[SaintPanzer]

They will never go after a military contract. I used to shoot for Kahles (a long time ago). I talked with our rep about Swarovski building a scope we could use in the prs. He said that would never happen. Essentially, they do not want their products used in a war.

Boy, they sure are going to be disappointed I took my binos with me to Afghanistan...

 

[ldmay375]

Last weekend I had a lengthy conversation with the region's swarovksi rep and we talked about a lot of different things, but basically the summary was nothing I want is available and they have no intention of making more of what I deemed fantastic. A few of the highlights of the conversation:

1.) My premise: The z6i 1-6x24mm EE was the finest optic ever made. They are selling for 200%-300% of original MSRP new in the box. Swarovski's position is nobody wanted them and they lose FOV, they believe FOV is the key trait. They stated "how much eye relief do you really need anyway?". My response was two fold, one that 5" allows you to scope large bore rifles and its literally the only one that exists. I don't enjoy close scopes on 458Lott and up rifles. My second point was that for stalking rifles, it gave the opportunity to come up for a snap shot like a shotgun, rather than seeking for good eye relief that introduces hesitation. They politely disagreed. They said if I bought 1500 of them, roughly $3.3m USD, they'd make me anything I want. I asked for a practical number minimum order and I'd maybe do just that, but they wouldn't give me a reasonable number. They did mention they sold some sort of rail mount scope in the USA and literally sold 4 units of them, but they didn't want to make another EE.

2.) My second topic was that the 3-9x36mm z3 was a bargain and perfect for stalking rifles at <$700 for a great optic. The weight and size allowed low rings and was appropriate for kipplaufs, falling blocks, and lightweight bolt guns. Their response was the 42mm is barely bigger, so they are just sticking with that one.

3.) My third point was that we were standing next to a rack of London made safari rifles worth about $400,000. For those rifles, people take pride in traditional rings and a low or extra low ring that brings the sight picture in line with the stock geometry and iron sights. That means a scope like the z8i 1-8x24mm with the 30mm tube should be brought back, because aesthetically and functionally people spending premium money on safari and stalking rifles do not want 34mm rings, nor do they want the extra height, nor do they want to use hideously ugly tactical rings. You really have very few options in fine gun rings in 34mm whereas there is a plethora of rings for the 1" and 30mm offerings that are appropriate for Rigbys, Dakotas, and all the other typical safari rifles. Swarovski's answer was that I should just buy ugly 34mm rings, or I could pay $5500-$8000 and have someone like Rigby or Holland build new custom 34mm rings and mounts to accomodate their new tube sizes rather than offering an industry standard 30mm scope appropriate for the task. Another lovely scope option now discontinued.

4.) My fourth question was "what happened to the Kahles Helia lineup?" because they had nice small bells for stalking rifles, or they had straight tube 4x and 5x options for double rifles, drillings, kipplaufs, etc. Their response was they are still made for the EU market because Vortex and Leupold do not have a presence, but they are no longer imported to the USA. I asked if I bought them in the EU, would they support them for repairs? The answer is no, it would be deemed gray market.

I'm being told that the market doesn't demand what I like and that I'm in the minority. Maybe that's correct, but Swarovski also spent decades building a reputation as a true hunter's optic company. The brochures would show old gentleman hunting chamois with kipplaufs, trachten jackets, tyrollian hats on their heads. It suggested quality and tradition, that was their reputation. They no longer make the products that are compatible with the lifestyles and firearms they loved to feature in their ad copy of the past ten years, now showing bench rest plastic rifles and gigantic glass in their ad copy.

I suggested they cannibalized their own market, too many SKUs, reticles, illuminations, and that dilution resulted in too few units sold of these storied products. They also didn't offer the lineup above to the right dealers, the bespoke makers and the Dakota/Rigby/et al dealers that know how to use the right rings, mounts, and optics for the tasks at hand. They remained unpersuaded and closed the conversation showing me their new Western Hunter long-range scope with ballistic turrets for shooting elk at 700 yards. Clearly, they are selling into the sniper and long range hunter industry where every other brand has a large presence as well.

I'm not here to shoot the messenger, Swarovski has the right to do whatever they wish, I'm just saddened that the best optic company in the world has discontinued 100% of the optics that I have come to love over the past 20 years. I honestly think part of the problem is most dealers in fine rifles don't even understand stock-to-optic fit so they aren't advocating for what is proper and correct for their rifles either.

Any way you slice it, Swarovski has products that are now directly in line with Vortex, Leupold, and Nightforce but none of the useful outliers that they were known for over the past many decades.

I have a few Swarovski and Kahles products that I really like. The 1.7-10x42 Plex gen2, the 1-6x24 EE illuminated, and the normal eye relief 1-6x24's illuminated and non-illuminated.
The Kahles Helia C non-illuminated 1.1-4x24 and 1.5-6x42 are still some of my favorites. Simple 1st Focal reticles that I like.

 

[Muskox]

A large amount of roe deer I shoot is in this conditions. As a lot of fellow Europeans do.

You need to understand European hunting more before you make statements like this because it shows that you are not well informed on the matter.

And that is no shame. There are a lot of things I do not know enough about. Difference is that I shut my mouth and listen to those who do.

We pretty much kill everything the last 5-10 minutes of the day in absolute fading twilight.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

"POS Leupold"........wow.......

Lol, perhaps that was a tad harsh. The 3-9x Leupold was a VXII and is really not that great. At one time it was their best. Most of the newer Leupold top tier products are significantly better.

The one I started with on the 375 was their bottom tier scope. VX-Freedom. Retails for about $299. I guess I was expecting more from it. It was fully functional and had pretty decent turrets. I loved the reticle and plan to put in onto one of my squirrel rifles on which it will serve well. I just found it to be insufficient for my big game needs and since we were also going to be hunting some at night, I elected to shift to an illuminated optic and rather than fool around with Leupold, I switched to the Euro option only because I had the chance to bid on two scopes in an auction and won them both for <1/2 value. They were sold as used but turned out to be NIB which was a pleasant surprise.

The VX6 is in a whole other class and is a top tier optic. I did not intend to denigrate all of the Leupold line.

 

[WAB]

We pretty much kill everything the last 5-10 minutes of the day in absolute fading twilight.

That is pretty normal for us too.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If you were in buisness in Nazi Germany/Austria, you had to join the Nazi Party or risk being labeled a traitor.

Even Oskar Schindler had to affiliate with the Nazi party.

Not everyone coerced into Nazi membeship was a Nazi at heart.

I'm sure the same thing is true about the Communist Chinese Party today.

I think it is remarkable that an ethic Pole would even be allowed to join the Nazi Party. His industry was vital to the war effort. Hitler wasn't going to mess with the operation unless he had to. Other industrialists who were cool to the Nazis still did business with the govt without being members of the party. I seem to recall a couple who actually kept more Jewish slave laborers than they needed just to keep them from extermination.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I think it is remarkable that an ethic Pole would even be allowed to join the Nazi Party. His industry was vital to the war effort. Hitler wasn't going to mess with the operation unless he had to. Other industrialists who were cool to the Nazis still did business with the govt without being members of the party. I seem to recall a couple who actually kept more Jewish slave laborers than they needed just to keep them from extermination.

Ernst Leitz of Leika [LEItz KAmera] is an example. Though opposed to war, he joined the Nazi Party to avoid nationalization of his company. By keeping control of his company, Leitz was able to smuggle Jewish employees out of the country as job transfers. Eventually the scheme was uncovered but Leitz was too valuable to be disposed of. His employees were too deeply devoted to him. Leica was one of the first German companies to have 8 hr work day and medical benefits. To keep him in line, his daughter was tossed in a concentration camp. Leitz kept a low profile during and after the war. Never told his grandson anything. His efforts to save Jews did not come to light until after his death.

 

[Ruraldoc]

We pretty much kill everything the last 5-10 minutes of the day in absolute fading twilight.

That descibes hunting in Alabama and Mississippi for deer and hogs perfectly.