Blood Lions: Blowing The Lid Off The Canned Hunting Industry

[Billcollector]

The truth is people like you wanna justify and claim that the lions are wild and would attack a humam more so than a truly wild lion. Its funny armerians like you claiming to have so much knowlege about hunting and how animals are suppose to be hunted truth is, you dont know how old those lions are probably being fed bait and they dnt knw how to hunt. Take a look at home many lions hartzview take a year? Please its all about turn over and how many hunts they can sell and claim its for converation! Please raising an animal for the sole purpsose of it being shot is not hunting neither is it somthing l would be proud to boost about. The reason that Tanzanian lion are so expensive is because you are hunting a real lion not some show trophy to show off to your American friends and claim it was so wild when you shot it unknowingly eating a piece of meat you put the there. You are not helping conversation by giving the same people money to carry one this slaughter of african wildlife shame on you and anyone who promotes this type of shooting.

I agree that there is not much of a conservation value to hunting captive bred lions. It is a business. It's all about supply and demand. It's too expensive to hunt true wild lions for most hunters out there. The outfitter gets to make money and the hunter is thrilled to have the opportunity. This is Capitalism at its finest. It's a win, win. Everyone is happy! So..what's wrong with that?

Now....we can talk about all the differences of hunting a wild lion while hiding in a blind and watching over a bait vs. stalking on foot etc. However, let's talk about the conservation impact on hunting in the wild. Tanzania has the largest population of wild lion in the world and is also the most expensive with a successful trip costing about 80k. So where does all that money go to? Corruption and lack of effort have resulted in the decimation of the elephant population in Tanzania and Moz. Conservation is being funded but not utilized. The continued human encroachment on lion populations continues to shrink their habitats and put them at risk. How is that quagmire sustainable?

Finally, let's talk frankly about us Americans. If it was not for us Americans, All of Africa would be poached out, there would be no hunting at all and you could take some pictures of the last remaining animals in a few National parks. Who do you think pays for all the conservation and wildlife programs through hunting in Africa? Places that you like to hunt? American dollars pay for more than 90% of all African hunting, keep outfitters in business, keep the land protected and the animals producing for sustainable harvest. Think you could do that with a few Saudi Princes, a couple of Russians? How long would it take the Chinese to destroy all the wild land in search of minerals and ore? So..next time you are out hunting wild Africa, you might want to thank us Americans for providing you the opportunity to exercise your passion with our dollars, instead of biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[gizmo]

The truth is people like you wanna justify and claim that the lions are wild and would attack a humam more so than a truly wild lion. Its funny armerians like you claiming to have so much knowlege about hunting and how animals are suppose to be hunted truth is, you dont know how old those lions are probably being fed bait and they dnt knw how to hunt. Take a look at home many lions hartzview take a year? Please its all about turn over and how many hunts they can sell and claim its for converation! Please raising an animal for the sole purpsose of it being shot is not hunting neither is it somthing l would be proud to boost about. The reason that Tanzanian lion are so expensive is because you are hunting a real lion not some show trophy to show off to your American friends and claim it was so wild when you shot it unknowingly eating a piece of meat you put the there. You are not helping conversation by giving the same people money to carry one this slaughter of african wildlife shame on you and anyone who promotes this type of shooting.

First off new guy you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I may not agree with it but you are entitled to have it. Now, that being said if you wish to post your opinion you need to do it under an appropriate thread and NOT PISS ALL OVER a sponser outfitters hunt offer. It is in extremely bad taste and very very looked down upon around here. There is a current post about this very issue going on right now that you could have posted this rant in. This is a gentleman's forum and this is very ungentlemanly to do this. If you can't abide by these rules perhaps you should find a different website to troll.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

I will not say any more for fear of my post being deleted from this forum as has happened.

Jabulani, One of your post was deleted as you did not respect the rules of posting. As it was said to you via PM, if you want to talk about your views on Lion hunting in South Africa please do so where appropriate but don't just go off inside an offer.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

See attached: "SAMPEO's STANCE ON CAPTIVE BRED / CANNED LION HUNTING"

 

[Scott Slough]

100% support SAMPEO's position on captive bred hunting of lions! Thanks for posting!

 

[BRICKBURN]

....................... if you want to talk about your views on Lion hunting in South Africa please do so where appropriate but don't just go off inside an offer.

As I just did with Masuza's post.

 

[Adrian]

The SAMPEO stance is absolutely correct. I fail to see how an ethical hunter can argue with it.

Unfortunately where someone stands to make money, it will continue.

 

[Code4]

Each to their own. Billcollector has it about right. Supply and demand. Some sell product, some sell an experience. All tastes are catered for in a free market.

I speak for myself only .... whenever I hear someone say they hunted a lion in South Africa and sound proud of it, I immediately suspect everything else about them and my trust factor in that individual falls to near zero. There are naive consumers out there who are uninformed and also consumers who don't give a toss about conservation. ( as this is a commercial forum I maybe running close to the mark ) There are also providors out there who will not exactly tell the whole story in regard to the product they sell. It will be a cold day in hell before I believe someone trying to sell me something, telling me it is good value before I education myself.

At the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing by yourself.

 

[billc]

Just looks like 7 outfitters who think very highly of themselves and act like no one else is doing great hunts in SA. More then likely figure it was a good angle to take to try and get more business.

Each there own I guess. For those that like to judge others by the way they hunt That is your right to do so. I will just fight to keep my rights to do the hunts I want also.

 

[Hank2211]

Each to their own. Billcollector has it about right. Supply and demand. Some sell product, some sell an experience. All tastes are catered for in a free market.

I speak for myself only .... whenever I hear someone say they hunted a lion in South Africa and sound proud of it, I immediately suspect everything else about them and my trust factor in that individual falls to near zero. There are naive consumers out there who are uninformed and also consumers who don't give a toss about conservation. ( as this is a commercial forum I maybe running close to the mark ) There are also providors out there who will not exactly tell the whole story in regard to the product they sell. It will be a cold day in hell before I believe someone trying to sell me something, telling me it is good value before I education myself.

At the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing by yourself.

Seriously? You don't know a thing about me, but all you need to know is that I hunted a lion in South Africa, and thus I'm not to be trusted!

I now know what I need in life. I need to pick one action, and then I can decide who is on the side of the Angels and who is not worth knowing. If only I'd known when I was younger. Imagine all the people I could have safely ignored. Instead, stupid me, I actually spent some time getting to know people before making snap judgments. So much wasted time.

This thread has begun to reek of hypocrisy.

 

[gizmo]

Each to their own. Billcollector has it about right. Supply and demand. Some sell product, some sell an experience. All tastes are catered for in a free market.

I speak for myself only .... whenever I hear someone say they hunted a lion in South Africa and sound proud of it, I immediately suspect everything else about them and my trust factor in that individual falls to near zero. There are naive consumers out there who are uninformed and also consumers who don't give a toss about conservation. ( as this is a commercial forum I maybe running close to the mark ) There are also providors out there who will not exactly tell the whole story in regard to the product they sell. It will be a cold day in hell before I believe someone trying to sell me something, telling me it is good value before I education myself.

At the end of the day you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing by yourself.

Well I'll tell ya what. I hunted lion in SA and I'm damn proud of it. What's that say about me. An assumption based on what you believe may or may not have happened is ridiculous. It is this sort of statement , "when I hear someone did blah blah, that makes me suspect them of being dishonest, unethical, etc...." where I draw the line. That's ignorant period. Unless one was there with me and knew where I hunted and the circumstances I hunted in one has NO right to judge me based on this.
Second those throwing the biggest fit over this do so with limited to NO knowledge of what in the hell they are talking about.
Canned hunts are illegal in RSA. A released lion hunt through a reputable outfitter is not a canned hunt.
Drugging or injuring a animal before a hunt to even the odds is both illegal and grossly unethical, again not what we are talking about here. Just because so in so did this onetime because a friend of a guy who was there said so is generally A. a bullshit story or B. Illegal and should have been prosecuted for it.
My hunt was conducted in an absolutely fair chase circumstance with a real lion that no one had doped or injured. It took many miles of tracking and the danger was VERY real.
Do unethical and illegal things happen from time to time yes, as they do in any walk of life. Those who bring shame in this area should be diligently hunted down and prosecuted for their acts.
Furthermore, to do a lion hunt in SA a very strict set of rules apply, it MUST be done in a fair chase circumstance by law and you must read and sign a contract agree to this. If violation of these rules occurred then you are subject to prosecution. I KNOW IVE DONE IT AND HAD TO SIGN THE CONTRACT. It spells out exactly what can and can't be done. Every opportunity is there for the animal to escape and or kill you.
During my lion hunt there was most assuredly more than one lion, they most assuredly hunted and killed there own food, they had been there quite a long while, and damn sure would stalk you and eat you if given the chance. We had lions stalking us not only during the lion hunt but the Cape buffalo hunt as well.
Conservation, to say it has no role in conservation is untrue. First, it provides an economic value to the animal. Animals with out such, especially ones like lions who compete with and will eat man, will go extinct. Why the hell do you think there are so few to begin with, they sure as shit didn't commit mass suicide.
Second, it provides valuable income that is put back into conservation of all species.
Third, it takes pressure off of wild lion populations which aren't doing so hot at the current moment. I'd rather see a raised lion shot than a immature wild lion killed or a mature pride lion killed. When a pride is taken over by another lion all the Cubs are KILLED so that lion can ensure the survival of his genes. That is a scientific fact.
Many have been quick to judge and throw opinions. People are certainly entitled to there opinions but do yourself a favor and at least know something about what you are talking about! Is SA lion hunting for everyone, perhaps not. Does it make me unethical and dishonest because I do, no it doesn't and your a fool if you think it does. We are all in agreement that shooting a lion in a pen or one that is drugged is wrong. That is NOT the issue nor is it what a SA lion hunt is about. Know the facts it keeps one from looking like a fool.

 

[gizmo]

Normally I wouldn't get in the middle of this but it's really pissing me off and the hypocrisy, as so accurately stated by @Hank2211, is completely ridiculous.
Furthermore, for those who are saying these aren't real lions I'll tell ya what. Put your money where your mouth is and go to where I hunted my lion and try and pet one. Hell I'll be glad to go along to video someone getting eaten for being an idiot. It would do miles for proving our point anyway.
I can also garuantee you that the lion that nailed Rinehard was no push over. We have all seen the video. Which by the way was a SA lion who charged unprovoked. These are not big furry pets bred for evil hunter to go massacre. These are lions and they are damn dangerous inside or out of a fence. Not to mention these SA lions have very little if any fear of man which makes them that much more dangerous. It appauls me that people would judge others because they hunted a lion in SA. For what that's worth 90% of all hunting in SA is behind a fence yet many have hunted plains game in this same way but it's OK then. Funny how things are only bad when it's convienant for them.
This is also the same mentality of judging someone by their race, sex, or religious preferences. To say someone is unethical or dishonest just because they have hunted something in a particular place. Give me a break.

 

[Saul]

Well I'll tell ya what. I hunted lion in SA and I'm damn proud of it. What's that say about me. An assumption based on what you believe may or may not have happened is ridiculous. It is this sort of statement , "when I hear someone did blah blah, that makes me suspect them of being dishonest, unethical, etc...." where I draw the line. That's ignorant period. Unless one was there with me and knew where I hunted and the circumstances I hunted in one has NO right to judge me based on this.
Second those throwing the biggest fit over this do so with limited to NO knowledge of what in the hell they are talking about.
Canned hunts are illegal in RSA. A released lion hunt through a reputable outfitter is not a canned hunt.
Drugging or injuring a animal before a hunt to even the odds is both illegal and grossly unethical, again not what we are talking about here. Just because so in so did this onetime because a friend of a guy who was there said so is generally A. a bullshit story or B. Illegal and should have been prosecuted for it.
My hunt was conducted in an absolutely fair chase circumstance with a real lion that no one had doped or injured. It took many miles of tracking and the danger was VERY real.
Do unethical and illegal things happen from time to time yes, as they do in any walk of life. Those who bring shame in this area should be diligently hunted down and prosecuted for their acts.
Furthermore, to do a lion hunt in SA a very strict set of rules apply, it MUST be done in a fair chase circumstance by law and you must read and sign a contract agree to this. If violation of these rules occurred then you are subject to prosecution. I KNOW IVE DONE IT AND HAD TO SIGN THE CONTRACT. It spells out exactly what can and can't be done. Every opportunity is there for the animal to escape and or kill you.
During my lion hunt there was most assuredly more than one lion, they most assuredly hunted and killed there own food, they had been there quite a long while, and damn sure would stalk you and eat you if given the chance. We had lions stalking us not only during the lion hunt but the Cape buffalo hunt as well.
Conservation, to say it has no role in conservation is untrue. First, it provides an economic value to the animal. Animals with out such, especially ones like lions who compete with and will eat man, will go extinct. Why the hell do you think there are so few to begin with, they sure as shit didn't commit mass suicide.
Second, it provides valuable income that is put back into conservation of all species.
Third, it takes pressure off of wild lion populations which aren't doing so hot at the current moment. I'd rather see a raised lion shot than a immature wild lion killed or a mature pride lion killed. When a pride is taken over by another lion all the Cubs are KILLED so that lion can ensure the survival of his genes. That is a scientific fact.
Many have been quick to judge and throw opinions. People are certainly entitled to there opinions but do yourself a favor and at least know something about what you are talking about! Is SA lion hunting for everyone, perhaps not. Does it make me unethical and dishonest because I do, no it doesn't and your a fool if you think it does. We are all in agreement that shooting a lion in a pen or one that is drugged is wrong. That is NOT the issue nor is it what a SA lion hunt is about. Know the facts it keeps one from looking like a fool.

While hunting captive bred animals isn't my bag, I can certainly see the benefits of doing so for endangered species. As you pointed out, it takes the stress off of the wild lion population. I would have far less qualms about hunting lion in SA if the lion in question was released early in life and not just prior to the hunt. I don't see why it isn't possible to breed lions and then release them when they are able to survive into the wild as a way to let them grow up wild and add to the lion population. Then again, I am not a lion raising expert. I also did not know that killing an old male lion would result in hurting the pride. I was under the impression that once a male lion becomes old, he is driven from the pride and is only a burden on the environment, sort of like rhinos. If this is not true, then I will seriously reconsider my plan of hunting a wild lion.

 

[gizmo]

Yes Saul it is extremely common for the new pride lion to kill all of the Cubs of the previous lion. It's just natures way I guess.

 

[gizmo]

Saul, also many places do release lions for long times in advance to being hunted. There is a legal amount of time that they must be there before they can be hunted anyway. From my understanding that number can vary. This is where research and an honest outfitter makes the difference. reputable outfitters and communication makes all the difference in the hunting world. This was a concern of mine before I did it. I voiced my concerns and made it clear what I was and wasn't willing to do. My outfitter made sure it was done the way I wanted it. It wasn't any big deal because my requirements were the way my ph operated day to day anyway as he is an ethical and morally upstanding guy. I wanted a real lion hunt on a wild lion on a place of sufficient size to make it ethical and sporting. That is exactly what I got. Yes if one was to drive the car far enough they would eventually hit a fence but it had absolutely no play in the hunt. The place was enormous.
I'm not telling you this to try and talk you into doing it, I just want you to know very little of the bs posted here about "canned" hunts is in fact truth. People have the right to their opinion and what's good for me may not be for you. That's fine and is the way it should be, differences in opinions makes the world a great place. Bad things have happened in the past yes and occasionally today. It is no longer tolerated and very illegal to do a canned lion hunt. This is a good thing. Comparing these canned hunts to 99.99999% of SA lion hunts are comparing apples to truck tires. Thank you for your open minded approach to listening to both sides and not just the feel good emotional side.

 

[billc]

Gizmo you mean because cousin johnny who told uncle dave he heard from Ph bob who told ph ron he knows the hunt went done wrong I should not believe them. I mean all because I was not there it must still be true they said so. I mean it was only ten years ago so I am sure the story is the same and true for sure. I dont need to do the hunt to know the facts I will just take there word ok.

 

[gizmo]

Exactly

 

[billc]

I just need to find the words to tell dakota he is not really a hunter because he hunted a raised lion. Man if I just would have booked that zim lion and hunted that bait pile instead he could still be patting himself on the back as one of the great hunters who so like to judge others.

 

[bluey]

saul, its my understanding that , when the alfa male is driven from the pride , all his male cubs are killed , by the new number one male .
as he will see all females as future mates .......

im also of the belief that zebra herds ,go through the same thing.....

 

[Hank2211]

saul, its my understanding that , when the alfa male is driven from the pride , all his male cubs are killed , by the new number one male .
as he will see all females as future mates .......

im also of the belief that zebra herds ,go through the same thing.....

Saul mentioned "old male lion". An old male may indeed have been kicked out of a pride, in which case killing him has no effect on pride dynamics. Any competent or even semi-competent PH can distinguish a pride male from one which is not.