Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

[Royal27]

To each his own,some kill,some hunt and some criticise.
Teaching a child to shoot is anyone's right,teaching a child to hunt and respect the game they persue is a privilege.
Anyone can punch holes in any type of hunting if they wish to do so,like just about anything else if you do not do it,grew up with it or have a natural orientation towards it,it won't make sense.

Exactly....

Like who would want to play cricket or soccer instead of American Football? How silly is that???

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

In the video above the professional hunter says the kill is the easiest part, and the other person mentions a 7 year old child who killed a warthog.



But the vast majority of people who live in cities do not enjoy it. Most people don't feel the need to hunt animals, and don't enjoy watching animals die. Most people today don't want to kill animals; that's why we have automated slaughter houses. We enjoy the meat but don't personally want to inflict pain to the animals (at least most of us don't). Sure, every human used to hunt and gather to survive, but now people don't need to do that.

Therefore it can be concluded that, for some reason, only some people still want to hunt/kill. I tried to ask why, and tried to construct a logical reason on why photography is very similar to hunting (excluding the killing), and therefore the killing part must have some special significance to you.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm trying to find the underlying reason for why some people enjoy killing. That's what I mean when I try to get in the mind of a hunter.

If we "enjoyed" the killing (as you put it), then we would all be working at slaughter houses.......for free. I don't think anyone "enjoys" watching an animal die. Pulling a trigger or releasing a string is NOT the same as clicking the shutter on a camera.....there is a finality to it that, if properly completed, means that you've done your hunt (not kill) well. Also, there are those of us who enjoy eating the meat from the animals that we hunted; it's akin to growing your own vegetables.............you can get 'em in cans or at the grocery store cheaper and with less hassle, but they don't taste the same..not by a long shot.
You say people today don't want to kill animals, and that's why we have slaughter houses.........Have you ever been to a slaughter house? Obviously not, and neither have most of the people who think that their meat comes on styrofoam and wrapped neatly in plastic, and that hunting is "unnecessary"......because hunting is a LOT quicker and cleaner!!! While a prevet student at the University, I was required to judge both live animals and carcasses after slaughter, and I can tell you that kills I have made hunter were a lot quicker and cleaner that some of those that I witnessed in a slaughter house. You say 'they enjoy eating meat, but don't want to to inflict pain on the animals'. So basically you are telling me that they are a bunch of cowards & hypocrites that have to have someone else do their dirty work for them? And you are going to criticize what I do? That's pretty nervy...............

The people who live in cities who "don't enjoy it".....maybe it's because of distorted views promoted by the antihunters? Maybe it's because of "political correctness"? Maybe it's because of the high moral tone people such as yourself take in your posts? .....or maybe it's because they have just never had the opportunity?

As for "no need to hunt anymore".......those pictures that Royal posted of the duikers taught you nothing? Do you see any Piggly-Wiggly's in those photographs????? There are a lot of people in rural American that wouldn't have "meat" unless they went out and shot it.......we have poverty in this country as well, and I just love how the antis will do everything in their power to prevent donations of venison and other game meat to food banks in the city, citing BS such as "health concerns", when we all know what the real agenda is (hint: it's political and has nothing to do with human safety concerns).

As far as I am concerned, you aren't here to learn......just to argue (and judge, even though you claim you aren't, but your "high horse" attitude kinda gives it away). If something were to happen to your local grocery store, and they ran out of meat for some reason, I sure hope salt makes your camera film palatable.

I am done with this thread, and CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!...............you are the first person on my "ignore" list!

 

[Vevew]

the words "enjoy killing" were taken from the video I posted. A professional hunter said those words.
But let's leave it at that. This thread is over.

 

[Foxi]

Vevew,
I hunted in Gwaai River Section last year.35 km northern from the boundary of Hangwe NP.
Its not true,that you can hunt exactly on the border line to the Nationalpark.
There is the park,than a big pumper zone(Sikumi Forest) and than the huntingzones.
I understand that you feel sad about Cecils destiny.He reminds us at the lion Clarence from the TV Series Daktari.
Make the lion population destiny not fix on the life of one old male.
I know, all hunting animals are strictly quoted there by the National Park Management of Hangwe.
From Duiker to Elephant.
And the real problems for the lions to survive out of the park are complete different.
Hunters have a control function in the bush.Help God the animals when they have to go.
Look below and I'm sure you know what I mean.
Greetings
Foxi

 

[Big5]

. . . . As a non-hunter it is very difficult to get in the mind of a hunter. Can any of you explain why you enjoy it? And tell which is more important; that you get to fire the killing bullet/arrow or that you get to keep the trophy?

I was at a barbeque once when reprimanded by someone who believed hunting and the killing of animals was an appalling act. During that scolding session he tore a drumstick from a roasted chicken and began shaking it at me for added emphasis . . . . he obviously not only enjoys roasted chicken but also having others do the killing for him.

I often wonder what was more important to him, the slitting of the chicken's throat, the plucking and packaging of the chicken, or the 'trophy drumstick'.

 

[Royal27]

I was at a barbeque once when reprimanded by someone who believed hunting and the killing of animals was an appalling act. During that scolding session he tore a drumstick from a roasted chicken and began shaking it at me for added emphasis . . . . he obviously not only enjoys roasted chicken but also having others do the killing for him.

I often wonder what was more important to him, the slitting of the chicken's throat, the plucking and packaging of the chicken, or the 'trophy drumstick'.

I wonder if the chicken was free range, or farm raised?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I was at a barbeque once when reprimanded by someone who believed hunting and the killing of animals was an appalling act. During that scolding session he tore a drumstick from a roasted chicken and began shaking it at me for added emphasis . . . . he obviously not only enjoys roasted chicken but also having others do the killing for him.

I often wonder what was more important to him, the slitting of the chicken's throat, the plucking and packaging of the chicken, or the 'trophy drumstick'.

So how silly did this guy look walking around with that drumstick stuck in his ear?

 

[Big5]

Actually, I turned to walk away and it somehow got caught in his throat. Not sure how that happened . . . but a few painfully strong Heimlich thrusts shot it out and across the yard.

 

[Deleted member 15212]

In the video above the professional hunter says the kill is the easiest part, and the other person mentions a 7 year old child who killed a warthog.



But the vast majority of people who live in cities do not enjoy it. Most people don't feel the need to hunt animals, and don't enjoy watching animals die. Most people today don't want to kill animals; that's why we have automated slaughter houses. We enjoy the meat but don't personally want to inflict pain to the animals (at least most of us don't). Sure, every human used to hunt and gather to survive, but now people don't need to do that.

Therefore it can be concluded that, for some reason, only some people still want to hunt/kill. I tried to ask why, and tried to construct a logical reason on why photography is very similar to hunting (excluding the killing), and therefore the killing part must have some special significance to you.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm trying to find the underlying reason for why some people enjoy killing. That's what I mean when I try to get in the mind of a hunter.

well, as a 28 year old person born and raised in one of the biggest cities in the country, Los Angeles, actually I live in a suburb called Lakewood... but anyway... I do enjoy hunting. I enjoy getting out of this concrete jungle. I enjoy the outdoors and everything it has to offer. I enjoy the experience of new terrain, cultures, smells, sights and even sounds!

though I am a small percentage of people who do hunt in my area, im still a percentage! nobody enjoys watching animals die. and ill say it again as many have mentioned, its not about the killing, as you like to put it. we don't set out to intentionally inflict pain to the animals.. that is why we spend countless hours and even years perfecting our skills in shooting and stalking, to make the most ethical, humane and painless shot we can. cause if it was killing it would be easy. and its really not. its hunting and its never guaranteed! if it was, I would have a lot more animals in my house.

you cant, and wont ever get into the mind of a hunter simply because you are not us so you will never understand it. and that's what most non/anti hunters and ARAs don't get. except they are the ones always questioning our ways and our lifestyle. yet, when have you ever seen hunters trying to force others to harvest game?? NEVER! when have you ever seen or heard of hunters threatening the life of the hunter and their family only because they choose a different lifestyle? NEVER!

in hunting, its not always about the NEED for it to survive, but sometimes it is. are you going to tell the people in remote areas whose way of life is subsidized by hunting that they don't NEED to hunt to survive?? id like to see how they react to a picture of a deer for dinner. are you going to purchase and fly in groceries for them or buy them a house in the city and give them a job? then again, they probably don't need that either..

just because a seven year old has taken a warthog with a crossbow means nothing. all you see is that a young kid took an animal so it must be easy! but you don't see the time it took for that warthog to come in and the patience it took for that warthog to present the perfect shot. you don't see the practice taken to be confident enough to take a shot with a crossbow. of course an adult will think its easy. would you sit out an entire day waiting for something that might not happen? and if you did, and nothing happened, would you still be happy about how your day played out?? probably not, because youre so focused on the "killing" when we are not.

ive been to two different states and another country for a total of a months time, thousands of dollars spent to still come home not having taken the animal I was in pursuit of and I was happy with it because I still gained experience and an adventure!

thanks for reading my rambling.

http://www.outsideonline.com/186933...k&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost

here is a great video. click on the big picture to play.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I honestly can't describe it. It is something that is just in us. It is a passion and it is bigger then just me. It is a calling. There are days I just take pictures of the deer or ducks that come on. But it is the challenge, I spend 100s of hours researching and learning and studying and memorizing everything about an animal. My first bear took me 3 years, but the moment it all came together seemed like the biggest accomplishment of my life. I had seen him before and can show you 30 plus pictures of him. But he knew me and I knew him. And in all honesty I prayed for that bear and he will always be something special to me. I am rambling here but it is just something bigger then all of us. I hope that vevew and others of you on that side of the fence can appreciate it. I don't know if you will ever understand it but I would love the opportunity to talk to about it, and even have you come hunting me. I think you will understand a little (though you will probably still disagree)

Vevew, I hope you feel I'm not picking on you because I think you being here and voicing your concerns and keeping an open mind makes you a pretty big man. I think being on AH, you will get a sense of the great and ethical hunters we are all and that we in the end want to see these animals around for thousands of years.

 

[Adrian]

Some interesting viewpoints raised here.

Just to add my 0.2 cents, I am the only person in my family that hunts. No-one as far as I am aware has hunted in any capacity so why has hunting been such a huge part of my life since I was about ten years of age?

I could never work in an abattoir or slaughterhouse and kill animals in volume on a daily basis. I don't enjoy killing and to be truthful, after hunting, killing, butchering and eating the fruits of my pastime, there is no other meat I would rather eat and no other decent way to get it.

So why am I an anomaly in my family and why do I hunt animals and kill them if I don't enjoy it?

It's far more than an anti hunter can comprehend. Some people enjoy things I don't see the point of doing but I have no right to criticise them and how they lead their lives.
Why should we, as hunters, be constantly called to question our activities which are legal? Any illegal hunting and poor ethics are, on the whole condemned by the hunting fraternity.

So, hunting is something that is within an individual. We all do it for our own reasons and do it in a way that falls within our own, self set ethics. The rules are there to set boundaries but we all abide by our own code which might vary between individuals but as long as it's within the law, we shouldn't judge each other and more importantly shouldn't be judged by those who don't understand.

 

[Diamondhitch]

...Gee, antis..........hows about just banning all "lying" instead?...

Lol

If these guys were poaching, I say string em up. If this is an anti-hunting publicity stunt, I say string em up. If this was a legal hunt, I say shut up.

 

[spike.t]

ROYAL SAID: I haven't watched the video yet, but I will as soon as I get a minute.

And that minute won't be soon as I have him occupied on Whatsapp
LOL

Ahhhhhh young love........

 

[James.Grage]

Posted: July 27, 2015

EXTRACT FROM THE FOLLOWING THIRD PARTY SOURCE: Written by
Stephen Burgen for The Guardian

Authorities in Zimbabwe are trying track down a Spaniard who allegedly paid park guides €50,000 (£35,000) for the chance to kill Cecil, one of Africa’s most famous lions, who was the star attraction at the Hwange National Park. The lion was found skinned and headless on the outskirts of the park.


Cecil the lion in Hwange, Zimbabwe. © Bryan Orford/YouTube

The 13-year-old lion was wearing a GPS collar as part of a research project that Oxford University has been running since 1999, making it possible to trace its last movements when it was tricked into leaving the park and shot with a bow and arrow. The hunters then tracked the dying animal for 40 hours before they killed it with a rifle.

Bait, in the form of a freshly killed animal, was used to tempt Cecil out of the park, a technique commonly used so that hunters can “legally” kill protected lions.

“Cecil’s death is a tragedy, not only because he was a symbol of Zimbabwe but because now we have to give up for dead his six cubs, as a new male won’t allow them to live so as to encourage Cecil’s three females to mate,” said Johnny Rodrigues, head of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force. “The two people who accompanied the hunter have been arrested but we haven’t yet tracked down the hunter, who is Spanish.”

The Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association admitted that its members were involved and that the case was being investigated. It claims it was a private safari and, therefore, not illegal, but the government insists that the lion lived on the reserve and came under its protection.

The Oxford University study was looking into the impact of sports hunting on lions living in the safari area surrounding the national park. The research found that 34 of 62 tagged lions died during the study period. 24 were shot by sport hunters. Sport hunters in the safari areas surrounding the park killed 72% of tagged adult males from the study area.

Dr Andrew Loveridge, one of the principal researchers on the project, said that “hunting predators on the boundaries of national parks such as Hwange causes significant disturbance and knock-on effects” such as infanticide when new males enter the prides.

Police are seeking the lion’s remains among the country’s taxidermists. The Spanish conservation organisation Chelui4lions has written to CITES de España, the body that oversees the import of endangered species, asking it to prevent the importing of Cecil’s head as a trophy.

“From 2007 to 2012 Spain was the country that imported the most lion trophies from South Africa. During this period it imported 450 heads, compared to 100 in Germany. Europe needs to ban these lion hunting trophies altogether,” said Luis Muñoz, a Chelui4lions spokesman.

“What hunter, what sort of demented person, would want to kill a magnificent adult lion, known to and photographed by all the park’s visitors?” Muñoz said. “We’re ashamed of the fact that in Spain there are rich madmen who pay for the pleasure of killing wild animals such as lions.”

Bryan Orford, a professional wildlife guide who has worked in Hwange and filmed Cecil many times, said that the lion was the park’s “biggest tourist attraction”. Orford calculates that with tourists from just one nearby lodge collectively paying €8,000 per day, Zimbabwe would have brought in more in just five days by having Cecil’s photograph taken rather than being shot by someone paying a one-off fee of €50,000.

The incident, which occurred earlier this month has caused outrage in Zimbabwe, coming only days after the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force revealed that 23 elephant calves had been separated from their herds in Hwange and exported to zoos in China and the United Arab Emirates. The Zimbabwean government insists the trade is legal and measures are in place to guarantee the animals’ wellbeing.

 

[Hank2211]

Actually, I turned to walk away and it somehow got caught in his throat. Not sure how that happened . . . but a few painfully strong Heimlich thrusts shot it out and across the yard.

Not sure I see this as a reasonable response in this case . . .

 

[Deleted member 15212]

but the government insists that the lion lived on the reserve and came under its protection.

asking it to prevent the importing of Cecil’s head as a trophy.


Europe needs to ban these lion hunting trophies altogether,” said Luis Muñoz, a Chelui4lions spokesman.


“What hunter, what sort of demented person, would want to kill a magnificent adult lion, known to and photographed by all the park’s visitors?” Muñoz said. “We’re ashamed of the fact that in Spain there are rich madmen who pay for the pleasure of killing wild animals such as lions.”

well, we see where these people obviously stand. it claims the hunt was legal, yet the government says that just because it lived in the park that gave it protection??? hahahahah!!!! ive hunted on public lands bordering parks before and called coyotes right out of the park and had taken them. that doesn't not make it illegal! it was on legal grounds, therefore, it was a legal take.

 

[Big5]

Not sure I see this as a reasonable response in this case . . .

A couple of the preceding posts mentioned how some people “enjoy killing”. In my nearly 70 years on this planet most people I’ve ever heard disparaging hunters for their supposed ‘joy of killing’ were themselves meat eaters. I find both irony and humor in that since they obviously have no problem in turning a blind eye to those in a slaughterhouse who kill for them.

With my initial post I attempted to point that out in the form of a little tongue-in-cheek humor. I’m sorry that my point failed so miserably with you.

Regards, and good hunting to you.

 

[Hank2211]

A couple of the preceding posts mentioned how some people “enjoy killing”. In my nearly 70 years on this planet most people I’ve ever heard disparaging hunters for their supposed ‘joy of killing’ were themselves meat eaters. I find both irony and humor in that since they obviously have no problem in turning a blind eye to those in a slaughterhouse who kill for them.

With my initial post I attempted to point that out in the form of a little tongue-in-cheek humor. I’m sorry that my point failed so miserably with you.

Regards, and good hunting to you.

Not sure what this is about. i got your humour. I was suggesting - tongue in cheek (hence the emoji) - that perhaps letting the anti choke on his meat, rather than perform the Heimlich, would have been the reasonable approach. More humour.

 

[Big5]

Hank,

Sorry, I didn't catch the drift of your post. My mind must be getting more feeble than I imagined. My apology for not getting it. Hell, I didn't even know those little suckers were called emoji's. DUH.

Once again, good hunting to you.

 

[Hank2211]

Hank,

Sorry, I didn't catch the drift of your post. My mind must be getting more feeble than I imagined. My apology for not getting it. Hell, I didn't even know those little suckers were called emoji's. DUH.

Once again, good hunting to you.

No problem; I should have been clearer.