Dreyse 11mm Double Rifle - what did I buy? centerfire or needle gun?

buckstix

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Dreyse 11mm Double Rifle - what did I buy? centerfire or needle gun?

This came up for sale - I like unusual double rifles, so I bought it. But now I'm hoping its not a needle-gun. I won't have it in hand for a couple weeks. Meantime, Can anyone here tell me what I bought. If centerfire, how does it work? What cartridge would it shoot? Any idea when it was made?

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/dreyse11mm-000.jpg

dreyse11mm-000.jpg
 
That’s a needle gun. Very cool looking as well. Never seen one in double rifle form.

If you don’t want it and want to make a Christmas gift out of it, I’d love to add one to my collection !
 
That is to outward appearances a needle fire action and the rifle is essentially the same as the one below, though yours is a much higher grade and in far better condition. Also it has the rather large "firing pin" holes for the needles that one would expect to see. That said, in one of the photographs, I think I see lifters for a rimmed cartridge (there is no photo that I can see of the chambers which would tell the tale).

I do not know anyone that has gone to the trouble to actually make a needle fire cartridge with its internal primer, but perhaps this is indeed an early centerfire.

dreyse.jpeg
 
Thanks for the reply
I made needle fire paper cartridges for an 11mm French Chassepot rifle. It was a real pain in the @? Really dirty and many ignition failures. That's why I am hoping this is some type of center-fire rifle built on a needle fire frame.
 
That’s a needle gun. Very cool looking as well. Never seen one in double rifle form.

If you don’t want it and want to make a Christmas gift out of it, I’d love to add one to my collection !
what is a needle gun please?
 
what is a needle gun please?

Imagine a paper cartridge, but where the primer is not at the back and exposed, but rather just behind the bullet, in front of the powder. In order for the “striker” to ignite the primer, it would have to pierce the whole casing first. Like a needle going through the length of the cartridge.

It was a short but surprisingly well spread development step in modern cartridge design.

Why the primer was at the front I cannot remember.
 
Imagine a paper cartridge, but where the primer is not at the back and exposed, but rather just behind the bullet, in front of the powder. In order for the “striker” to ignite the primer, it would have to pierce the whole casing first. Like a needle going through the length of the cartridge.

It was a short but surprisingly well spread development step in modern cartridge design.

Why the primer was at the front I cannot remember.
Thanks. I just had never heard of this
 
I've met people that actually loaded for pinfire shotguns before, a tremendous pain in the ass but rather cool. But needle fire modern loading is a brand new thing to me. It would be very cool if you could reliably make it go bang and develop a load lethal to deer size creatures. Good luck with your journey.

Knowing nothing about your gun, the action design and bottom lever reminds me of something Collath would have dreamt up. Might need to do some digging on the continent to see if it is feasible to invent needlefire cartridges, or convert the gun to a centerfire version. It may have been converted already as evidenced by the missing strikers?
 

He used Dreyse rifle in some of videos and he reload and have tools and parts like the firing pin can be found quite easy so they are around


Interesting, Puly which developed the self contained cartridge and rifle or shotgun or artillery piece to fire it tried to sell system to Napoleon . Which was refused due to being new and unproven .

Pauly later had two apprentices one named Lefacheux , the other one was Dreyse .
 
Dreyse 11mm Double Rifle - what did I buy? centerfire or needle gun?

This came up for sale - I like unusual double rifles, so I bought it. But now I'm hoping its not a needle-gun. I won't have it in hand for a couple weeks. Meantime, Can anyone here tell me what I bought. If centerfire, how does it work? What cartridge would it shoot? Any idea when it was made?

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/dreyse11mm-000.jpg

View attachment 654610
@buckstix
Judging by the receiver end it's a needle fire. If it was centre fire the firing pin holes would be smaller and the breech block wouldn't need to be that long. Would be more like a vintage double in the breech end
I think you have a great wall hanger as ammo will be impossible to get.
Bob
 
I had the seller take some additional pictures of the breech showing the cartridge extractor - and according to Experts on German Guns from another forum, there is no doubt this is a cartridge double rifle. Likely for the standard 11mm Mauser cartridge (11mm 11.15x60R)


breech-000.jpg
 
I had the seller take some additional pictures of the breech showing the cartridge extractor - and according to Experts on German Guns from another forum, there is no doubt this is a cartridge double rifle. Likely for the standard 11mm Mauser cartridge (11mm 11.15x60R)


View attachment 655268
I am sure they are smart fellows, but I am now totally confused. Those are indeed lifters, but for what sort of rimmed cartridge? The shoulder that should hold the rim seems to be a third of an inch or so within the camber. I do not see how a standard cartridge would seat in this rifle. Also, the design would not help with a typical needle fire cartridge, all of which I have seen were straight wall paper. Perhaps it used some sort of needle fire deign that was wider at the base to facilitate extraction in a double?
 
I am sure they are smart fellows, but I am now totally confused. Those are indeed lifters, but for what sort of rimmed cartridge? The shoulder that should hold the rim seems to be a third of an inch or so within the camber. I do not see how a standard cartridge would seat in this rifle. Also, the design would not help with a typical needle fire cartridge, all of which I have seen were straight wall paper. Perhaps it used some sort of needle fire deign that was wider at the base to facilitate extraction in a double?
It seems that the barrel assembly follows a "track" milled into the floor of the receiver during the closing of the breech. This would pull the chambers, rearward, onto the two round extensions on the breech face. Perhaps a gas seal when using paper cartridges?
 
You have to know the standard 11mm Mauser cartridge has a center protrusion in the case head, making the rim thickness .080" thick. Also, the breech faces of the action protrude into the barrel chambers. A feature likely left over from needle-fire design where a mechanical seal was required for the full paper cartridge. That's why the lifters look thicker than one would expect. Also keep in mind there is no scale to the photos. The head diameter of the 11mm cartridge is slightly over .500" and the rim diameter is .590". I suspect this rifle was a first step in building a cartridge rifle design, that still used components from needle-fire receivers. By the way I load needle fire paper cartridges for my French Chassepot 11mm rifle. Not a big deal.
 
You have to know the standard 11mm Mauser cartridge has a center protrusion in the case head, making the rim thickness .080" thick. Also, the breech faces of the action protrude into the barrel chambers. A feature likely left over from needle-fire design where a mechanical seal was required for the full paper cartridge. That's why the lifters look thicker than one would expect. Also keep in mind there is no scale to the photos. The head diameter of the 11mm cartridge is slightly over .500" and the rim diameter is .590". I suspect this rifle was a first step in building a cartridge rifle design, that still used components from needle-fire receivers. By the way I load needle fire paper cartridges for my French Chassepot 11mm rifle. Not a big deal.
I do know that, which Is why I made the comment I did. Look forward to what you find when it arrives. The 11x60 would be an interesting double.
 
11mm double rifles are my favorite, Here's another of my doubles in 11mm. The rifle weighs only 6 pounds 5 ounces with a 14-3/8" LOP over a checkered Horn Butt Plate. Top of the rib has Gold Inlay; "Chr. Pauli . Munster ." It has Back Action Locks with rebounding hammers, 26" Barrels w/ Gold Ring Inlays at the Breach. It has a Single Standing Rear Sight and a Gold Bead Front Sight. Both Triggers have "Set" features. It has a Horn Trigger guard and a Scalloped Horn Grip Cap. It is Overall Engraved with Game Animals and decorative Scrolls and Vines.

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And here is another of my double rifles in 11mm ... but its combined with 22 hornet.

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